Nurture Lasting Relationships with Board Game Publishers

0:00 hi i'm madame porter and this is my board gaming vlog and recently i've been doing a series of videos inspired by questions from my youtube viewers so this video is inspired by a question from brian who was asking about the relationship between designers and publishers whether i had any insight on that and I actually just I've just made a video to sort of precursor to this video about how to pitch pitch your games to two publishers and what that sort of process is like but I'm talking here more about the broader sort of picture of designers and publishers and how you build a good relationship brian's question reminded me of an article I'd read through mojo nation mojo nation put out a newsletter of I get on Facebook but they've got a really good website moto nation is a UK company that sort of promotes toy and and and game inventors and publishers and tries to bring them together it's a fantastic organization well worth looking into this article was by a man called Steve Reese who is a toy company consultant so Steve Reese had said he'd sat in on many many pitches over many many years on both sides in viña he'd been pitching and he'd received pitches and he said in this industry it's very easy to get bored and blase from pitches because you see so many of them and so you end up with this factory-like approach and you're not worrying about each individual pitch and each individual person just because you see so many of

1:31 them and he was saying that publishers need to think a lot more about how they build positive relationships with designers and because the right design from the right person could make him an awful lot of sales an awful lot of money so he was saying that they should put more focus on the human relationship and interact with the person not just with the concept which is exactly what I was talking about in my previous video about pitching that fee for the designer that's true as well you're not just selling your concept to the publisher you're also trying to get to know them to build a relationship that can go on for years and lasts much longer than that individual game you were trying to show them so he was suggesting that the ways that you build this human relationship as a publisher were to you know point the point the designer in the right direction so talk to them about other publishers might be interested in their game even if you're not maybe advise them on some changes they could make with their game basically be generous with them a generous with your own knowledge and try and help them to develop as a designer he also said that he felt publishers needed to think about clarity in the feedback that they give to designers and I certainly that one certainly chimed with me you know just letting them know a yes or a No or if it's a maybe then letting them know what the sort of process is by which they're going to decide whether it's a yes or a No there's nothing worse in this whole process as a designer and then false hope okay being told it's a maybe and then being kept hanging on for four

3:03 years you know keeping people in the loop and that was another point that Steve Rhys made was about having clarity on the process informing designers about delays informing them about the development and the progress in their game so all of this made me think about what is my wish list what is this stuff that I want from a publisher so the first thing is I want them to be professional I want them to be friendly and I want them to be respectful of me and my games okay so some publishers in fact most publishers are our gamers okay they have come from the hobby through the hobby they've started to self publish their company has grown and they've and they've taken on the business and they've moved it so as a result sometimes they can be very very much like other gamers they can talk about games in the same way they can get excited about games they can be extremely negative about games and you can get the experience where they're very negative about your game and you get the impression that maybe they could have used a little more tact that doesn't mean I don't want the negative feedback I do want the negative feedback but I want it to be done in a way that is respectful of the amount of time and love and craft that I've put into the game and also acknowledging that their taste is just that it's there and that other people may have a different opinion so that's one thing I want from a publisher is basically be polite and be friendly with me remember Who I am yes that's useful you

4:35 know if you if you've met people before on several occasions if you've if you've had communication with them online and this sort of thing then really you know just just remembering who you are and acknowledging you is is a good step in the right sort of direction professionalism means things like be considerate of my time you know I've often been kept waiting quite a lot by publishers with and that's fine absolutely fine you know I've also turned up late for appointments and had to be extremely apologetic about it but that's the key bit isn't it acknowledging that you've that you've wasted someone's time that you've inconvenience them in some way and and and and trying to make amends and arranging another appointment showing that you value the other person not just kind of writing offers right well we've got five minutes now and that's it you know but actually looking at a solution and that maintains that relationship so how do you demonstrate to somebody to a designer that you value that designer I think there are various different ways that you can show it and I think it's important that you show it and not just that you that you kind of feel it so it could be really simple you know I've had publishers who will find me a glass of water on but even better a bottle of water at the convention so I can drink a little bit of it now and I can carry it around and have a drink later that is a wonderful gift to me at a convention I've had publishers give me you know a shot of espresso or or a small coffee or

6:07 something like that great I could really do with that at a convention I've had publishers give me a little box of chocolates or some sweets okay totally unnecessary I really don't need that but it shows that you value me it shows that you care and you've thought about that you're gonna be meeting somebody that you want to build a relationship with I've had publishers give me samples of their games I mean that's wonderful if a publisher can show me this is the sort of games that we make this is the sort of games that we're looking for so let me give you an example so that you can go away and explore it that's great I mean the games that I buy I buy a lot of games and I would say probably 75% of those games I'm buying them because I'm researching what sort of stuff publishers are making right now I've got an idea of a publisher that I want to meet that I want to work with and so the first thing I need to do is play some of their games but so I'll go out and buy some of those games it's wonderful if a publisher can give me a sample I love it when a publisher just says nice things of course I do I'm a human being you know if somebody says to me I loved your game doodle rush they've recognized me they've recognized my game doodle rush that's fantastic it makes me feel good okay if they say to me that they liked my pitching approach if they tell me that the video I sent them in the email was really really helpful to them then that makes me feel good if they tell me things like you know you're the only designer we're meeting at this convention or that you know our catalog is currently full but I really felt like

7:38 I wanted to meet you okay I mean it might be I don't know but it makes me feel good so just making a connection with somebody being generous and kind with somebody and friendly really helps to kind of build those relationships and makes it makes me makes me feel good about working with something I go back to their same publishers time and again just because they've given me a little bit of praise or they give me some chocolate you know it just it just makes me want to build a relationship with that person as that relationship grows so beyond that initial pitch and and and and we're where we're now starting to work together on developing a game then the things that I want my wish list I want people to respond to my emails okay I kind of like I kind of forgiving of people not responding to my emails if then if I haven't worked with them if they don't really know who I am then if they want to ignore my email that's fine I I you know I get cold calls from people and you know on the phone or I get emails from companies that I've really not got any interest in and you know approaching me about trying to sell me things I ignore them so if a publisher ignores me fine okay but I would like it if they responded to my emails I'm actually working with them and I'd like regular updates from them every three months or so I think is about what my my ideal would be I want to know how the game is progressing I don't want to get to the final stages of the game and then suddenly have right here's the game in its finished form with its rollback and I've had no sort of real input into it at all next thing on my wish list

9:08 I want clarity over payment so I want to know you know what I'm going to be paid how I'm gonna be paid when I'm gonna be paid that sort of thing okay I don't need fine detail and I don't even mind if things are a little bit flexible and you know and payment dates move around and stuff like that it's fine I just want to be informed and I want and what people again it's a respect thing I want people to treat the business like aspects the contract the payments in a businesslike manner okay it can be awkward negotiating a contract sometimes you're asking for things that aren't there in the contract you might be asking for an increase in your royalty percentage you might be asking for a clause that goes in there that that wasn't in there initially and even if the answer to those questions is no I don't want to feel that there's any bad feeling about that that's this is a business relationship and I think you know it goes two ways and and people should be willing to ask for things and and discuss things in it in a professional sort of manner um input is a tricky area how much input do I want into my game and the development of my game after I've signed the contract and the up best answer I can come up with is a reasonable amount what I don't want to do is redesign the game I don't want somebody to sign a contract saying that they're taking on my game and then come back to me and say all these things in the game don't work and I'd like you to change them that makes me feel very uncomfortable aside from anything else often with my games I I you know by the time we get to those conversations where they're asking me to change them and Riaan and play tests

10:40 extensive changes I may not have played that game for months because I've moved on I'm designing multiple games at any given time and it's very hard to get back into that mindset of redesigning that game when I've got all these other projects on the go and I thought that the deal was done and dusted but now I'm having to redesign something also the anxiety that comes with that what if I can never get it to the to the place that the publisher wants it to be at so I'm very happy to make tweaks to my games after they've been signed I'm very happy to test them I'm very happy to test ideas that publishers have put to me but I don't want to redesign it from scratch okay I want it to stay roughly the same game that I sold to the publisher and when I say salte that's another issue that I think is a tricky one between a designer and a publisher is the issue of ownership who owns the game you know who owns the game wingspan is that owned by Elizabeth hargrett Hargreaves is that owned by Jamie Stegman the publisher and the answer is a bit of both isn't it the who owns my game pick cocoa is it me is it is it brain games you know brain games put a lot of work into that game okay more work than I did I put I put quite a bit of work in early all I made the game I created I came up the ideas okay - I suspect in terms of sheer man-hours certainly in terms of money and effort and industry knowledge and everything

12:12 else bringing to put the work in there okay my idea is worth a lot and but but but I feel the ownership is both you know we both own that game and I suppose technically the game is on loan when I sign a game to a publisher I am loaning them that game and it is theirs to do with as they wish as long as they treat it with respect it's similar to if you created a piece of art and then you know licensed it to somebody for foot for use you know and you retain the copyright to that art you wouldn't want them to you know completely rework it and draw all over it and change your art because that's going to damage your reputation but ultimately it's always unreasonable in their use of that art then you would be comfortable with that right and I think that's the same with board games in terms of our relationship designers and publishers I'm looking for equality okay I don't want to be treated as a junior partner I you know I'm a professional person in in my in my professional life outside of dentists earth dentistry it's my profession okay I'm a professional person outside of the of the board game industry I I want to be a professional person in the board game industry I've got years and years and years and man-hours invested into this this this hobby this world and you know I've got a lot to offer and I want to go in and talk as equals okay there are our solutions I can come up with there's knowledge that I'll have that publishers don't have there's a load of knowledge they have that I don't have I want to work together on creating a product I don't

13:42 want to be begging and and and and you know pleading for the publishers and to kind of you know guide me through the process and produce my game so I actually I do pick and choose which publishers I work with which publishers I approach there are certain publishers that you know I might not choose to go to because don't particularly like their games or it might be the style of the games it may be that I don't like the artwork of the games and I may feel that their the the quality of the products they produce is a bit cheap and I I wouldn't really want to see that on my own games it might be that I've met with the people and the personalities I just don't jive with them I just feel a little bit like when we're not going to get on I'm not quite getting that that's and that feel for them so you know I definitely pick and choose who I work with and I feel as a professional that's your right to do I don't this be negative because I have wonderful relationships with publishers publisher I meet with publishers all the time who have never produced any of my games and yet I love meeting with them and having a chat with them and finding out what they're doing and what they're and every time there's always that hope that we can come up with something that's going to work for both of us and with some publishers we've never quite got there other publishers I've worked with on you know multiple occasions and I approached a few publishers because I thought it was only fair that publishers get a bit of a say in this video about what they want from designers so I asked and specific questions of the publishers I asked what sort of things can publishers do that make your life easier what are the things that designers do

15:15 that you wish that they and what sort of things could designers do that would make you want to work with them again so the first thing I'm gonna do is play you a video which is a Skype assume call that I had with Gavin uh Co who is the public who runs the publisher and the happy puzzle company who make the genius square and they make my game causal which I co designed with Rob Fisher so the first thing I would say is give us as much information as possible from the outset so we know what we're working with all too often a designer comes to us and makes assumptions that we must know what they're talking about and also sometimes designers expectations are really not very realistic so you know when we've taken on games before where people have then come back to me almost straight away and said do you think yourself fifty thousand in your first year well know that that's not how it works you've got to have realistic expectations you go understand how the system works you're just got to understand that things take time to do and and they take time to get right so to answer your question directly it's really important best thing that the designer can do is give us their idea in full and then give us the space and the free rein to use our expertise to bring it to market in the right way and are there things that you specifically so don't want a designer to do you know

16:47 what are the things that a designer does that makes your life difficult I've actually had a couple of occasions where I've actually pulled out of doing something because the designer just wouldn't let go it was their way or the highway and you sort of explained to them that for whatever reason production reasons practicality the way they want to do it isn't going to work and and they don't always want to hear it and I have dropped two ideas in the past because I've had to turn around to the designer and say I'm so sorry I can't work with you because nothing I ever do is good enough for that and they've got to be able to let go interestingly I've almost had another situation where I work with a designer who literally wouldn't stop sending me information and by the time we'd finished uh his he had sent me almost 500 puzzles for his game that he created and you know any wanted 48 in the 48 that he sent me were absolutely fine I got variations and I got hundreds and hundreds of images and emails and I tried very very nicely to sort of say it's fine we're okay they just wouldn't

18:17 stop and some people just don't listen do you think there's um do you think there's an issue of one thing I've kind of thought about a lot of years I've seen different designers struggle with is the issue of sort of ownership so for example like with Quizzle our game you know you have ownership of quaza laz the happy puzzle company you've put a lot of work into it it's very much your your product and it has your design and everything on it but then I also own it and Rob my co designer he also owns it and so you've got that sort of potential therefore the difficulties when people get very attached to something that they they own and there's nothing clearly which says you know this is this this I mean legally you know you know where you stand legally but in terms of you know feelings and emotions people get can get quite caught up in that coming I think we are operate in a particular unusual way my belief is that for the designer this is their baby this is something which they've created and we have a responsibility to respect that so as was the case with puzzle if there's something that doesn't need changing we're not gonna change it you know if it isn't broken don't fix it we're not gonna make changes for the sake of it and if we do make changes then it's really important that the designer becomes part of that process so that they continue to have that sense of ownership and we have to be open and honest if this thing's a lot practical if those things want to change our obviously acknowledge that you know

19:49 there are some companies out there who don't have the time to do stuff like that but I think that that's why we are the company that we are in giving people that opportunity now depending on the designer well we've got something which is pretty complex and particularly see in the case of quasi everything was straightforward from start to finish it you know we were very very true to your original design which was what we always want to do but sometimes when that's not possible and that particular starts happening when you're dealing with plastic moldings I'll actually bring the designer into the process of discussions with the manufacturer because I want their input and I also want them to feel that that they're involved and I think you've seen that from the point of view that your second game you've done for us you've designed specifically for with us in mind because you've got a grasp of how we work what sort of thing we want and you've got it right so it's a two-way process but it's incredibly important that we respect the work that's come to us and that we keep it as close to the original as we can yes that brings me on to my last question really which is about how do you what makes you want to work with somebody again you know when you work with recurring designers what is it that's that makes you think you know okay this is somebody that I'm happy to work with or I would

21:21 like to work with again I want to see that we are making a difference to that person I want to see that and I could tell you so many stories but at the moment as a game which we're producing which was made 20 years ago by a husband and wife who just did it because they were bored and and it went in the loft and and they spotted a similar type of genre of game that we were advertising in the press and so they went and took it out the Lofton and said do you mind if we send this to you and it was absolutely jaw-dropping ly brilliant for the moment I saw her I was like yes we're going to do that and the joy that is coming to them and it's really tangible that you can see how much it means to them and if you contrast that with personal I talked about who's sent us 500 puzzles for his game I can't cope with it you know it's got to be somebody who listens and when I turn around and say you don't need to send me anymore that they carry on doing it and you know in this case it's eating into my time either give us the game or don't give us the game but if you give us the game you're giving it to us because we know

22:51 how to bring it to market in the right way so let us get on with our bit so there are lots of levels to this I think when you engage with people when you see how happy it makes them and ultimately as well if you get on with them you know and when you know that you're gonna see them you need to be pleased to see them not be looking at your watch and saying how long's like an out of here yeah so yeah it's it's like building friendship so Gavin was extremely generous in giving me his time last week to record that little interview but I also got I also got some communication from Jamie's stigma from had he barked at Jamie stigma from stomer games and had Ibaka from hell batik so I've got them on my on my laptop here from stone my games so Jamie said what can designers do to make your job easier when he said all of the designers with whom he works at ATS tomar games do something amazing that they may not realize and that is communicate with him in the format that he prefers the most which is email super helpful they recognize this early in the relationship when I email them they email me back instead of calling skyping Facebook messaging etc that's how they initiate contact as well and the success of any project is dependent upon that communication and I think that's true every publisher is different you know you can see that I taught to gavin from happy puzzle company usually on the phone or by skype so often by email as well but but some people don't like that

24:24 and you kind of get a feel for that you know you've got to get a feel for how this publisher wants to communicate jamie is also he comments it talks about we talked about this previously about finances and about about being considerate about finances consider and how you communicate about payments and things like this so you know not not chasing publishers down pestering them thoughtful payments but about having you know respectful conversations and sharing information which i think is it's very true you know he says he doesn't want to be guessing out of thin air how much is gonna be paying somebody he wants to to give the information when he has it available another thing he said that I wish designers would refer to our rule books as style guides when writing the preliminary ruling will just ask for Scott style guide that makes the editing process much easier later in the process of course as a publisher this is something I should bring up with designers so yeah so he wants the the the rules written in a format that he can work with that stomer games uses and I think if you go back to my video about writing rules and talk about that trying to kind of write your rules in a format for a publisher that you've got in mind you know if you've got a publisher in mind then you base your your rules format on on the style that they've they've used in the past what makes you want to work with a designer again he says it's about how they receive constructive criticism and ideas I throw

25:54 a lot of thoughts that are designers throughout their development process and I don't want them to say yes to all of them or no to all of them but I do want them to read and consider my input and often to test it so I guess that comes back to what I was talking about about how much input do I want I don't want to be redesigning the game from scratch but I don't mind doing some tests and I don't mind making some tweaks and I guess it you know it goes both ways then doesn't it and you have to both directly be considerate of what the other person needs so then had a bar cat also sent me an email from from hell fatique so Haddie said what can designers do to make your job easier he said with so many games hitting the market design a game changing game design something that's more risky that matters and he sees value in designers promoting themselves promoting their games both online and offline so you know that's that's what this channel is about really isn't it I'm trying to be present in the industry even when I can't meet with publishers meet with other designers go to conventions I like to produce these videos and and it helps to keep my my games sort of visible and out there as well and I do attend attend toy bears recently I was with happy puzzle company for several days at the London tyfa promoting my game Quizzle and so I think it's useful to be willing to do those sort of things as a designer what's next designers ok so understanding that the success rate for

27:25 games is not very high and that the designer publisher partnership is about finding the recipe for success together and I think that's true I think there's a lot of risk in this you know there's there's a lot of there's a high chance that your game will not succeed and you can't put that all on the publisher ok everybody's in it together trying to create these games you know in a very very crowded market hady is not Haddie's as hell fatigue don't send prototypes back to designers they review so many games that it would be very expensive and time-consuming I would imagine to do so and and this comes back to what I was saying in my pitching video that that I posted earlier that's I think you've got to consider when you give a prototype to a publisher that it is a gift it's not a you know you shouldn't be expecting it back it's lovely if they can send it back and a lot of publishers do but I don't think it's it's a given and had he also says that printing play files are you know he does accept games by print and play files but having a physical prototype is so much more helpful to him because it means he can get it played so much quicker and start getting that feedback back to you so when asked what makes you want to work with the designer again had he said audacious creativity creative ambition positive energy and he said we liked it so much when we worked with designers again and again and one

28:56 publisher that I've worked with on multiple occasions well two occasions in fact is brain games who made my game pick Coco and my cane doodle rush and I have another game in the works with them which hopefully will be out at some point in the next year or well who knows how long in this kovin world so Yanis grunter from brain games also replied to my questions so what can designers do to make your job easier Yanis said if they can help out with solving something in the game that we the publisher think should be changed in the game or added like a small expansion or a rules change if we have a contract signed the author does not have to do this but it does help a lot if they do and of course this is one of the things I mentioned earlier that I'm very happy to make tweaks to games but I don't want to completely redesign the game and that delicate sort of balance of being helpful have been not completely spending all of your time on redesigning stuff that that you've already made what designers do which you wish they wouldn't Yanis got hung on that one he said he's never met an author that has done anything that he wished they wouldn't have done which is very kind of him to say maybe it's just that I'm that difficult author and so so he's he's struggling to to say anything for fear of upsetting me what makes you want to work with a designer again first and foremost ease of communication and compromises and a well selling game course as board game publishing is a business sometimes the company might

30:27 have delays on some things because of different reasons and it does help if the author understands and can make compromises and it works both ways sometimes the publisher has to do it too and and again I think we can see there that the answer really is communication and being adaptable and flexible with each other it's about responding to each other's needs responding to each other's emails in in in format that people want giving the information they want being clear being open being polite but largely it's just about communicating communicating with each other if you enjoyed the video please do watch some of my others earlier I posted a video about pitching to publishers that might be interesting if you found this video interesting but there are lots of videos about all sorts of game design topics and about board games in general on my channel Adams board game Wales on Twitter I'm at board game Wales and on board game geek I'm Adam 78 thank you very much for watching all the best