Top 7 Board Wargames | With Designer Sam London | Part 1

0:00 Hi everybody, I'm Zillow Blitz and welcome to another episode in top seven. This is a series where we bring in board war game designers and other notables and ask them to talk about their top seven war games. Not that they are working on but that they enjoy playing. In this episode I'm pleased to welcome Sam London. He is an upcoming board game designer and if you don't know who he is now, in a couple of years I guarantee you will know who he is. He has three games in the pipeline at GMT Games and I am thrilled to have him in for this interview. Before we start out, this video is sponsored by Noble Knight Games, who is a board game retailer in Wisconsin that ships all over the United States and globally. So, if you are interested in some of the games that Sam is talking about in this interview, they may have copies of these games available for sale. Fantastic service. They also buy and sell used war games. So, if you have some war games that you're looking to clear off your shelves, you might want to reach out to them. They pay for shipping. They'll quote you a price and get store credit or cash for the games that you're no longer playing.

0:57 With that said, let's start with our interview with Sam. This was a wide-ranging conversation, so I am splitting it up into two parts. Let's get started with part one. Hi everybody, welcome. I've joined here today by Sam London, designer from GMT Games, who's got a number of games on the docket. Thank you so much for joining, Sam.

1:15 Oh yeah, thank you for having me.

1:16 Yeah, excited to have you here. We're going to talk about your top seven war games and a few side quest questions along the way, too. Uh, but I'm excited to hear more about your gaming tastes. And shall we jump right into it with number seven, your seventh most favorite war game?

1:33 Sure. But before we do that, I I wanted to go in on a little bit of a disclaimer because uh viewers are going to notice there's entirely too many GMT games in my top seven. They're actually uh six of this top seven. Um I I wanted

1:48 here because it's a big library, but yes. I wanted to note um before uh uh getting into it that there was actually other publishers games in my top 10. Um my number eight was Advanced Squad Leader. It just the way that they worked out and then I did like I was thinking I actually was contemplating doing some like artificial massage a little more balanced but I ended up deciding against it. So,

2:13 well, it's always it's always good. There are a lot there there's a lot of advanced squad leader fans out there. So, they're always happy to hear that if it didn't make the top seven, it's at least at number in the top 10 or so.

2:24 I I I pay a lot of it uh lip service to Advanced Squad Leader because it is um you know, one of the primary inspirations for my game Firefight Tactical. And so, I make sure I'm very clear about that all the time. Um but at the same time, it's like one because there's like should I push it in there? So it's like they they they feel the love and I'm like I I can't do it. But

2:44 it was almost there.

2:46 Truth in reporting almost there. So number eight advanced squad leader. Let's jump up though too. Number seven then.

2:52 Yes. So my number seven is a GMT game. And um it is Fire in the Lake by Mark Herman and Varuna. And I am um I'm a huge fan of the coin series in general. Um,

3:08 and a Fire in the Lake, of course, is the coin series game, the counterinsurgency game that focuses on the Vietnam conflict.

3:14 Yes, correct. And, um, so it's it's the fourth game in the series. Um, I actually own at least one copy of every game in the coin series currently. Um,

3:25 we were talking a little bit about your extensive game collection before we record. Yeah,

3:29 but it's it's not my most played one and to some extent this is like a placeholder for like the entire coin series. It is my favorite, but it's um like as far as the one I've played the most, I think a lot of people are this way. I've played Cuba Libre the most because it's the just the easiest to the table. But um but Fire in the Lake has a very special place in my heart because first off, I'm interested in the Vietnam War as a conflict. Um, I also really appreciate the four player model of it as Via Kong, NVA, Arvin and the United States. Um, and it's also, you know, the coin series for those who don't know is um very asymmetrical in nature.

4:12 And so the the interplay between um the various players is speaking broadly very correctly semic-op. That's like a thing, you know, with like design, game design in general is that semi co-op is extremely hard to do properly.

4:29 And you know, you'll you'll hear, you know, people, oh, this they tried to do it over here and it didn't work. They tried to do it over here and it didn't work. But no one's paying attention. Well, I shouldn't say nobody. Plenty of people are paying attention, but I mean like the broader, you know, Euro audience isn't noticing, oh well, Vulco's over here and he did it flawlessly right away and it just keeps rolling. But um but the interplay of the asymmetry in um Fire in the Lake is what draws me the most to it. Um I just really like the interplay and how the uniqueness of the sides. The United States in particular really like always stuck with me. It's like no, they they have what they need to do the job, but that's their victory condition is to do the opposite is is to win the war without being there, you know? And like that's just such a cool um you know uh kind of prisoner's dilemma to find yourself in. Um and and then the interaction between them. There's there's there's a there's a lot to love in that game. It is definitely

5:31 in my opinion it is among the heavier coin games. Like it's

5:35 I've heard that it's not a good starting point. If you're if you've never played a coin game, something like Cuba Libre is probably the better direction to go than than Fire in the Lake. But I've heard a lot of people, you know, sing its praises, too.

5:47 Yeah. Yeah. If you're if you're familiar with the series, you kind of, you know, you're you're already, you know, have a certain comfort level with it and you're interested in in Vietnam, it's a Oh, it's such a good game. I've never had a bad play of it.

6:01 Yeah. Fantastic. Let's uh let's jump up to number six.

6:06 Number six, I put in here this is another GMT game. Surprise, surprise. Um, this is Atlantic Chase by Jerry White. Um, so this is a um like a strategic level uh war game of the Battle for the Atlantic. And what makes it so cool, I guess, before I get into why because it's it's it's so cool and it's so innovative. It's just bananas. I've talked to Jerry about a lot. which is just how do you even come up with that

6:38 is um I actually love uh hidden movement games.

6:43 Um it's one of my favorite uh mechanics and it's um it doesn't really matter to me what the setting is. that's just it it tends to yield really memorable um

6:53 game experiences for me and that's what it's always about for me is you know can are you going to have fun and is it going to be a memorable game and um so the thing is you know having played them so many times then I sit down and I play Atlantic Chase for the first time and I'm just like this is an entirely different way to approach this like no one would ever think of this you know and it's to to to get to people who aren't familiar with the game the idea is you're you're you're sending, you know, the Allies are sending convoys across the Atlantic and the um the Germans are trying to come in and and you know, interdict them. And the what's so cool about it is there's none of the ships are in a fixed location until they're actually encountered. And so everything is represented as trajectories.

7:42 And then it's just when trajectories converge, then you end up finding out whether you showed up early, late, or you, you know, got them like, you know, perfectly on time. And so the um the mental puzzle that comes about because of that

7:59 and then kind of it's I I I it's really hard to just explain to people who haven't played the game, you know, but there's like it's almost like there's a little bit of like

8:09 um what's a good analogy to use? Um, it's like an Easter egg or so, you know, where it's just kind of like, okay, I'm looking and then you find it's like, I got it. And then you get to actually have battle, you know, you actually get to resolve the cool. It's like, oh, this, yes, we're actually going to do it now. And it's um, I just it's I I I love it both for because I love the topic. It's a thing that I um there's there's so many games about like yubot in the North Atlantic,

8:37 you know, but there aren't that many games about the actual like running of ships across the Atlantic, which I actually to me it's that's the other half of the story. I need that other half of the story.

8:51 Of course, is in there.

8:53 Yeah.

8:53 Yep. Yep. And do you play it mostly two play or do you play it solo or do you play it both?

8:57 Um I play it both. Um, I ended up

9:00 that I think is the other accomplishment of the game is that it takes this hidden movement concept and enables it for solo play because hidden movement and hidden information is often you know that's very true antipathy you can you can't just do it with with a solitire mode and he's built it so that it works extremely well as a soliter game experience too.

9:18 Absolutely. And I mean it's it's so I I love it from a game play ex standpoint, but the other reason I love it is because it's one of those things where it's like um it hasn't made as big of a splash as deck building, you know, with Donald X Vagarino, but it is the kind of thing where it's like you see a designer that does something bonkers

9:40 and it just makes you like maybe there's still, you know, something out there to go for that's like, you know,

9:47 right,

9:47 untrodden, you That's that example there.

9:51 And I guess a follow-up question would be, are you as excited for Pacific Chase as as I am? Because I think if I had to pick a theater, Pacific Atlantic, I'm 80% Pacific, 20% Atlantic. I just I just love the idea of the Pacific theater.

10:05 From a from a naval perspective, 100%. From the from the like the cat and mouse, the cat and mouse for me as is very much naturally geared to me towards convoys versus submarines.

10:17 Okay? you know, but from a general naval perspective, yes, 100%. So, I am I'm very excited for Pacific Chase.

10:24 Yeah, I'm very curious to see how it

10:26 The reason I do that asterisk is because it's like it's the kind of thing where I don't I don't I'm not

10:32 I'm I'm rejecting it as a dichotomy where it's like, okay, well, I prefer Pacific Chase, so I don't need Atlantic Chase. For me, the stories are so different that I'm

10:40 Yes,

10:41 I'm very

10:41 I'm excited to see this system though, especially a system that can handle solitire play to this degree of elegance to capture some of that cat and mouse, the hunting that's involved with carrier operations in the Pacific, you know, midway with the system. I can't wait.

10:53 That's going to be so cool. That's going to be so cool.

10:55 I think it's it's going to be fantastic. So, um well, let's take a little break here from our our top seven if we could. uh because there's there's a lot going on in your design life and and just for people who haven't haven't been following the channels, I've mentioned Sam's name a bunch of times. We've met I think three times now at SD Histcon out in San Diego and the first time

11:19 we also met [clears throat]

11:21 Yes. Yes. So that's four I guess four times now. Yes. Yes. And so, uh, but the first time we met, you actually had a game there that is currently, I believe this is your first GMT game, and it's on the cusp of becoming a real thing in players hands, right?

11:36 I'm doing Finaling right now. I am very excited to get the game.

11:41 Talk a little bit about it. Yeah.

11:42 Um, so yeah, my first game that's uh going to be coming out is called Firefight Tactical. It is a tactical squad level World War II game. Um I so what's actually really funny is I'm writing the design notes also right now for Firefight Tactical, you know, is GMT design notes for those who don't know is almost like director commentary, you know, on like a, you know, Blu-ray track.

12:06 And so the um going in and actually like writing up like, oh, this is how I came up with Firefight Tactical and all this stuff. I go back and I there's um I'm sure you've heard the joke, but there's the thing with uh tactical systems where people are like, "How many tactical systems do you really need?" And the answer is always at least one more, you know, and because, you know, I have entirely too many tactical games, but when I was

12:31 actually on just on a side note, I'm on a mission to play all of the major World War II tactical systems and I feel like I'm

12:38 I'm not sure. I think it's expanding universe. I'm not sure if I'm going to get there. You know, the major major, right? But anyway, yeah, I interrupted. Sorry.

12:44 That is No, no worries. That was a tall order. I'm not I'm not even sure I've played all the ones I own. I've certainly played the biggest ones, but the um anyway, when I was uh first came up with Firefight Tactical, I I asked myself um because I'd already been designing games for a couple of decades really. And then I was like, why have I never tried to design a war game? And I'm like, well, if I was going to design a war game, what would it be? And well, I really love tactical games. I do a tactical game first. And so I fig, okay, what would what would I need to do to make it so different? And I was, well, you know what? I'll was thinking, you know, tactical gaming has a certain orthodoxy within um you know, our our hobby. And so thinking, well, okay, what how would I build off it? And um I'm not I'm not going to spoil later in my list. I'm not going to do it. It's very difficult at this moment, but but I was trying to think of games that have broken that orthodoxy before and and how I would, you know, kind of continue in that direction. And um what I ended up deciding on was it would be really cool to put a dice draft as the driving mechanism for a tactical game. And so that's how Firefight Tactical works is you have this dice pool and you and your opponent are alternating drafting dice and the dice depending on what you draft will decide what type of orders you can execute with your units in the given scenario. Um, the other kind of um telltale sign I guess of firefight tactical trademark is is that it's um not quite on a board. You play on very large uh grid of cards that represent

14:16 the terrain and so those are um like upfront style. the terrain can be kind of um not fixed as you can kind of it's still in the same your position is still in the same relative position to an enemy position but it turns out there might be a more tactically viable you know spot to be in within that kind of zone that you're in. And so there's it's it's got very fluid engagement and then the uh um the dice draft adds a really cool layer to it also.

14:47 Yeah. And I get a chance to play it. It was two years ago right before you I think you're heading out to leave the conference and so we I think we scrambled through maybe a 30 minute game where we get I got a chance to say and that that was one of the things that struck me was just the fluidity of the game, the accessibility of the game and yet it was still challenging you with all the tactical decisions you would expect of a tactical system. So I immediately placed my order for it after after we talked.

15:12 What's what's really funny is I you know I I um I don't know if I should share this. I'm going to because I'm an overly honest person. Um, I consider Firefight Tactical a tremendous achievement of mine as far as I'm very happy with the game, but it is a one of the greatest failures on my part as a designer because what I was

15:38 Sounds like a story. Yeah.

15:39 So, because what I originally set out to do was to try to make Firefight Tactical very accessible. I wanted to make it kind of a next step after Undaunted.

15:48 But the thing is I love the tactical genre too much. And so I was like, "No, I'm I'm I'm I I missed in my original goal of like trying to aim at like this very specific watered down kind of tactical game and instead ended up making the tactical game I want to play,

16:09 you know? And so it's it really I where I still think it's good in that general regard is it does ease you into it very

16:18 yeah it's got a progression of scenarios like the first scenario introduces a sampling of the mechanics and then it extends off until you get because it's a campaign through Normandy. Right.

16:26 Right. And so it's that beginning those first couple of scenarios are very you could you would have no problem getting just about anybody to play that. However, I did, you know, it it me being me, it's like by the end, it's like, no, you have your armor in there, you have your artillery, you have to actually worry about, you know, um, all these kind of things as far as like, well, actually, I don't have, you know, line of sight for my mortar, but they can use spotters. And so, I have like all that stuff in there. Um, and it's so it's it is definitely when you get by the time you make it to the end of that game, it is very much a tactical gamer's tactical game. Right.

17:05 Um, and so I'm Yeah, I've been, you know, playing the heck out of it as I've been, you know, doing, you know, final cut of the rules and everything.

17:13 Right. Right. And I think I'm I probably saw the the that initial level of complexity, which is I mean I think you taught me how to play in 105 minutes and we were up and there was someone else who was playing, but we were up and playing the game. We were playing the game. maybe not playing it well, but we're playing the game in about 15 minutes of your explanation. So, I saw that accessible part, but you know, I think that type of design model where you can fold in the complexity is very much appreciated. People love that, you know, so you can

17:37 Yeah. I mean, it's I, you know, I wanted to make it a game where um there wasn't really a deep end. like it's it just goes. And so the um you know a thing I fought for um originally I actually I had intended the game would have cost twice as much as it does but originally the game um included a random scenario generator which I was really excited about but it would I would have had to double the components in order to handle the level of flexibility I built into the random scenario generator. I'm still hoping to do that in a future, excuse me, future expansion, but I did put the rules for the scenario generator in there. So, it's not a random scenario generator anymore, but you can build your own scenarios, right? Um, and so I I really wanted to highlight um and actually uh I think it was two years ago or something when it was like shortly after it was up on P500. I did a um a uh series on GMT um inside GMT that was Firefight Fridays and I ended up walking through every scenario in the game and I was explaining my design principle for each of the scenarios. Wasn't it was it was like I would honestly say it's probably equal but maybe a little bit more so on the on the history front. I'm like okay I want to represent this engagement but at the same time I'm trying to kick the tires on the system. so that players will play it and go, "That's really cool." So, I'll give you an example. So,

19:08 um the uh in Firefight Tactical, at the end of every game turn, you add another die to the pool. And so, because you're doing a dice draft, that means every complete game turn the size of the turns are getting longer. So, there's more and more action as it goes on. And so, one of the ones I wanted to play with was what if that didn't work that way in one scenario? And so for the fell's pocket scenario where it's the Americans in Argentan there, the timer goes in reverse. So you actually start with all the dice in play and then at the end of every turn a die comes out of the pool and so you have limited resources as the battle goes on. [snorts] And so I was really trying to like do weird stuff with every scenario to try to inspire people to be like, "Oh, I'm going to throw a scenario together that would be, you know, really cool and include all the stuff that I want to have in it and,

19:58 you know, and have fun with it." So that's I'm I'm very I'm very happy that the system is amendable to that.

20:05 Why I remember when we were talking I mean to just to to build up I remember when we were talking those were the two things that popped immediately to my mind is this is so ripe for any expansion you want to do with it. I mean the other campaigns in World War II you could even go beyond World War II and do other wars as well. But then the idea, oh this looks like it would be so easy to take this and as a sandbox and just design something as you want it. just play around, make some make some of your own scenarios, too. So, I'm looking forward to it.

20:32 There's conversations that are happening around some of those things that you just said.

20:36 Yeah, there's definitely

20:39 not an official announcement.

20:41 Um, but, you know, so long as people have an appetite for it, I I have big plans for that system. So,

20:46 yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that I know people are going to be excited to get it and that should be within the next couple of months or so, I think. Right. Well, maybe.

20:52 Well, no. It'll it'll probably go to the printer in the next couple to be fair.

20:59 It'll be I I'm barring some craziness that could disrupt things. Yes. I anticipate 2026.

21:06 Awesome. Fantastic. Yeah. Uh shall we jump back to our top seven with

21:11 Sure.

21:12 So, let's see. So, I got my cheat sheet. Yeah.

21:15 Number five, unfortunately, because I already spoiled the number, is the one not GMT.

21:22 And so that is going to be Hornet Leader by Dan Versen Games. Um, Hornet Leader is kind of, again, I I'm cheating here a little bit. It's like a placeholder for the entire Leader series.

21:34 This one surprised me when I saw this because I think I I had thought of you as more as a a two-player, multiplayer gamer that thought we wouldn't see a solitude game here. So, it's funny you say that. I for [snorts] like almost the entirety of my gaming life have hated solitire games.

21:52 Yeah, because I think I thought I had that in my head that when we talked. It's like you just don't Yeah.

21:57 So, the the game the one game that got through that was uh years ago, however many years ago, I can't even remember. Um this is probably 10 plus years ago was actually Yubot Leader by Dan Versa.

22:10 Okay. And so, um, I played that and I was like, "Wow, this is really cool." And I'll I'll actually never one of my most memorable game sessions I ever had period was a session of Yubot Leader where my like ace veteran you know sub captain went down with uh like and then the rookie made it out with like a sure thing no problem contact that ended up being like oh I thought it was a liner but it was a destroyer and it was it was just disaster and so that Like I I remember when I you know rolled through the whole thing and my ace you know went down with the ship and I was like actually it was probably the first time to that point where I was playing a non video game an analog you know board game and I just sat there for like a couple minutes and I was so depressed because I was just like

23:06 what like that huh and it you know it was I didn't I didn't know games could do that you know and um and So, uh, I've I was always pretty connected with the Leader series. Um, what ended up blowing that out to now I actually am open to solo in general because you'll notice all of my games have a solitire. Um, what really opened up for me was actually the Final Girl series. Um, Final Girl got me into like, oh wow, solo games can be really cool. And then I start to like

23:37 I started playing that last year. I totally agree. But yeah. Um, and so now I'm I'm totally pulled a 180 and I I can love um solo games now. But um back specifically to the Leader series, um the reason Hornet Leader uh gets the spot is because it is my most played one um at this point. Um I I've really played the heck out of that game. Um the uh it's it's like it is a surreal experience to like actually run a mission in Hornet Leader and just like turn on like Danger Zone, run through the whole thing. It's just so cool. Um for those who don't know, um the leader series kind of varies. There's like multiple, you know, iterations of the leader series at this point, but the kind of the I think they call it air leader is the name of the like general aviation one, but the hornet leader is a part of that. And really all you're doing is you have these cards that are your your pilots

24:36 and their aircraft. And then at the beginning of missions, you outfit them. They can only afford a certain amount of weight and armaments. And then you send them out and then you just have this board that's just the various appro. a relative position of your approach to the target and then you just go in and try to blow up the target or you know sometimes there's slightly different um you know objectives there and then just see what happens and it um it's honestly it's brutal. It's just you know it is it is called spade of spade. very lucky. You know, it it comes down to the roll of the die and sometimes you just roll poorly and you know, somebody's out of flares and that's it. And and it's uh but it's it's it my whole thing this is as a gamer and as a designer is about trying to make as I mentioned memorable game experiences.

25:27 And there's there's there's a few ways to go about doing that. And my personal favorite is what I call emergence storytelling. And that's when you don't even there's it's it's not it's not emergent storytelling if you're reading from a book and it just tells you this is the story. And it's not emergent storytelling if you're having to go and say I'm going to run a narrative in my head of what's going on to try to give meaning to this. It's it's this kind of, you know, very difficult to put your finger on thing that the leader series tends to do very well where it just provides you all of the context and it just it just comes to you as you are playing it like wow I got really invested in this and in these characters and everything and it's just some cards and you know a die and so uh the leader series is so fantastic at that. Well, for me too, the Sherman Leader, which is, you know, that one of the tank games, the ground games for the leader series, was the first game that I bought when I got back into board war games about 5 years ago, kind of the middle of CO. I was like, "Wow, do they even make these a game?" And I found make these type Sherman Leader Solitire game. It's co sure, I got to get something solitire. And it was the same thing. You know, you get so attached to your your leaders and the units and the story that like literally emerges because every mission, you just don't know what's going to happen. It could be a cakewalk or it could be the the absolute hellscape that you don't want to be a part of and you lose your key guys and

26:57 it's just such a fantastic way to I think experience gaming. So,

27:02 and it's also I mean they're they're generally speaking, you know, compared to some of the other games on this list. The the rules overhead for them is really not that bad.

27:10 You know, I first came back to wargaming after being gone for 20 25 years and really have you know, I guess I played Rise and Fall of the Third like Avalon Hill and some squad leaders. I had been into some harder stuff. Uh, but I found it it was super easy to pick up, too.

27:22 Yeah, they're really fantastic for that. I'm I'm I'm making myself want to play it now. The biggest problem is it's it is one of those games that um you know, I do tend to want to leave out and it's I don't I don't I don't uh have a a uh I'm not flush with surface space that, you know, small people aren't going to mess with. So,

27:41 yes. Yes, for sure. And before we forget too because we're talking about soliter now, Firefight Tactical, just to make sure we don't forget because it's important for people that because there are ton of soliter gamers that watch the channel, has a full soliter mode, right?

27:53 The Firefight Tactical Solo bot is something I'm extremely proud of. And the reason is it beat you, right?

28:01 I I need to I need this is a huge disclaimer. This I'm probably gonna scare off at least half of the solo gamers right now, but I'm going to do it anyway.

28:10 my um my sensibilities for solo and co-op gaming. If I sit down and I play a solo or co-op game and it I just don't even know what I'm doing and I play and I beat it,

28:21 I don't literally, but I just about throw it straight into the trash. Like, okay, if I'm if this is supposed to be how I engage with this game,

28:31 uh and I just got it but got through it and I don't even know what I'm doing. How much gameplay am I really going to get out? like how, you know, how much fulfillment am I going to get from being better at this game? Right now, first off, even if you beat Firefight Tactical Bot, please don't throw the game out cuz it's still good. But, um, having said that, Firefight [snorts] Tactical Bot is brutal. I played three scenarios of Firefight Tactical today. I'm the designer. I played three games of Firefight Tactical today. I won one of them against the solo bot, and it was frankly very lucky. Its position was garbage in that game. and it never managed to improve its position. But the the first one was terrible. The third one, I'm going to share this story because it just happened. It was so ridiculous. So the the bot in Firefight Tactical comes in two dispositions. There's cautious bot and there's reckless bot. And the you can mix and match them however you want to try to, you know, it'll be reckless in some circumstances, cautious in certain circumstances. Um today I was like, I'm just going to get in the scenario real quick. And I just played against Reckless Bot. And so the scenario we played was um uh it's the paratrooper landings at night around St.

29:38 Margle um on D-Day. And so the bot was playing as the Americans and I was playing as the Germans. The Germans are surprised it's night. They have no idea where anybody is. And so the way that scenario works is that whereas in the other scenarios you have force A is here, force B is here, and then they engage here. You have the Germans and they set up their position and then you just have random paratroopers landing all over the place. And so, um, and then they're trying to, you know, they're trying to wreck an order and then move on to St. Mary Glaze. And so, the bot has no control just like the human player would has no control over where the paratroopers land. And so, the paratroopers land and I look at this position and I go, "Huh, you know what would be really crazy is if Reckless Bot did something nuts, like try to charge this MG position." And then that's what Reckless Bot did. And so now they're engaged in melee. And I'm like, "Well, you know what? I got a lot of guys there. So, I don't think there's any problem unless the other this squad over here converges and ignores its objective effectively to try to join this melee.

30:38 And then that's what Recklessbot did. And I'm like, okay, well, now I'm going to move my officer in there to lead this melee and try to see if, you know, we can ek this out. It gave me advantage and I'm like, okay, this will be great. and I roll the dice and I biffed it and all the Germans died and I instantly I instantly lost the scenario. I'm just like, "Oh, okay. Well, so yeah, Firefight Tactical Bot does not pull punches." It is.

31:05 Yeah. Well, one of one of my favorite games is D-Day at Omaha Beach. One of my favorite solitary games, which has that same masochistic type of you're going to lose and just hope you do better than the last time you lost type of element to it. So, I feel like there's that magic level of hard in a solitary bot that just makes it a special experience. I'm very much looking forward to it. So,

31:24 yeah. If you're Are you familiar with, you know, the Dark Souls, uh, you know, or like

31:29 Yes. Yes. Yes.

31:30 I've not played very much of them because it's a lot of fast twitches that I don't have now, but yeah.

31:35 Somebody did a Kickstarter. I I have no idea. I don't remember the name of the game. I don't remember the name of the designer, but it was so inspired that they did a uh the game was you're designing a game like Dark Souls. And so the idea was you're so you're you're designing the level and then this is a board game to be clear. You're designing the level and then you have you know QA testers that are like a deck of cards or something that run the level. And so the thing is a perfect score is one person beats the level only out of all of the testers. And then it's like if no one beats it, it's no good. But if a bunch of people beat it, it's no good either. Your ideal is only one person managed to beat it. And I'm not saying that's what I try to do my tactical bot, but I definitely am leading towards like no, I want I want people to, you know, I want to give them, you know, run for their money. So

32:24 yeah. Yeah. Which creates the depth I think that that people are looking for, too. So

32:29 um let's let's move up to uh number four.

32:31 So number four,

32:33 alltime favorite war games.

32:34 So this is a game I love to death and I have played a ton of this game. And this is not a um this is a GMT game. The rest of them are. Um but this one is uh not just paying lip service to my friend Mike Burcelli, who happens to be my developer on a lot of my games. I absolutely love his game, Tank Duel. Um it is one of the best times I've had gaming. Um Tank Duel also has uh so for those who don't know, try So Tank Duel is a card game. It's basically a card game. You have some boards and you have some trackers, but for the most part, you're playing from a deck of cards and you are um just controlling tanks. Each player has their own tank and you're just it's it's you could think of as like World of Tanks the the board game.

33:23 Um it is so much fun um for a variety of reasons. Um I would actually say and I've I've told him this multiple times. He's probably sick of hearing it every time I start to gush about World of Tanks. My favorite thing about World of Tanks is that it has it achieved this um design sweet spot that's just beautiful, which is because it's a tank. It wouldn't work if it wasn't a tank. Because it's a tank, when you attack, you have this procedure you go through that's okay, did I hit him? And then what what kind of penetration did I have? And then what kind of damage actually occurred to the tank if I hit him? And there was good enough penetration to get through the armor. And the thing is that if it was anything else, like if I was attacking with a sword, if it was a fantasy game, you know, it would be like, "Oh, this is cumbersome, you know, like this is I don't need this much detail for this."

34:20 But because it's a tank and you're only firing so often, it naturally creates this like everybody stands up at the table moment where you're flipping the card to be like, "Oh, okay. What kind of damage is it?" It's like you [clears throat] know, your gunner's dead and then it's, you know, you got to change. So then it's everything feels so impactful that it kind of

34:42 uh uh organically recreates the weight

34:47 of the main gun of a tank, you know, as you resolve it. It's so cool. But then um the other thing uh distinction why Tank Duel is uh such a favorite for me is Tank Duel is maybe literally if it's not the one then there's one other one that's escaping me. Um war game that I've managed to cuz I have a a a personal like a home convention that I do a couple times a year. Um and it's it's it's all genre. It's not war game specific. And um Tank Duel is the one game that I've managed to get large groups of nonwar gamers to get into and have a great time with,

35:27 you know, and so that's just that's so cool to be able to have that kind of moment, you know? They're not they're not like us, you know. They're not going like, "Oh, that's really cool that this is how he represented that, you know, the STO doesn't have a turret, you know, like they're not getting and stuff, you know, but they are um, you know, having a great time with it, you know, with everybody else." And so that's

35:51 I wouldn't bother because I haven't played tank yet. I think it's been out of print for a while. I think there's a new version. I think the new printing's coming up. So that was I was thinking of taking advantage of that. But it does strike me as a game that would be you you instantly understand what you're trying to do. You're in a tank, you're trying to knock out the other tank, and it's it's a game that's easy to grasp, I think, from that that level.

36:09 Remind me if uh at San Diego, did you play I You played my little mini game that's like an homage to Tank Duel.

36:18 Yes, I wanted to ask. Yeah, I was going to bring that one up. Yeah.

36:21 Did you play my Rummy game?

36:23 No, I did not.

36:24 You left. I think you left right before we played that. That game is also and that one's much less related to Tank Duel, but it is very inspired by Tank Duel of just like is there a way to get a bunch of non-war gamers with war gamers to the table playing a war game they don't realize it's a war game?

36:41 Okay, great.

36:43 But uh but yeah, so um yeah, what about the little mini one? That's yeah,

36:48 not sure that's going anywhere, but however much you want to talk about

36:52 because you we when we were to just to give context for people watching when I was at San Diego this past November, we were talking I think it was the morning I was leaving or the last day I was there and you had mentioned a Tank Duel game that's a it's basically Tank Duel Light, right? It's a streamlined version of Tank Duel that you can play in about 15 20 minutes and we did a fourperson game.

37:12 Yeah. Two versus two tanks, but I mean you taught it to us and we played in 15 minutes I think. Yeah. And so that was my that's been my exposure to Tank Duel, but that in in this at that point in time, you had mentioned it might be something that becomes a reality at some point in time.

37:26 I would love to um it would need to be it's it's kind of a weird thing because I designed that game to be I think it's I think it's literally 18 cards. It might be 25 now.

37:36 It's just a deck of cards, right?

37:37 Like it's it's a tiny little thing. And so I don't really know what kind of publisher is, you know, would be interested in that kind of thing. But it is I, you know, I designed it specifically to be scalable as like kind of a convention or a party game because that 25 card deck, you know, I think it's 25 uh is is handles four player, but then you just buy two and then it handles a player, you know, just it just scales really um really quickly. And that one was um so I actually talked to Mike about that game as I was working on it because I was like, I I don't want to step on your toes a little bit, you know, like I I don't want to work on this without your blessing. And he was he was fine with it. And so I just kind of threw it together and it was a um Yeah, I that one's that one's pretty cool because it's you know it's I mean the turns are like a few seconds

38:23 you know like

38:24 there was there was enough depth there too that I think it really it was an entertaining game and I think you know all four of us had fun. I got to be at Tiger Tank. That was a blast.

38:31 Yeah. Then I think that was We played multiple games as I recall. And I think it was every every game I was in. You know, everybody always gangs up on the designer, but I feel like you guys didn't even gang up on me because you felt so bad because I kept bogging down over and over and over.

38:48 We We were on the same team. I think a movie played, so I wasn't shooting at you. Yeah.

38:52 No, it [clears throat] was Nobody was Nobody was really shooting at me because I was just I was not a threat. It's just like I think there's a couple times in there too where I was playing turretless tanks and I was like I'm stuck. I can't even shoot. I'm just sitting there until I get unbogg. [snorts]

39:12 And with that, we've come about halfway through our interview. I will put a link to the second half of the interview up here as soon as it's ready. Thanks so much for watching.