Beyond Solitaire Podcast 217: Carlos Ureta on the Art of Queen of Spies
Transcript
It's ad break time. I'm proud to announce the Beyond Solitire podcast is sponsored by Central Michigan University's Center for Learning through Games and Simulations. Right now, they have a fun new project on the way. The Cracked Mirror, a downloadable expansion for 500-year-old vampire, turns the game into an episttolary experience for one to two players. The expansion will be available for free in 2026, but you can get it now for a small donation. And trust me, every donation helps CLGs as they continue their mission of producing peer-reviewed games in the academic space. It is pioneering work that no one else is doing yet. Also, if you want to help me keep the lights on over here on the podcast, you can support me at patreon.com/byondsolitire. For now, though, let's get on with the show. Hey gamers, this is Liz Davis from Beyond Solitire and today I have two very special guests. I have repeat guest David Thompson. I have new guest Carlos Uretta. And what is very funny is that even though David and I have never met Carlos before, uh he's very important to us because he did all the illustrations for Queen of Spies. So, how you doing, Carlos?
Hi. How are you?
We're great.
We're very happy to see you. So, uh, Carlos, how did you end up working on the Queen of Spies project?
Well, I have worked with Southern Pepper before. Um, I've been working with Mel Foundry for couple well several years. I don't want before pandemic. Um and we have done some uh well jobs for salt and paper some projects like operation barley um take a seat those were illustration you also worked for of illustration but we also did some uh graphic design for David maybe doesn't know but witchcraft and resist system.
So not not all the time we do illustration, but we I also work with hand on hand with Samo, which is the the head the the captain of the ship of Foundry
and we do graphic design also. So the first thing I did for Southern Pepper was take a seat and well came up the opportunity to do this this game and it was fantastic for me because it was a really cool idea and and the opportunity to do something new and this I I have a blast doing it.
Awesome. So, uh, so everybody who's out there, first of all, Queen of Spies is coming to Gamefound on December 4th. So, we are, this this episode will be released in advance of that. And then Carlos, before we hug you with more questions, David, since you're the guest and I am merely the host, uh, do you want to give people just the rundown on what Queen of Spies is for people who are want to know what we're'll be talking about for the next hour?
Yeah, sure. So, Queen of Spies is Oh my goodness. It's our, you know, Liz and I, our uh second design together. It will probably wind up almost certainly being the first one that we've designed together that's published. So, it'll be published before um Night Witches. Uh but, you know, it was it was after we worked on Night Witches, we decided we're going to work on another project. We have a very very very long list of projects. It grows every day. Um, but we decided, you know, we were, I think it was like over the holidays, we were throwing ideas back and forth to each other about um, women and intelligence, right? I think maybe you had gotten the book like literally named women and intelligence, right?
I had. Yeah.
Yeah. and I had been reading some similar topics and so we were just going back and forth like sending pictures of each other, you know, what we were reading to each other and it became clear that we wanted to work on a game where you took the role of a you know a lady who was sort of the ring leader of a a group a group of spies or operatives. And we were inspired by like stories from both World War I and World War II. And we made a decision early on that uh you wouldn't we were not gonna try to make this like historically accurate u setting, right? instead it was going to be this sort of, you know, fictional setting in World War I occupied Belgium, but uh it would take sort of inspiration from a lot of different stories really about the like the under represented role and really unknown role of women in in like those those like intelligence or coart operations during the wars. And it's not like I know this is a really long answer to your question, Liz, but it's not it's not that that like people intentionally downplayed the role of women. It had to do with the fact that oftentimes those were classified things. So they they couldn't be talked about for quite a while after it happened. And then also like the nature of women's roles were often such that like they weren't glamorized. They they weren't military guys doing this stuff. They were women in very, you know, typical day-to-day life roles who were also doing this
intelligence work. And I think that's the coolest thing about the game is that like when you see it, these are like normal women doing amazing things and Carlos made it come to life.
Very much so. Uh, so Carlos, um, I guess I guess we'll just go for, you know, um, what kinds of like research went into doing the illustrations for us? Um, and you know, we we didn't get to talk to you or see anything that you were doing. We like sent it in and then just like magic happened. So what was happening on your end?
Yeah. Well, uh that's well that's the challenging part obviously always with with this kind of game. Uh we I came uh from Operation Barkley which was uh which was a very heavy research uh demanding game uh with this World War II background uh all these specific characters. Uh but well with this one was a little bit I had a little bit freedom because there there were fictional characters but the there was this background this historic landscape that I need to tackle with very good precision be truthful to the time. So well well but it's a fun part for me also because I am a little bit the historical b I like a little bit of history world war.
So this was fun challenging but but very very very fulfilling. Um, have you always worked on board games or did you do other kinds of illustration or do you do other kinds of illustration in addition?
Yeah. Well, the board gaming path was very fun and like it's it's well I was a gamer uh before so it was really amazing to get into this world but I've been doing I work in a director advertising agency uh I've done some 2D animation motion graphics, illustration for editorials, uh a lot of things, but all those things attached to the art and graphic design, illustration and well the the opportunity to do this was was amazing for me. Um I I [clears throat] contact with Moundry, my wife and I both are graphic designers and illustrators. So, grab Foundry years ago do they were doing only adaptations from games but they had to do their their first uh game from from scratch. So, well they contact us because we were on Instagram.
We posted our our illustrations but at the same times the things we play. So they needed someone with this knowledge of board gaming but that also do illustration because it's very important if you know there are some ideas some things that are doing as a board gamers know but a regular illustrator that doesn't know or a graphic designer that doesn't know about the board games it's a little bit difficult to to connect. Uh and so uh well B foundry and and my wife and I uh are working maybe more than four years and we did this first job and then then came another and another and we were doing well yeah I I [clears throat] lost the the count of games but we have for till 20 26 we have this the full schedule. Well, I I you know, I think it's interesting because Carlos, you even mentioned this. Uh I did not technically know that you I didn't know.
So So when we talk about Meleo Foundry, for people that are listening, they might not know, right? So So for example, [clears throat] um I started working with Salt and Pepper, who obviously is the publisher for this game, when I was working on um a couple of other games, Resist and Witchcraft, right? and and I knew that um Salt and Pepper I met with Samu and Deanna from from um from from Mele Foundry and and I knew that obviously they were working on it, but it wasn't super clear to me who within Mele Foundry was doing what on each of those projects and so I you know I did not know that that you had already worked on those books. So that's awesome. That's really cool. I guess I guess people might be interested to know they're listening like you know can you kind of talk about like who Mele foundry kind of is as a company and and how you all decide like you know Meeple Foundry is going to take on this project but is it you or your wife or you know how do you decide that? Well, it's it's a team.
It's a we are it's a team of five now. We have Samo and Diana. They began this together. Um then my wife Andrea and I enter the team for illustration and some graphic design. But now the there is David the who does is the does 3D the modeling 3D modeling. So for example with witchcraft and resist and the publisher already had al Montes attached to the project. He did a wonderful job but then they needed the graphic design. So we had to match a little bit to the the thing with Mimble Foundaries as as a team we are very connected very we have a common mind.
So we want all the games to have coherence to be consistent in every single element and component uh and illustration and all all the entire game to be consistent graphically. So when we work with something like witchcraft on or resist, we want to build the entire graphic around the art of Albert who did the illustrations. And we did iconography uh graphic assets for the rule book or the cards for witchcraft, for example, the frames for the the cards, things like that. that led us to blend well with the art of the illustrator.
And and then did you so did you do everything for Queen of Spies or have other people within Mele Foundry worked with you on some of that?
In Queen in Queen Spies for example, I I did the illustration but some of the graphic assets and Samo is the one who is the art director who
does the entire graphic. For example, I sometimes I work with Samo to do some assets. He does other things. We there's it's always really lose where the line is crossed. But I usually do illustration, but always graphic design things that could be more in the illustration area. Well, it's it's something like like that. It's it's a very it's a collective work between all of us. Even the ones who doesn't intervene in in in the making of are are giving ideas and come and things like that.
So, you mentioned that y'all are kind of all working very closely together, but um some of you are in Spain, right? And you're in Peru.
So, my husband and I we are from Peru.
So, how do you make it work?
Yeah. at the time. It's well it's it's funny because we manage to to meet together and like this uh at certain point certain points we we take time to when when for example I met with Samu just in the morning and was the afternoon for him. Uh he I I I have the meetings with him. He let me know what what things he he needs. So I get to the work and and I and then when he wakes up in the morning, I'm sleeping, but he already already have the things that I did for him. So we we we get along and and manage to to have some kind of a good rhythm between our jobs and our hours, you know.
Yeah, you and I are in the same time zone, I think. And so, yeah, I know I know all about the morning meeting that somebody else is watching. Yeah, sometimes I'm I'm working at the 2 a.m. and someone is getting up and asking asking me why I'm still awake.
Um, so when you're working on board game projects, so I know that David and I did an art brief that we sent. I think it was, but I don't Did you ever even see it? And then also like how do you I guess um how do you decide like when you're looking at someone's board game that they've made, like what style might go well with it? not just history, but like how do you kind of try to figure out what they want for their game? Because it's like we're all participating in the design together now.
You're asking me?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
H what about what kind of art style is good for every board game?
Oh,
no. No. Like um so when you look at a board game
Yeah. and you're like learning about it. How do you make a decision about what style?
For example, for Queen of Spice, what kind of art to do? What kind of graphic design do? Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that that that's that comes with the Well, we didn't talk before. We were talking more with Gonzalo from Salon Pepper. [clears throat]
The first thing is to chat with the publisher, the developers and how and know what what idea they have. Well, Gonzalo gave us your your ideas, what what you were expecting for the game. So then someone and I made a bra brainstorming and well luckily someone and I had a very similar taste. So we thought, well, this is uh some something that could be in the comic book ground because that's something that is really the the line that Salt and Pepper is taking in all the their their games.
It's something about the spice, detective spice, something in noir style. So we begin with the research references all the thing and and we we find the this well Gonzalo also had their their the thoughts about it. So, we took things like this old American style with noir, something about like Batman that made the series or this this um comic book artist like Darwin Cook or Bruce De and we thought that was really good for the for the look of the game. So well that that's was how how began. It's it's always research everything comes from something. So we need see always and it's fun for us because the opportunity to do something different all the time with every game to prove ourselves. It's it's fun. It's really cool and and keep it fresh for us.
David, I'm just giving you some room if you have a question. And no, I mean, no real question. I just I would just say that um I mean, Blizz and I'll probably say this, you know, over the next 30 minutes as we like continue to talk, but we were both just blown away when we first saw like the very the very first pieces of art. And then as each p each each additional piece rolled in like you couldn't I I don't know that I had necessarily a vision of what I mean we wrote but very very like short highlevel art descriptions art briefs like very very little um and so I really had no sort of preconceived notions and obviously having worked with salt and pepper before I knew the kinds of things that they generally did so I assumed that it would be kind of in that same uh vein but like I can't tell you how Like every single piece of art just tells like its own little story. And I think every piece of art like and and I think the art in general does such an amazing job of walking the line of as you say it's it's kind of like a little bit like a pulp comic book style, but it's never silly. Like it's it takes the topic seriously, but it's also like accessible and it's it's really amazing. Yeah, it's just it's it's fantastic. Yeah, that that's our goal is to make it like you said approachable uh but with kind of a little grain of reality.
Yeah.
Little bit grounded,
right? Yeah. I want to know the story of these of these mostly not all but mostly women. We could we threw a couple of token guys in there but you know
Yeah. Would you would you find to be to have a background of every characters in in the rule book? Something that tells a story to to tell tell more about it.
Yeah. Yeah. I think people are going to want that, right? They're going to want to know about Sophie and Alice and and all the characters in the game.
Yeah. You made them look very very real. I like that a lot. I mean, it's it's a comic style, but their faces and their attitudes stuff had a lot of life to them. So, I actually do have a question. So, I'm not I mean, I've read some comics in my life, but I'm not as deep into it as you and Gonzalo and the people, you clearly are. So, um you know, you mentioned a couple of artists that kind of inspired Queen of Spies. What should we go read if we want to like read some comics that are really visually nice and that kind of inspired the art for this game? Yeah. Well, the main one was Yeah.
Darwin Cook. Uh the the main Parker was a main reference for Gonzalo. Love that one. And I we heal about Parker Darwin Darwin Cook and then went to my bookshelf and find that
nice.
Oh yeah.
I show Gonzalo that I already knew the the artist. It was was really [clears throat] fun. Liz, I I'm gonna tell you this. This is like a little bit of a segue to answer your question. Just I This is a departure from this specific conversation. Um, jot down there's a there's a a graphic novel called Twists of Fate, right? Uh, Carlos, do you know Paco Roco?
That name? Yeah.
So, so if you go look that up, Liz, uh, I think he's I think he's a well-known artist, comic book artist. Um, Twists of Fate is about uh, Lan Noe, which Lan Noe was a Spanish unit that was integrated into the allies and they were there at the liberation of Paris.
And so it's a it's a comic book about that unit or a person in that unit.
You're you are Give me a little moment.
Here we go. Here we go. So, it's it's an awesome it's a fantastic graphic novel. You should check it out for sure.
Yeah, I'm looking at the cover and it looks really good.
It's awesome. Everything about it is awesome. It's really well. Even the way the story is crafted. Um it's it is the artist himself. The the artist is the right. I think he's like the total creator. He's going like interviewing the person that was in the unit.
Oh man, Carlos came back with the goods here.
Yes.
Oh, there we go. There we go. Yes. Beautiful.
That's That's awesome.
Yeah, he's he was my main reference for Operation Barkley.
Of course. Yeah, that makes total sense.
Everybody will see Operation Barkley and and say says that looks like Tintin.
Uhhuh.
But and has something about it, but my main reference was Aurora.
Yeah. Yep. That's great. That's great. See, I didn't I didn't diverge too much.
No, you're actually spot on. Um, but like since you're a professional artist who also reads a lot of comics, you know, obviously, you know, people in the United States know things like Marvel or DC and there are people who are like really in, but like what So Parker is clearly something that I should read.
Yeah. Spice and has a very similar look like Queen of Spice. Yeah,
just in general whe even if it doesn't look like Queen of Spies, what are some uh comics or graphic novels that you think are really beautiful that people should go and have a look at?
I'll take a book wreck if I can get it. The things with graphic novels for me is um well I like very much the historical biographical some things that maybe some usually don't see like beautiful there are classics like mouse or
yeah I love those are my favorite and maybe they are not seen as beautiful artworks, but I'm very more fun of the story, the the developing the developing of the of the character and yeah, but but I'm also a fan of of comic books, of Marvel, all that, but maybe I'm more in into the graphic novel series or or for example, one of the most beautiful and really cool stories are Blackat. I know you know Blackat. It's it's a Spanish comic with animals. It's it's a detective, but it's all all the characters are animals.
The detective is a cat. Look at look at it. It's really cool. is the the author is Gido. Born is the name Black Sat. That's one of my favorite and it's beautiful the the art of that comic. So, you mentioned that you really like the way that comics can tell stories, but of course, like in a board game, you don't have that kind of space to do it. So, how do you think about doing art for board games that's going to get as much story in there as possible when you can't do a panel by panel story?
Yeah, you managed to do some put some Easter eggs, some details that has some value to you but and you expect someone notice also but it's the fun part. I don't know. I I know that some people are not going to understand and and and see those things, but for me they they're they are there and for example with win of a spy uh I try to to as you said they try to create the story. Every illustration has some energy of of telling has an energy of telling a story of telling something that is behind for example with operation barley was something similar because we when I did the illustrations uh I have the assignment to do for example ah for this card it's so and so character And I had to uh research about that character, know their story, what they what he did, which other characters were linked to him. So I could build an entire scene and not just put the character in a generic background and and build a scene around that character and and and tell something
that that was happening in that moment. and and I put some uh Easter eggs and and things that were valuable to me. So, uh that's that's a good way to do it to to tell a story visually, not maybe with with text, but with with images. I I guess one thing that would be interesting to know because you've you you know you compared those two things yourself. So you have Queen of Spies where with the exception of our very very very loose art direction, you have to create an entire character, right? So like you know we tell you, hey uh Felicia, she works at a in a bar, right?
and you take that and and you have her she's like a waitress and she's doing this stuff and you know you do have two illustrations to tell the story with but it's very little right you have to basically build this entire character with two one or two illustrations um and so the the player brings no sort of knowledge about Felicia you have to tell her entire story but then you have a game like Operation Barkley where if a person comes into the game and they know these people they're going to see your illustrations but they're also going bring that knowledge in. So, do you find one is easier or more challenging to create or do like do is it easier to have a starting place or to start whole cloth? Yeah, it's um it depends but yeah it's difficult to do something maybe like Barkley because it's a person that the expert know people who who would buy that game maybe because they know about this operation they know about history they like this thing and know a little bit of that or maybe a lot so it's a It's it's a pressure to do something and that it's going to to be tested at that didn't matter with Queen of a Spy. Well, was more this was more freedom and it was fun because
you you said the this thing that about the two illustrations that together tell a story because the the fun thing the exciting thing about this is that you could do a character in some in one illustration it's the this his regular job maybe it's a some someone who is word about his job, something that we we set like a mood in that moment. And the when you flip that card, he's an entire different person, which is the idea of of these spies.
Yeah, that's great.
That is great. So, you like to do YOU'RE YOU'RE YOU'RE INSPIRED by history. You're a history buff. Um, what is your favorite historical period to draw? And also, what's one that you have not done, but you would like to?
Oh, well, maybe uh World War II. Um my my dream was doing Operation Barkley because uh when Samu came to me and like just having a chat he told me what would you like to do next? And so I told him, well, I was I was really big fan of Pakora and he does some historical theme in his graphic novels and I like that idea and I already like the World War II history. So I said, "Well, something about war about war game, something from World War II."
And well, he didn't know that I like that. So he told me, "Oh, yeah, it's fine." Then he spoke with Gonzalo and Gonzalo told him, "Yeah, I have something that I want to do." And and that was the beginning of that. And was was was great. But I'm I'm also I also like all popular culture and sci-fi and all those those things. So I would like to do something fictional like sci-fi or or dystopian or maybe in that area.
That's awesome. That's great. I would like to see I just real I would like to see that. I would like to see your take on on dystopian or you know sci-fi. That would be awesome.
But but maybe a Victorian game would be fun also. I'm
I I like also that there I'm fan of Downtown Abby. Would be awesome.
I'm also fond of Down Nav'i. So I would love to see that. Um, David, do you have a question?
No, I mean it just makes me think. I mean, so Carlos, have you ever worked with a designer? So, so I've worked in a few different ways. Um, I've primarily worked in the ways in which we've interacted here, which is to say I design a game and the publisher takes the game and they primarily work with the artist. And maybe I'll I'll work with the artist a little bit, but but it's pretty limited. Um, but I I also have had a couple of instances where I've worked with an artist before I even started the game and we worked together the entire time. Have you ever had that experience or is that something you'd like to to try at some point?
Yeah, I I have done it uh here mostly when I work with people foundry Samu takes the heavyweight. He he's the one who got the meetings with the publisher. He with the developer as I said many times the publisher takes the idea and he he drive all the car but sometimes the publisher is involved more. It depends. But some is the ones who manage all all those heavy meetings and and make my job easier. But here in Peru, I I've done a couple of games by myself in illustration and graphic design. So I know how to how is to work also with the developer.
But it's it's it's I don't know if it's better maybe because you there is no filter. You you go you know exactly what he wants. So it depends. It's good also.
So speaking of knowing exactly what someone wants. So you're an artist and you're the professional like you know you clearly like having a little bit of freedom to make choices. So when you are working directly with um you know somebody else's ideas about what something should look like um how much information from them is helpful and then how much is like too much? Um, I think it's always helpful because um, yeah, as an artist, I don't want to be just pretentious and and said I I know what I want and I want to I want the I want the the client in this case because I work with board games, but also do other things about graphic design. So I know how to work with clients and I know there's clients of one kind of another. There maybe ones that are difficult there one the one there things in their own way and doesn't listen to you and only want you to make the the program function but other ones that wants you to give ideas and and because they know you you are the professional and know this and
you do all this all the time. So h I always want to be to have all the information he he has, but I also want him to be open to my ideas and and and have this good relationship and and and get a common ground. That's important. at the at the end he is the one that needs to be satisfied with the with the product. That's that's what makes me happier than than anything.
So when you are doing illustration for a game um how much do you need to play the game to be able to do the job well?
Yeah well also depends because uh the thing that helps always is reading the rule book. I read the rule book for Queen of the Spice. I need to understand the mechanics. Uh sometimes for a big big game, um there's not always the the moment a good moment to to do it. But again, someone is the one who who do the the heavy lifting. He is the one who sometimes have to play the game in tabletop or knowing more about he well I don't know how many times he knew
tell him we're sorry
about the game he had ideas to fix some things to place text with icon with iconography to to be more fast to to read and understand very well and to keep the spaces more clean because that's one that's a thing that we wanted for the game to be very clean and elegant and sometimes you have to to do some changes and and adjust some things to to to make it better. So to do that we need to understand the mechanic. So, it's it's very important. It's it's a good thing to to know the game. If you could play it, it's there. Yeah.
So, you talked about what comics you like to read and that you think are good to look at. What are some board games that you think are beautiful and that you find inspiring?
Well, there are a ton of board game artists that I I'm very fan of Vincent to tra for me. Um Wley um Kering from Root. Uh Maria War Santiago. It's always the ones that has very particular art style that really pop up. Even even even I like someone like Ian to that's really he's more known for graphic design but he also does his the art of for his board games. So he's very prolific in what he does.
So you know you mentioned board games are fun. You do do a variety of stuff. Um, are board games your favorite kind of project to do or do you have a different favorite?
Favorite in in what the
for art? Like if you can illustrate anything, is a board game your first choice or is there something else you like better?
Ah, in board games or books or something.
Yeah.
You won't hurt our feelings. It's okay. I like very much board game. I am I'm adore to be here doing this. It's my my hobby is is what I love and it's it's always exciting to do something about board games because there are some I like puzzles. That's why I like board games and doing a board game is a puzzle. It's trying to figure out how to tackle every single problem in in what that box contains. I need to know what I'm going to do with the to these tiles or to these cards or I I need this graphic assets to to do for the rule book. every single component, every single thing that comes inside that box is a puzzle that I need to figure out.
And that's the fun part. I I like illustration in general. I like to do mood posters or I have done mood posters or or illustrate for illustrated for ch children's books or I don't know like I said I have done 2D animation and that's fun. Uh but maybe board game the art for board games is my favorite. Um, so first David, do you have any questions?
I'm just giving you a chance.
Oh, that's great. No, thank you.
So, you know, our game is about to like be out there in the world for people to be able to get. So, David and I obviously want people to love the gameplay. We also want them to love the art, but for you as the illustrator, what do you hope that people see or feel when they play Queen of Spies because of the work you put into it? Oh. Um, I would like the to be inspired by in the same way that I'm inspired by so many artists. I want I would like to be a part of that to make people feel the same in the same way that I feel with when I see someone that do something that I like. Um, it's fulfilling that. It's really fun and also to be happy playing the game and and feel the excitement and and the lore that the game provide with this atmosphere atmosphere of of noir and comic book and this also but also for the idea has behind all these women that come and and do all these things is It's really exciting.
Awesome. I But so I'm gonna just ask you some softy questions now, but I just want to make sure that you know we really appreciate the work you did and we really wouldn't have what we have without you. Um
I'm glad that you like it. Really really
Yeah. I'm so glad that we like got to meet you today because like it you did something really special for us. We appreciate it.
Oh yeah, that fills my heart. But the softy question. So we talked about games you like to look at. What games have you been playing recently that you have enjoyed?
Oh yeah, the work has been hard. So I I'm not playing as usual as I did, but I'm always playing I I I like playing solo. That's why I want to to test the the game. I really want uh what I also why I do solo is like something co-op games like I could play solo like I'm uh I like horrified uh pandemic but pandemic Star Wars because I'm a very Star Wars fan
um Marvel United uh things that allows me to take it to the table very easy because my time is now it's really messy. But I like also Euro games. My wife and I used to play all the all the nights but we we had very difficult things now and so we have to to take it to to take it to the table again.
Nice. I hope you get it that time soon. Uh, and then if people want to follow you online or follow your work, uh, where do you like to be found?
Well, Instagram.
Excellent. So, Instagram is where you like to be found. Perfect. And I will put your handle in the show notes so that people can find you.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Um, David, any last words? No, this has been awesome. Like Liz said, we just appreciate it. Thank you for helping us bring this to life. It's been amazing. So, thank you so much.
But, uh, thanks again, Carlos. Of course. Thanks again, David, I guess. Okay.
All right. Please like, subscribe, comment, ask questions, and most of all, happy gaming.