A conversation all about Rogue Dungeon

0:00 foreign hey everybody welcome back to the dungeon dive Daniel here I hope you're doing well and if you're not I hope you are soon okay today on the dungeon dive I am joined by Albert and John uh do you guys have a game name company a company uh cerebus gate cerber Escape Game Cerberus gate games and they are the designers of Rogue dungeon uh Rogue dungeon is up on Kickstarter right now and as long time viewers of the dungeon dive know this is one of my favorite uh solo only games I absolutely love Rogue dungeon and it's uh has been historically only available on print on demand on the game crafter and I think it was probably the second game I purchased from gamecrafter probably after a quest for the Lost pixel so how are you guys doing Albert and John how are you guys doing doing good good yeah yeah happy Monday yeah yeah holiday and I just saw you guys are taking some time off to work or some time off from your your day jobs to work on Rogue dungeon right now yep yeah cool so yeah I wanted I you know I don't do a lot of Kickstarter hype videos and so I didn't do I wasn't doing a video for rogue dungeon but uh I thought in an interview

1:32 would be a perfect way to kind of discuss the game and talk about what's going on so I always like to start off these interviews asking uh the guests what have you been spending your hobby time on lately board games video games any kind of any hobby related things going on besides Rogue dungeon Albert well yeah I don't get a lot of time to play other games but uh my girlfriend and I uh whenever she comes over it's definitely we we play other things so it's uh we play a lot of everdel um I actually really like worker placement Euro strategy games uh personally uh and and so we do play a lot of everdale that's what we've been playing a lot lately I have the complete collection and it's really cool I've never played that my buddy has it my buddy collects a lot of games too and he focuses more on that kind of that style of game so he has it I still have yet to play it I think a Greek Cola is my absolute favorite all-time game you know I I'm really into the deep strategy uh Euro games and so like I have a bunch of friends and and we like deep strategy games so like a Greek Hall's one of our favorites my my all-time favorite game is actually uh an old Euro game and that's El Grande I think uh yeah El Grande is is one of the very few games I would call Perfect it's such an elegant design I love it I love that era I love the early era of Euro games before they got too complex

3:03 now they're just so many of them are a thousand ways to score points and tracks and boards and it's like no give me one way to score points and and I'm good how about you John John prefers video games I think yeah yeah I'm more of the yeah a little bit more of that element you know uh but um I have not played video games because I'm um working at a another startup um as a concept artist um so uh the last thing I played was actually blade and sorcery it was like BR so I could get exercise so okay because it's it's it's basically been probably 15 minutes of of playing a game this week yeah it's usually it's Rogue dungeon and in the startup and then my job and then I have a family so it's it's been like a lot since I started this new job it's been a lot of a lot of work and also the kickstarter going on yeah yeah that can be like that can take up a lot of time so so nobody's uh I'm the only one who's playing uh tears of the Kingdom right now the the new Zelda game that is oh that's good yeah I'll stay away from that from the time being it's the most massive overwhelming game I've ever played it is absolutely insane I stay away from video games because they're they're just they're just so immersive and expansive now you know what I like about tabletops is you can

4:33 play it and you're done yeah these expansive video games RPGs it's like you just get immersed and it just it just sucks all your time and I feel like I would just never come out of there yeah he said I was more into video games but that's actually one thing as I've been playing more digital board games because you get a more condensed uh strategic you know uh little reward out of it you don't have to go and uh you know spend you know 40 hours you know trying to get through a campaign yeah I like I like digital board game style games that aren't actually just digital versions of board games like uh there was that game called for the king I don't know if you ever played that but it is the most board game like video game that I've that I know of and it is awesome it's a big hex crawl like a roguelike hex crawl with dungeon crawling but it's it's a full-on board game but it's not a digital version of a physical board game right and yeah that's it check that out that's a fantastic game really really cool but uh yeah let's talk a little bit about the history of of Rogue dungeon it's a it's I think it's a it's a interesting and I think a pretty unique game and just from this brief conversation so far it sounds like you guys kind of approach things a little differently so I was wondering is was Rogue dungeon more inspired by other tabletop games or video games or kind of

6:03 a combination of both Well Chad who is our our uh the another their third member he's not with us right now but um and we've had a lot of discussions about the origins but he kind of was the one that came up with the concept of the game and according to him you know he played a lot of old school uh crpgs Ultima uh Wizardry Helen guard he said um until you and and these guys John and Chad had done a um an app series called Tales of Illyria on the on Android and and that's like a series of app games that they've they've produced and it's out there um pretty successful and uh so Chad wanted to do a work game a dungeon Like a Dungeon Crawl board game but according to him you know he couldn't find a game you know we played a lot of games like Heroes quests Advanced Heroes Quest Conan the board game Talisman according to him he couldn't find the Dungeon Crawl that quite scratched the itch that he wanted things were either too simple or they were really complicated with like hexes and line of sight and yeah like more tactics than it is just you know we we wanted something that was light and and could bring it to the table quickly um you could play it quickly so that was kind but but you wanted to have you know some depth of developing your your hero and have a good experience and be immersive enough you know some of these games are just like all cards and it's doesn't give you the broke like feel necessarily so that's I think how the

7:34 origin kind of started as Chad came up with this concept and and um so yeah that's that's kind of how it started it was It was kind of influenced by both sides I guess um yeah I feel that heavily because my progression as a gamer you know over the last I've been playing Hobby Games for a very very long time moving back and forth between all kinds of different games but uh the last last few years I've really move away from big huge box epic experiences two more simple style games and even you know just it Little Indie RPG games that are one book and a pad of paper and and small box games that offer a big experience and it's cool to see that there are are more uh more like that uh John as a as a more into video games what what did you want to bring to that table as far as uh kind of like inspiration uh from from the from the video game Realm well uh I'm sure we'll get into this quite a bit but the uh the art style um is probably influenced by well just like with Chad like he he sort of brought all like fables and stuff from crpgs and and the old school d d and all all his he's got a board game collection he kind of brought that to me and then

9:05 um I decided um I I basically uh was working with uh 3D and uh having done the RPGs that these were all 2D but they were just big and sprawling and then he he uh I ended up um kind of you kind of have to plan that because there's it's just a giant uh project I would actually make like tens of thousands of Sprites for those right so um I basically um decided to use um a little bit more 3D in it and um take some inspiration from um a lot of the crpgs because I I was playing um king's quest and quest for Glory some of those old crpgs yeah as a kid so and then a sort of ingesting fantasy art like Todd Lockwood so um I I think um a lot of it was uh putting in some of that Nostalgia that I have and uh because not everything in in this game is supposed to be like hyper original it has like parts of it where I kind of decided to wing it uh or just put in my own Spin and things but a lot of it is just like um kind of our RPG and uh fantasy tropes that we kind of already loved you know and that's fine yeah I often say that original originality is I think one of

10:36 the most overrated things that people say they they want because I think what people really want is something that is just well executed something that is well made if it's well made originality doesn't really matter you know we there's a reason why we have tropes in genre conventions and there's a reason why artists don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel every time they make something yeah I'm trying to strike a balance yeah and I think it varies for a project so this one we're definitely not trying to completely reinvent the wheel right right yeah so so Rogue dungeon uh the name Rogue obviously conjures up a lot it has a lot of baggage good and bad yeah uh especially right now I mean we are kind of actually probably at the tail end of a kind of Renaissance of of Rogue light and rogue-like video games I think they kind of came back into fashion with Rogue Legacy So for anybody who doesn't know a rogue was a very very early early uh Dungeon Crawl computer game with ASCII art your hero was the at sign and you went from Zero to Hero you just tried to see how long you could survive in a dungeon as you moved around the battlefield collecting weapons and and so and uh that uh Rogue Legacy kind of brought a new element to that where things progressed outside of the dungeon and now we've seen dozens and dozens of

12:08 Rogue like and roguelike computer games and I've wanted more games like that in the board game Space because so many board games these days are are big campaign style games that take many many many sessions to play through so what you guys thought of Rogue dungeon was that was that Rogue element was that Rogue designed there from the beginning and is that why that Rogue dungeon is is in the name is in the title yeah we wanted to have like you know like a one shot that's you know Zero to Hero exactly like what you said that has a lot of the elements of of a roguelike you know where you have a you know kind of your dungeon is random you got random monsters it's bit but it's a one shot there's no saving there's no campaigning you can die at any turn of the corner and um you know like if you play Heroes Quest I like to think of like here's Chris is kind of a dumb little game but it's but it's like thematically it's pretty cool you know you go through but you could literally like wall yourself into a corner and be like oh crap I can't you know and then you're dead or you fall down a pit and so we kind of like some of those elements but a little bit of that is a little bit too harsh so um yeah we were going for just something that you know you could just do a run through the dungeon you know and put it on the table and but it has some complicated mechanics to where it's not just oh let me just roll the dice and see what I you know if I win or something yeah we wanted it to be a little bit more strategic do either of you have some favorite Rogue like or Rogue light uh video games

13:41 that you play or have played Well Chad says telling guard is his favorite roguelike calendar yeah it's an old school game um yeah I yeah I think Peter Jank from the designer of quest for the Lost pixel is telling me uh about that I'm really into play that game yeah I like uh uh Tangled deep is really good that's on computer and switch I played on switch that's a fantastic game and uh children of of uh morta children of morta is awesome it's a it's a really cool roguelike that has a good story the story is is the thing that kind of progresses while the dungeons are kind of one and done but did you get did you set out to to emulate that style of game like was was that was that kind of the the direct purpose I mean we don't have to ask Chad that specifically but I think um I don't think we were necessarily trying to emulate a specific thing I think we were just trying to make a Dungeon Crawl that we liked yeah and so you know like I said there were stuff that on the spectrum of super simple very very too almost too basic and you don't even hardly feel the theme or like the comment mechanic it just isn't we wanted kind of like a DND light yeah kind of um

15:11 and and and some of these dungeon crawls like sword and sorcery and and glue maven's been released since we started this game but like yep that's kind of the penultimate Dungeon Crawl you know you've got these campaigns and you've got you know oh oh yeah I guess you've got the DND box games you weren't really a fan of those because they seemed really dumb like you kind of explore the map but and everything's kind of feels random but then it's kind of like the map Almost Doesn't Really Matter and the AI of the monsters was kind of like ah so we we didn't really enjoy those even though it had like you know kind of almost tactical elements but but some of these games were just really complicated uh with lots of tactical elements with line of sight and yeah we played I think Conan the board game too uh the Conan that one was kind of fun but I think there is some broken elements to it uh with the snake and whatever but yeah I heard they've kind of changed up the game quite a bit wrote some new rules and kind of honed it and and uh fixed some stuff but I I've only played that a long time ago yeah we didn't want the game to be this like tactical map battle game yeah right basically um and we also didn't want it to be like overly simple where you just flip some cards and roll some dice and and it's like uh we wanted it to be more yeah more than and we wanted to be in between that yeah now why so why the focus on uh solo

16:47 um because there weren't this according to Chad you remember this this whole concept was Chad's um he said there just weren't any good solo Dungeon Crawlers yeah basically so yeah a lot of games are like made from like you know four players or two players but then they kind of are like yeah we also have you can also do it as one player but then you know a game that's designed to be multiplayer and then it's kind of after the fact made into solo is kind of usually not that great like yeah so I have like the uh water hammer Adventure card game and sword and sorcery and you can play those solo but they really he really wants to be played with like multiple characters yeah to balance out the party and all of that kind of stuff yeah so we really did design this game to be Solo in mind of course we realized that people were gonna want multiplayer so we eventually have the two to three player expansion right yeah but originally Chad just absolutely did not want to have multiplayer he's just like I just want this to be solo originally so not so our original release was only so only solo so uh what was the choice to bring that to uh to to gamecrafter originally uh game trap okay I think gamecrafter is really a unique thing and I'm very thankful for it I know the prices of gamecrafter games can be very

18:18 expensive and I tell people I understand that but when you think about your printing on demand all of these cards and you know where when your game gets printed that is your game is the only one of that game kind of going through the conveyor belt you know getting getting assembled and yeah what why why did you originally go towards uh gamecrafter or did you look for other avenues more traditional Avenues I think originally for our original game John you remember like we had been discussing Kickstarter um I I can't recall why we decided to go with like the gamecrafter I think we just weren't weren't confident in our following like being able to like get a reasonable number of uh backers um at the time we were pretty much the game was unknown untested unproven yeah um we didn't really know you know we we didn't have any budget to spend on any kind of marketing campaigns of any kind uh so I think we're just kind of like well let's let's put it on the game crafter and and I I remember just getting like the we did a crowd sale when we released it on the gamecrafter yeah originally and just getting like that first like hundred people was not I mean it we barely were able to get a few hundred people or 100 people and I don't even remember exactly but um yeah I think I I

19:51 think the dungeon dive video was the first uh like review look of the game on YouTube I think when I did it I think that was that was like the first one and uh that's before I because I'm kind of a a partner with gamecrafter now where they they will send me games that I want to review to help spread the word but uh that was back even before then and um and I can't even remember how I found it I think on game Proctor I'll do like a search every month or so I'll just go on game crafter and look for I have some key terms like Dungeon Crawl or or fantasy and just look at things that that are that are that are interesting that's really cool that you do this with your channel it's it's really cool content and a lot of people get to see uh you showing really really good games on there yeah I'm uh thank you and I'm trying to lean even more into that uh it doesn't it doesn't help with the clicks and and the views but uh I could make probably be making a lot more uh have a lot more traffic if I focused on big Kickstarter games and big games but that kind of stuff just doesn't it really interests me much anymore and I think I'm even going to even more heavily lean into even getting smaller and smaller and games because I don't know that's just the kind of stuff that I find interesting right now and uh so now is a Kickstarter why why now why uh

21:21 what what well we released our we we released our original board game in 2000 and then that was kind of out there and we kind of were like okay we kind of you know we had a lot of ideas that we wanted to put in the game um but you know you know how Kickstarter is so I mean sorry game crafter is so expensive that I actually had to cut a lot of material like a lot of things out just to get the size down like originally it was like gonna be like 70 or 80 dollars worth of stuff and I'm like oh I gotta you know our cards were all bigger and like so we had to just stream we I had to streamline the game and um so we had all these ideas and I think it was like in the middle of covet and John we had released the game and then John's like what you came to me you had some kind of working demo of some digital thing that he had a project that he was working on where it was essentially yeah what was that project you started on the um well I just sort of learned some I was learning some programming and Godot you're talking about that and then I sent you yeah yeah um just kind of a guy moving around on a board I think I I got maybe some some rooms popping up or something yeah but it was pretty pretty basic um but where are you going with that the kickstarters yeah so so John showed me this uh this thing it's programming little uh he basically wrote something with with the game you know for a group

22:52 dungeon where he kind of showed some hero selection and you have cards and whatever and then I thought it was pretty cool and and so we were like we discussed it like hey let's just do it let's do it let's maybe we should do a digital version of the game so we've been basically just working on that for like the last two-year tour I guess it's been three years now right it took us two years to do the original implementation and then another year to do like the campaign or how long yeah basically yeah yeah okay yeah sorry yeah um I think at this point uh the game is pretty solidified we've tested it so much and I'm at a point where I'm interested in polishing art we do have some and we also made extra content for the um digital game so like the tomb uh setting it's almost like an overhaul so it's got like new new rooms and new items um a lot some of the same monsters still but so it was very it was that that Kickstarter could give us an extra push you know for me to polish the art and possibly get you know even expand on some of the two material we have and um and get it out there and another Factor was also uh I think Chad had been sort of off the project and he was interested in helping with the kickstarter so we were so it was just kind of time anyway so so the the digital version I this was uh something

24:22 new to me so this is a whole just a whole digital implementation of the game and and plus some so I haven't seen anything on the digital version is there is there animation or is it just called let me give you let me give you a preview here and um go ahead and show you okay so now we're gonna see some of the digital implementation here can you see the can you see it yep I've got the splash screen of the uh the box cover there oh nice okay very cool so yeah so we can go into the campaign let me let me show you guys well uh okay I'll just start a new game first so you kind of have this screen where you can you can select your character so when I what I originally was taking a look at the game on the channel I I remarked about the art and how the art looks kind of like a 30 like an older 32-bit kind of PlayStation one style as far as like the characters go and some of the design of the art and uh was that was that kind of done on purpose it has kind of an old school uh computer or Playstation uh look and I think that I that that really shows up here on on the uh on the video game implementation for sure so um that was interesting to hear that wasn't necessarily the goal uh-huh but I I kind of think I understand um why some people got that impression um so um

25:54 like I said I had I had a lot of uh crpg influences uh and I've you know played a lot of games during that era yeah yeah really 3D stuff but part of it was the enormous amount of work that I had I wanted to use um 3D modeling to sort of speed up the workflow yeah yeah and I wanted to be like highly detailed so I would make um 3D uh models of like like the like these dungeons as you can see and so some of some of them they were made for illustration kind of quickly and they have like you know sort of flat surfaces so it gives it that look of uh and I threw you know through a texture on it and then did the paint overs um but I'm not sure um I know you like that style but I'm not sure that it's gonna stay that way so much uh because I wanted to add uh probably more detail to it uh but I I also used um VR sculpting for a lot of the characters so it's why some of them like like they have a little bit more of a uh it's probably not good but Albert says like plastic feel sometimes oh no I know I totally I I I think uh some of the art actually to me look like look like a models uh and I know some people have commented on that as well so okay like 3D models almost we had some um debates over it because at one point it was

27:26 looking too 3D and I was struggling with the paint over aspect of it and so I ended up like more hand drawing and painting like so like some of the character models and that's where that uh inconsistency is but I think there are a few times where the um it kind of gels and it kind of works together and that's kind of what I'm going for um like uh some of the monsters um one of the first ones that I really liked was the uh shambling Mound that was probably one of my favorites where that that style that I was going for just really um you know gelled together really well yeah and here like in the video game implementation the the background for when you were playing the game in the dungeons the just the the I guess you would call that the the player board um that looks really nice like that looks uh I think one of the issues that some people have with the look of the board game is the player mat is because that all that stone work kind of clashes with some of the other design and this looks a little more a little more modern and a little more cohesive with the with the design of everything else I think yeah so we actually developed a bunch of different you guys can still see the game right oh yeah yep so he developed a or John made a whole bunch of different backgrounds or skins for the game so like this is kind of the original it's

28:57 very very muted uh kind of stone background and then uh like a bone almost like a HR eager looking bone an organic design there eventually like some smoke starts coming up uh on the bottom there um so does this does the uh does the the game design the video design the video game design does it have more variety in the rooms and encounters and and the different kinds of traps and and NPCs that you can interact with yeah they're definitely there's definitely new content uh like John said we we added oh yeah let me

29:48 well um yeah so like I said we did add the tomb um one thing that probably the campaign uh allowed us to do things like um have we just have some weird rules in it like there are um class dungeons where your your abilities they can basically be refreshed so yeah okay it's like but if we do that in the board game like consistently it would mess with the balance so like like the monk has class abilities that are extremely powerful and um you know the Crusader has that persistent one and two other ones that aren't quite as much so it would basically make the monk way more powerful so it's a little bit more complicated you know getting that to work on a board game but we have we like there are very specific rules for individual dungeons that you know it would technically you could you could pull it off with like a Homebrew type game but that's one of the big differences so I I like uh more thematic dungeons like hey this dungeon focuses on Undead or this boat this dungeon focuses on something else yeah I think there will be some crossover though because um I we basically made it so that the tomb is going to be like automatic um an expansion added you know when the

31:18 kickstarter you know hits this goal um so some of that will be be added into it um and so here it looks like you're playing is at a party of two adventurers yeah I've got two um and I forgot to give them equipment so but that's okay uh so when they get to this mystical borderly um there's various ways to interact with it it looks like I need to pick some formatting here but um I don't have the the special thing that would be good for this but I ended up having to give away that you don't have anything you're you're gonna die yeah yeah um so yeah some of the rooms are the same like but we definitely redesigned and so you still have your you you're still kind of emulating the dice rolls and all of that so so it still kind of has a feel of of a tabletop game oh yeah like the dice roll that's right let's see okay so this is like another new card um yeah it's just yeah so we have some new rooms so you can choose which ability so you have the different abilities with strength like strength agility and intelligence basically mapping to those yeah this one's kind of interesting because it's like if you play the game where you kind of use your experience as soon as you get it like and I typically play like that but like this room will kind of punish you for using all your

32:49 your XP so like I have no XP well I guess we did start the game but like so this room uh if you have already some amount of XP in your kind of higher level like you can you know gives you a discount but you already have to have some anyway um it's bad if you have no XP because then you pretty much are just gonna get like two basically but yeah so this is like one of the I guess this is a good room like it's one of the green rooms yeah yeah um and then each character in the party gets to and has to encounter each room well yeah um well no so like you know I'll just turn this bear so I can I can I can split up my party or can you okay I've actually never played uh Rogue Engine with more than one more than one uh hero so are the multiplayer rules similar on the tabletop version as they are in the video yeah I mean I'm pretty much I mean our multiplayer rules are basically just the um the multiplayer variant that was released with the base game um one of the things we're going to do with the kickstarter is kind of solidify exactly what all the multiplayer rules are we kind of wanted it to be kind of freeform you know you kind of do whatever you know because when when people are playing together you know people want to have fun it's different than if I'm playing a Dungeon Crawler by

34:20 myself you know I kind of want it to be a certain way and I want it to be a challenge but when I'm playing with friends you kind of it's different because you know you're investing time with your with a friend so like you probably want to do more house rules and and kind of take more liberties with the game uh so you can kind of you know when it comes to like dividing loot or experience on the monsters or whatever you can kind of just do whatever you like we kind of lift it up to you know the players to decide how they want to split things up you know if you want to make the household where the guy who hit the last hit to kill the monster gets everything or or you know you can make the rule whatever you want like maybe evenly yeah I mean there's different strategies um you know I've definitely played the game in different ways where you can play it to where you try to divide it up or maybe you give it to the weakest guy maybe give the XP and so you keep everybody kind of balanced kind of another way to yeah another way to play is to have kind of like a tank character where he's gonna do most of the fighting so you know you wanted him to have weapons that do the damage you want to give him you want him to level up and then the other characters have kind of more the special items so you know there's different styles that you can play um and I've tested the different so it's kind of kind of cool um multiplayer um but yeah when you go through if you go into the same room then they it affects well well I guess

35:51 different rooms affect people differently so sometimes it says choose like one person to do something but in this case like both both Heroes both Heroes have to do stuff so how many so uh speaking of all the uh different Heroes there are there are quite a few hero how many heroes are in the the base game now 12. in the base game there's five in the expansion there's two yeah so there's seven there's seven total yeah and they all see it just looks like we have a lot because there's male and female versions that's familiar at the same but they all play pretty differently I was surprised at how different the heroes are so in the game right now we have Let's see we have the monk we have the Crusader the Rogue the dwarf Miner the sorcerer the elf Ranger and the aristocrat and uh they all have various uh different powers and different starting gear and different stats how how did you guys work to uh to to balance those did you try to balance them was there some kind of like math equations going on um how what did you do to to kind of make the the Heroes all have a kind of viable chance of survival because the game can be quite difficult we did a lot of play testing in terms of balancing but like actually balancing the heroes wasn't really something that we had to spend too much time with um like

37:21 I mean so they all kind of have similar stats when they start right so like they but they all have kind of a main stat and some of them have more luck than the others um was there a pool of points that you distributed to to the characters evenly um yeah I mean I guess one way you can look at it is you can kind of just like add up all of the things that they have and and it kind of like I think it sort of balances out I can't recall but um like for example when the original elf like I think had like uh instead of a look scroll she had like a gauntlet or something and we through play testing we found that like well that just kind of is dumb like we didn't really like we needed you know it needed to be a little bit stronger character and so like we changed it for a luck which is uh so the Rangers like a good character um have you had better luck with one or two characters and worse luck with other characters I have you or is there do you have do you think of characters in in groups of Tears like is there an a tier B tier C tier characters I mean when I'm playing I don't really think of it that way I mean definitely to me all the different uh characters the heroes play differently but when I look at my statistics so if I have it okay yeah so I have statistics for like but some of these are Campaign games so I'm going to filter out the only the hard games on a

38:53 regular game oh that's awesome I like that one character so that's pretty that's a pretty even distribution of uh it's always I think I'm the only one who thinks the game is still too easy I think I was telling Chad and John I'm like because we were targeting the game to be winnable like 30 of the time and and you can see those are those aren't my stats I mean I had a really good friend of mine we're gonna say John I said you're not alone yeah yeah I have a good friend of mine he's a co-worker and he played and he's a really really smart guy and he played the game maybe 20 times before he won the first time and uh his name's Charles he responds on Board Game Geek a lot but you're win yeah so I think I think I've seen that guy's stats didn't that guy didn't he keep a a an accident of some of this stuff yeah he did have a sheet I don't know what his latest thing John do you have a a steam stats or I don't know anyway yeah but yeah so like in first years ago like if I uh so like definitely my uh like I'm definitely I win the most with the Aristocrat like I'm 63 and then I think the next highest one is no the elf sorry the elf is 15 57 and then sorcerer 50 50. I love this stat page this is awesome this is I think people uh a lot of people are really going to like this uh stat page here yeah although somebody was telling me

40:24 that it's too confusing like I need to have it maybe more uh anyway so the dwarf he's kind of and then and then my words so my worst heroes are the Rogue and the uh the uh crusader I don't really know why honestly like so if you have these stats and you say Okay so the Rogue and the Crusader you have a lower win ratio um did that give you something to think about as far as design or do you think that was more in like the seating you know Rogue games are all seated when the game starts all the decks are shuffled together and well I have to this is just right this is just my data points you know I think other people might have completely different stats like I think Charles um like I would think my monk percentage should be higher but I maybe I don't play the monk very well but I think there's definitely a certain amount of play style like the play like a player's play style like I don't I don't know about John John which one uh do you feel like you do the best with or do you know um I I feel like I would be I don't I don't have stats for the uh for some reason my stats were wiped out for their regular I just have campaign stats oh okay but I think I do well with the Rogue yeah see and Rogue is like one of my worst so I think I think these stats really kind of come down to your play

41:54 style so maybe the way that I play the Rogue and the Crusader I think the rec Crusader in general is a pretty solid hero so I should I don't know why I don't win more with them um maybe I wonder if I wonder if certain characters you feel like you can take uh bigger Chances with you know so maybe you you just psychologically play different with with certain characters yeah the Rogue has Critical Hits like at later levels that you know and I I think I collect weapons sort of and like um you know increase my my roles I don't know for some reason but I feel like I just do like ridiculous amounts of damage with them I'm I'm confident you know I love the numbers to back it up like him but uh So speaking so let's talk a little bit about uh variety and adding stuff so that that's one of one of my I wouldn't say criticisms but one of the one of the things that I want more of in Rogue dungeon is more variety in in the rooms um I think there's two ways to look at it because in one hand the game can be difficult and knowing which rooms you've already explored that's part of the strategy of the game it's a lot like it's a lot like iron hell knowing you're supposed to look at the cards okay I know I've already been to a healing Shrine in this game so I'm not gonna experience that healing Shrine again it's very important to know what might be coming up for sure absolutely yeah but you do want I do want a little more

43:25 variety so the games aren't the same every every single time so how are you addressing that and what are some of the new things that that you're you're going to be adding into the game um like in the Tomb level um we kind of what is the tune Let's uh maybe talk a little bit about the tomb level uh is that a whole new set of cards or well so originally uh yeah so the tomb is essentially I guess it's all this other cards that that we would put in any of our tune uh campaign um quests so and some of them but yeah I have a version of the game where it's just using two team related uh tomb themed cards so because I wanted to kind of balance uh we wanted to balance the make sure that it's that it's still uh you know plays well yeah so when we I mean we we kind of we kind of kept with the same class of cards so like uh you know there's different kinds of cards you have like Traders you've got traps you've got monsters so you know all of the new content still has those kinds of uh elements so I think that that kind of is what gives the game it's it's balance so um when you go from like level one down the

44:56 like level five you know what what keeps the game balance for the most part is is this distribution of types of rooms yeah totally so the different types different types of rooms Let's uh so we've got I'm just looking through so we've got uh let's let's start with the Red Room so as as you work through a dungeon you will be going into different rooms and these rooms are shown by different gems and the gyms kind of give you a clue possibly of what kind of room it is uh red rooms those typically are uh are are encounters with uh with monsters and you might have uh it might be an empty room or have one or two encounters or some kind of combat and there are a lot of red rooms um yellow rooms are persistent rooms that you encounter every time you cross over the dungeon well they may not be persistent the women that have the gems on them are persistent right they have a a Roman numeral I think the tomb has more rooms uh that are persistent of other gym colors too oh oh that's cool that was one thing uh because when we were playing the game I wrote initially like uh maybe not know this but we didn't have the maps at first it was actually just cards and uh and we had and we had stair cards so you could just like go down the stair like we just literally had a stack of cards and it was completely random I love the map I I think the map is what

46:27 is one of the things that makes Rogue dungeon uh different from other small card based dungeon crawls in that it it simulates the actual Dungeon Crawl really well the map solved two two problems for us but like John was saying when we originally came up with the game we didn't have a map it was just a deck of cards yeah then he would Shuffle so you might do like three rooms and then go down to the second level and be like ah right ah yeah or you or you'd spin half the dungeon on level one in like be overpowered and then go through the rest like yeah and so we had this very big Divergent game experience either you would just like go down down and die like like without even a chance or or you would like be way overpowered and by the time you would get to the boss it like didn't even matter what the boss was like so we had this wildly Divergent um it's you know game place so we had to find a way to like meter or you know we had to have a progression method a method of progression and we experimented with lots of different ideas like we had I don't even want to get into some of these ideas but we had like a like a progress track where you would like you know after you you go up on so many on the progress track you you'd go down the to the next level but that was all kind of like ah you know and then we eventually came up with this map idea where it solves two problems it it allows us to do progression because

47:58 you know the card distribution is on the map yep and and the other problem was is we didn't like the idea of having a linear dungeon where you just oh okay I just draw the next card but that's how we felt like some of these other dungeon crawls are where it's like you literally go through a deck of cards like literally there's like one deck dungeon that that's what it is um yeah yeah but then like the the Box DND games also felt like this like even though you're kind of exploring a map like what you draw out of the like which you what you encounter is really just kind of linearly random uh yeah we wanted to no there are games glad to have we if my idea was if we were going to have any kind of a map element or a topology of any kind it needs to be functional you need to do something for the game yeah so we wanted to have we didn't want to have useless topology that was kind of meaningless or frivolous so so the maps that we created um it allows you to have agency in terms of like which way you want to go you know maybe I need to get that purple room first as fast as possible maybe I need to go trade for something maybe I need to get experience so I need to fight some monsters you know like you have a little bit of agency on where you want to go first and what you might encounter there like oh I have a sell sword and I don't want to you know lose it on the sirens so I'm not going to go to that blue room you know I'm going to avoid the blue room as long as possible I can yeah and it also adds an element that I love in games and that's kind of that is kind of this pressure luck element where

49:28 you know you you need to stay above the the power curve but you also need to balance your survivability and so hey do you hit that you hit that red room before going down to try to boost up your XP or you need to avoid it to uh so you don't lose your your HP and kind of using your your stats as almost like a a as a a resource of uh an economics of a resource economics game almost in some ways absolutely yeah so the map solved a lot of problems for us so green rooms does each map have uh did you did you take a look at the the gems the different colors of the rooms and use that also as kind of a balancing thing and and keeping track yeah the color distributions of the the color distributions of the of the maps are definitely key so they all have like a certain like number of these types of cards on them and yeah yeah if you don't have that then we then then um the game is actually kind of more chaotic and random but there's actually at least we thought that but in the campaign there's actually one of the quests we uh I think John calls it the Mad King where all of the rooms are the same color and essentially you you uh you get just your the ran the rooms are in completely random order so you could get like all traps on level one or all monsters

51:00 or all whatever and uh you know originally we thought that would be bad but it turns out that in the campaign that that that's perfectly playable and I guess you could I yeah I never really thought of that but I guess you could play a version of the tabletop game like that where if you just uh mixed all of the decks together and had a mega dungeon with everything in one dungeon well we so we actually do that so that's actually a variant in the in the solo original game and it's called like the random variant or something basically you turn the you turn the uh the gem tokens over to where it has the door the door side right and yeah randomize those so you don't have to shuffle the cards but you you just kind of Shuffle these the counters and you put them on the on the map that's right yeah and then you just you don't know what color it's gonna be and so whatever it turns out to be you it's basically completely random and then you draw the card out of that card so it's basically the same thing um so the green the the green deck is kind of uh now you have a good chance of having something good happen to you it's usually usually the green decks were designed for good things to happen to you but you might have to set yourself in a position to benefit from that right right so like for the there's like a uh the magic mouth right you've got to like wage your items with him so you've got to have enough items to be able to like you know win it you know get you

52:31 know win the win the riddle or whatever yeah because it says uh the wall begins to speak in riddles draw a loot card and place it face up on this room you may make an intellect check only if you place one of your loot cards on this room right you may make any number of Wagers pass take all the loot cards yeah so you're you're playing a gambling game with this right but if you only have like he only have then you it may not be wise to to wager with them because you might end up losing all your stuff but if you have a lot of stuff you know maybe you can win that that thing um and then the purple uh the purple rooms what I've I always uh have a hard time deciphering the the theme of the purple room so we have orb of Destruction pit of spikes prison sales sword in a stone and weapons master so the all the purple rooms so the purple rooms are supposed to be the best rooms in the game because they allow you to get something that's going to help you with combat like a weapon so usually they'll give you a weapon uh if you can get if you can get the weapon um or the sell sword which is you know a good bonus in combat yeah um so either getting getting a primary a new primary weapon or a self-sword is is really important because I don't know how many times I played the game where I can't find you know the weapon of my type and then I'm like on level four with like only doing two damage and yeah it's game over yeah so you've got to plan your strategy to

54:02 be able to get those weapons from the purple rooms and the end of the Soul sword so those are those are the the most important rooms I think to hit up and then the white rooms are basically uh NPCs that you that you interact with you've got a sacred Temple a gnome Trader a wise man a skeletal Trader combat training a guild Merchant and a deal with the devil yeah a lot of those the white rooms are basically uh Trader rooms where you're you're making some kind of trade you know either trading goods for other Goods or maybe you're trading goods for XP or or vice versa you know like one of them you get a good Whip and you have to give up XP um so yeah and then finally we have the blue rooms the blue rooms we have a dark room gold deposits a wounded dwarf a locked safe and a song of the siren so the idea behind blue runes was kind of like you needed to have something specific like a specific item Chad calls them item checks yeah yeah um yeah so those turned out to be kind of like the least favorite for people because a lot of times you get to those rooms and then like oh I I don't have the thing so um but I think for people who are better at the game I think you can try to plan your game and this is where the different character the different Heroes play Styles come into play so they all generally most of the heroes start with

55:34 something that is going to maybe give you of uh either something in one of those blue rooms or or you have a way to get like a henchman like like the Crusader has a loaf of bread which you can get a a dwarf with um or you can uh like the the Rogue has a lock put you know so you eat different characters start with with different things and and the reason why uh the the dwarf is is important is because you you wanna the dwarf will give you strength and then you're able to get like a cell sort so almost every hero that starts gives you some way to increase your chances of being able to get the sell sword that's in the game you know either by having luck scroll or by having improved strength or or or a lock pick that you can get him out of the prison cell for free right so a lot of the blue rooms kind of have a little bit of of strategy in terms of getting those items or maybe you already have the items and so but but they definitely turn out to be kind of the least popular thing because a lot of the time you just don't have the right thing maybe they're just a little uh undramatic little they feel they feel a little like yeah they're not quite as exciting as some of the other rooms so one of the things we were trying to do with the with the team expansion so getting back to what we're

57:05 talking about like adding new content to the game so we realized that people don't like the concept of like oh I go in this room and then like I basically don't have any decision like okay I don't have the item or here's a trap but all I have to do is roll um a skill shot or an ability check so we tried to make new content where you kind of have more interesting choices to make so like maybe there's a trap but maybe there's other ways to pass it instead of just this one skill check maybe you have an option to skill checks or maybe if you have this item or that item you can you know get by the by the by the Trap and and like blue rooms maybe you have a couple different options as well um so we were trying to uh add more content to the game where where you don't you have less situations where you don't really have any decision to meet there because games are all about good thing I feel like good game design is all about making interesting choices and that's and but it also has to fix the map you know yeah and immersive so we want it to feel like you're something that a situation you would actually maybe encountered if you were in a dungeon right right yeah so with having both a tabletop version and of and a a computer version come coming out now uh what do you see the future of of uh Rogue dungeon do you could you see it leaning more into the video game realm where it might be a little easier not easier but uh less

58:37 overhead less expense on your part to produce something and that that that you know is on paper it has to be delivered and shipped they're both a lot of work I can tell you um yeah we kind of we you know we animate a lot of stuff in the digital game and um how is that processing well like competition um it's interesting uh I'm using the Godot game engine and um I use their it sort of has its own like 2D and it's like a skeletal animation uh engine that it has in it so I basically put in the characters and I usually chop them up and then give them a little skeleton and uh and then turn their the you know the Sprites into polygons which is in Godot it's kind of like a little bit a little bit of a process you know it can it can take uh a few hours um or or I mean it can it could be like a day to get something rigged but then you could move it around right right you know uh 10 hours or so maybe um but um yeah it's it's still difficult they both have trade-offs there's a lot of uh there's still competition like in the in the digital space there's just like a million games on Steam now oh there's so many so that's crazy I think I think that's how competition works though they both come to the point

1:00:08 where they're difficult you know where there's not there's not like a free uh paycheck you know for me either way yeah so there are plans for now are you know we're gonna we're gonna do this Kickstarter and uh it looks like you know we're we're making good progress towards funding and you know we're gonna try to throw as much content as as time allows uh you know um but yeah so we're gonna we're gonna try to get this obviously we've got a lot of commitment with this Kickstarter so we're gonna get that done but then after you know after that wraps up um you know I guess the next step is to get the the digital version on uh you know I've been playing around with Android and iOS you know I've been trying to get the I I got to work on working on my my Android phone it works it works great um I'm having some trouble with the iOS right now but Apple's so but yeah so I guess that would be the next step is to see you know get it on on some of the app stores yeah and uh the digital and um and then as far as as new content you know we're just gonna have to see what the markets you know what's popular you know if if the digital game you know if if there's Revenue coming in from the digital game then John's going to keep making you know new content it's and then same with the same with the board game you know if you know when we do this Kickstarter we're gonna we're gonna actually produce more games than than what the backers

1:01:40 buy and that's going to probably you know go to uh try to go to retailers or wholesale or whatever we'll probably have it on Amazon but you know depending on on how much the board game content sells you know will if it does well we'll we'll do more it's like yeah you know we'll give people what they want you know if if it looks like you know John's a starving artist and you know he's just kidding John now he's got a whole bunch of jobs right now he's got he's got almost like too much work now but um but yeah I mean the this is this for me this is a hobby um I think John does it a little bit more for uh the paycheck but uh it's just you know whatever makes the most sense for us to you know obviously they can synergize off each other too you know whatever we make for one can go to the other yeah yeah yeah well I really think that this is uh Rogue dungeon is the exact kind of game that I think crowdfunding should be used for you know you guys aren't it's not a big company who's basically just using it as a pre-order scheme or as a way to generate money for actually the next game because you're in the hole already and so like a lot of these companies they they'll generate a million dollars but that million dollars isn't going towards the game that they're funding right now it's going we've already got the game done it's going to the next game or they're paying off uh shipping charges

1:03:13 from the last game and and it's just it I think people have kind of lost sight of what crowdfunding was originally for and and Rogue dungeon is such a perfect example of of what you know of kind of like the uh I don't know the the the righteous uh way of of of crowdfunding right just we appreciate the support we're definitely for sure I've been talking I I some people probably get tired of how much I talk about Rogue dungeon uh it's one of those games that just always always comes up it's it's in my top 50 and I'm actually putting together a top 10 list uh right now of my top 10 solo only games or games better solo and it's going to be on that list I unfortunately that video won't come up before the before the sale but uh for the the crowd sale ends but well then we definitely want to pick your brain in terms of like you've played us you you know you show so many of these games on your channel and you played probably more Dungeon Crawl games than that than we have um I mean we definitely want to pick your brain on kind of like what makes a game what captivates you in a game what makes it interesting it's probably not the minis you know I mean a lot of names have the fancy Minis and we were actually debating putting you know minis for Our Heroes into this game but no don't stand these would be good I can tell you right now okay let me

1:04:46 tell you right now why I think Rogue dungeon is like like is a good game for me because it has a variety of different types of encounters a lot of dungeon crawls especially smaller dungeon crawls tend to focus only on combat and while combat is a folk a focus in Rogue dungeon it's not the focus there are other things to do inside the dungeon besides fight monsters so I like it when there are other verbs that the players can participate in where fight isn't the only verb right you've got traps to avoid you've got still uh skill checks to make I love skill checks and games so you've got ways to utilize your your your agility or your strength or your wits uh there are different NPCs to encounter I like that I like when there are other things to do in the dungeon um the variety of loot I think is really strong there are different ways to use your loot you're not just looking for weapons you're not just looking for armor there's uh ropes and the ropes you can use to get past cards there are backpacks there are spells uh I think one place where I would like to see a little maybe a little more is in character development possibly is maybe having a little more choice in skills that you can pick that's one of the things that John's been bugging us about is he wants he wants a lot more uh yeah character development more more hero skills and yeah we definitely I would love to see more here like you know maybe five more scale or maybe two more

1:06:18 skills per level or something that you have a choice on but that could introduce a lot of balancing issues and a lot of yeah a lot more play testing we have we have quite a lot add to the game in terms in terms of skills and and you know this idea of you know when you level up even your secondary abilities maybe you can uh gain skills at every step you know you can you can select out of a pool of skills like so like when you when you level up your agility to like three or five or whatever you can pick a new skill to do in any any Heroes maybe start with more uh character specific skills I just had it I mean why couldn't you because utilizing what you already have right you already have so you pick a character and you have all these other skills from all the different characters so what if you had a dual class ability where at a certain level you get to pick an additional skill from one of the classes you didn't choose I mean yeah that's good right there you can utilize you know you could utilize what you've already made and what is already available to the to the player without having to what we might do is instead of having these skills just specific to each hero you know maybe before you start the game there'll be like a pool of skills maybe maybe each Hero has like maybe they're like top skill is specific to them but maybe the other skills um maybe they can pick from a pool you know uh to give a little bit more Agency on character development yeah it would be kind of cool or and also as you

1:07:49 develop along the way through the dungeon is to you know you get to pick out of a pool and you get to get more skills um John had some ideas of being able to like uh I think re recur your skills or pre repurchase the skill like you know maybe you spin some XP to like regain a skill um we want to have maybe more skills that don't get used up maybe but yeah I like you like you brought up already uh the we have lots of ideas and lots of ways we want to add skills to the game and I think people have made it clear like they really like the character development they like the skills aspect that makes the characters feel different so the skills are really cool even just having the skill without using it makes you it makes you feel like you're that character you know like yeah save that to the end you know but uh just having a skill without using it is thematic but um the the trick is definitely going to be uh how do we you know make sure the game stays balanced if if we add you know a lot of new capabilities to the heroes what are we going to do to balance it on the other side you know right you don't want to make yeah I've actually get yeah this is one thing I've I've been talking about forever like it would uh I love experiment even more than balance I'm not as big into balance I want to just experiment so um that's one thing is uh I've basically made up design but I know Albert cares about the balance so so every time I I bring this up it's like oh I have to re retest everything you know but I give

1:09:21 him I have these design documents that are just like you know new new skill light skill ideas there's different ways you could get them like I've saved all those documents yeah one of the balancing things that I I thought it was like that as soon as you get a monster like the sly monster could spit at you and lower your agility so it sounds like an automatic the monkey yeah the monsters have either one time or automatic attacks they have specials that aren't aren't so triggered by dice rolls all the time so um that would balance the difficulty but yeah I have I have lists of uh it could also be just at different levels so you unlock them at different times but the idea of a choice is really cool so a lot of roguelikes have that uh yeah they have the different paths yeah yeah you have different different paths so we're going to be hesitant to put a lot of new mechanics in the game for this Kickstarter because we don't really have a big or long Runway to do play testing yeah um if we've been doing that if we had been working on that for the last two years you know that'd be different but like um we've been doing the digital game but yeah we want to add extra content um and a lot of this new content has already been tested in the digital game but right we we would love to add you know some of the stuff that we've been discussing here but we're afraid that it hasn't been hashed out well enough so we're we're you know and we don't want to take forever to do this Kickstarter so yeah yeah we want to kind of get a a

1:10:53 higher quality game at a than the game crafter at a lower with more content at a lower price to the to the backers is kind of what our goal is yeah that's a good goal yeah it's a tuned the tomb is still a pretty big deal though because it's like you know in entirely new maps and rooms and the Tunes the tomb the tomb themed stuff adds we added new mechanics into the game so we added uh this concept of cursed loot so it's kind of a whole new type of loot that you get um that is it's it's on one hand it's detrimental but it's also loot so you can be used to like trade you know one of the things that I didn't like about the game is that too often I feel like I don't have like I'm kind of losing all my stuff like a lot of the times when I play the game and other people feel the same way you know you you feel like you don't have enough stuff like you kind of run out of things and then you you you know like oh I get to a Trader but I don't really have anything to give him because I've already like you know had to use up everything so instead of having these traps that just hurt you all the time which is kind of what the basic game does you know a lot of things just do damage to you we wanted to have a way to like be detrimental to your character but not necessarily just do more damage so yeah this concept of we is another one of these true birds with one stone you know we have this concept of cursed loot now where you get you can you can wind up with these curses like these items that

1:12:23 have a negative effect but they're also uh they might be useful like I might have a curse Shield so it does something bad to me but then I get an item or maybe I have an item that doesn't do anything bad right away it and but it only it like maybe makes Monsters uh it gives me some negative bonus in in combat yeah also one thing I want to point out about the cursed loot is it's another reason to move around the dungeon because you might want to get rid of that loot because it's giving a detrimental effect so you might want to go somewhere else in the dungeon where you know that you can sort of dump the loot oh yeah if there's a persistent Trader or there's I think there's a there's an altar where you can leave items so you could actually instead of if this if this item basically is going to make you take extra damage from a monster it might be worth going over a trap to go back to the Altar and then actually getting something good out of it you know instead of the negative that's another yeah it can entice you that's a like I like being enticed as a player right it's like oh do I want to chance that I need to get over there but yeah I'll do it yeah yeah hopefully that's what the tomb will will do is it'll take some of those mechanics and expand on them and also we have a new concept of uh legendary loot um where these are kind of like persistent items that you can take um on on additional quests and they give you like permanent beneficial abilities but but usually you have to have a pretty high level to be able to use them I don't know if we're going to be adding that in the kickstarter though actually

1:13:55 um I don't know if it would make any sense in the campaign they're necessary um yes we've added to kind of have progress uh to kind of have progress throughout the campaign in the video game version you kind of need something to build upon right yeah well the heroes have like a like a a pool of money that they so when you start the game you can kind of basically buy essentially what your Heroes kind of already have in the in the in the basic game right you can get a few items like three camping gear and some other stuff yeah so you kind of start out with that much stuff but then as you progress through the campaign you get you get you get more gold and so you're able to like buy more stuff to take with you in the dungeons but then the dungeons become more difficult right right um so that's kind of the nature of the campaign but yeah I just wanted to point out that we had we had been adding some new mechanics to the game uh we had it we're adding new maps one of the things that we wanted to maybe do is make the maps a little bit more interesting is having some kind of like static elements on the maps where it's like maybe there's like an icon on the map you know kind of like the old school DND uh you know grid dungeons where they would have the little dollar sign for the for the Secret Door secret door or you have like maybe some kind of little icons on a map where like okay if if I if I pass a it's kind of like a static ability check where like okay if there's a secret door if I pass the check I can I can find

1:15:27 that secret door or maybe it's a something that I can push open you know a locked door or something with uh your strength or yeah maybe there's an additional uh a purple or or blue or white jammed room that that you can actually or maybe it gives you a different path maybe it gives you a different path to within the dungeon so we were playing around with this concept of like kind of adding some more elements to the maps more interactive um you know maybe if there's like a torch icon you know maybe you can discard some loot like a torch to be able to like search the room and have something happen there uh but yeah we we're adding we added some new maps to the game um but we haven't really added any of those mechanics just yet but I think that would be probably something that wouldn't be too hard to do and that's on the radar nice well hey I'm really looking forward to uh I'm really looking forward to checking out the digital version so did you did you on your backer level did you add the the digital no I didn't even think I knew about it I thought I think that maybe I thought it was just say like a tabletop simulator version or something I don't I I don't look at campaigns very in very much detail uh I'm kind of like I find the price point that I like and then I click that and I don't I don't interact with uh Kickstarter campaigns a lot I I like to back and for I I I'm a big proponent of back and forget

1:16:58 I don't follow uh updates and so okay all right okay yep I'll give my money and then I'll wait a couple years maybe three or four years or five years for some games and well we're hoping to deliver it by like I guess December time frame but um we're gonna have to that's yeah so we definitely will have a limited scope to be able to do that so um yeah um yeah if you if you're interested in the anybody who's interested in the digital game like like it's like John said it's on Steam through the kickstarter you know you're getting a discount because it's only five dollars um and then I've kind of promised that anybody who backs the digital version on the kickstarter will get a mobile version when we have that available that's great yeah that sounds really cool I should have a way I don't really know how that's going to work exactly but I'm sure I can just kind of give away keys or give away yeah I don't know yeah you can request them on yeah just like we can give steam Keys away um yeah so the steam game is gonna be supporting PC and Mac I'll probably be putting back on there soon that's great all right well hey thanks for taking the time to talk to me and I'm sure uh dungeon dive viewers would like to hear all about hear about dungeon Crusade from somebody other than me awesome I've done a crusade Rogue dungeon

1:18:29 hahaha so uh all right well uh thanks guys and uh good luck on the campaign I'll post this in a couple days and hopefully I think they'll still be like 12 or so days left of the uh of the campaign so hopefully we can get some more funding for you guys awesome we've appreciated all you all the support from the from the dungeon dive supporters they've been they've been great yeah it's a good good group of people so all right guys we'll take it easy