Kanban EV: Discussion

0:09 some viewers may find the following video disturbing viewer discretion is advised hey everyone welcome to the discussion for kanban eevee uh one of veto sarda's uh most well-known games i think out of a lot of people this is actually the highest rated on board game geek that we found out last time we played this um surprisingly actually i didn't expect this one to be as highly rated but it is also the only one that's actually gotten like a full redone multiple editions twice because vignos actually had an edition then he did redid it and co2 co2 yeah you're yeah okay number one i guess he just doesn't need because he just i guess he just makes bad games every five years he really does he does it he just makes him more streamlined right co2 was a competitive game that he flipped to be fully cooperative right um this one has been on my shelf for a while and i don't really know why well i know why it was anytime someone was coming over at seven o'clock it's like ugh i don't want to set this up i don't want to i don't want to deal with it even though i loved all of his games right um and this one's no exception this one to me has it's still really good like it's like probably in the middle of all of the ones i've played of his like which i mean whenever they're all eights and nines right it's like it's semantics at that point but this one also for me personally has the most glaring negatives uh for me as a personal player not really as a it's not game design i

1:41 don't think uh it's just me as a player i'm just like well there's a couple things i just don't like about the game and i don't really have those with liz boa co2 on mars um and and it's very it's very strange uh but overall we'll get to those overall what are your guys's thoughts on kanban i like it you like it um not me personally but as a player no but uh as as as a role player though i'm role-playing as someone who likes these games now as a design as a mechanic i mean i i think everything fits together pretty nicely um it's it doesn't have the the major flaws that a similar type of either work replacement or resource hoarding type games do i think it's very evenly uh i've tried to play a couple of different ways a couple different even light strategies and you really do have to do everything you do yeah you can't really focus there isn't one channel to success you really have to balance everything out which i think is a pretty genius yeah design for for one of those games where it's kind of like it's definitely obviously a competitive strategy game it's not one of those where it's like okay you're gonna do this you're gonna do so i'm gonna do this and let's see which one works out better right it's more this is actually i would probably say one of his most you have to be efficient right about it which makes thematic sense too yeah you know car design yeah right but it's also the most punishing if you have one slip up right and then

3:14 it's like oh and we and you if you watch the run through which is just like car doesn't matter which i guess it's just like hard design right but as a game and i've always said this theme doesn't make good game mechanics it's like is it fun to have basically no wiggle room you know right is and that's a player that's actually not one of my negatives um like i think it's fine it's just kind of like when you play it the first time i had that moment where i was like yep i already see you know how by like the very first turn i knew i had messed up that could be punishing for a lot of players because it's like especially when you're learning then it's like it could be very disheartening if you mess up or if you just you slip with a mind and someone does something and you're like i just spent four slow-ass turns doing something only to be punished for it um or sniped or sniped but really little chance it's not based off of a misstep yeah uh and none of his other games really have that like yeah you have people who can kind of get in your way but there's always a way around it this doesn't really have that and that was like even when we did just our original play of it i did the misstep of allowing sandra an extra turn which gave you all the points which gave me enough to kind of like hone in on the upgrades right um it has been you each time right one mistake and that's where like i'll find i'll make a bet like i'll play a great game and i'll make one bad mistake yeah

4:44 it's it's why i lose in twilight imperium it's always one bad mistake yeah uh it's why i lose energy a lot of times because i make one bad mistake um so to me i do like the tightness of this i don't like where like agricola is equally as tight and equally as punishing if you mess up i don't feel starved in this game almost ever no yeah you're right because you have the training you have the parts vouchers right it's like yeah like i i played a whole lot leaner than either of you did right um not through my own strategy just by coincidence and i didn't do as horrible as i was planning to what was there um two four six six point difference two four six eight ten twelve points i mean it's basically like like you know here's me that's the exact than you like it's that is not a horrible point spread right because i've played other games where it's like like art nova for example i've played and i'm like all right i got uh 30 points and you have negative 80 oh my okay or feast for road knife no it wasn't peaceful it was um [ __ ] great western trail yeah i played with a friend and i was like i have 60 and he had negative four hey so what do you think of the game let's just talk about the game right i played the euro games where like i think i played one time i was playing great western trails people who have played great western trails and i was like at 120 and they were like 54. yeah and i'm like i i've never scored that level like wow why did you keep going to kansas city well we're right there i

6:15 just i'm trying to roleplay it's like oh wow but i do like this game i like the theme um yeah this seems fine um in terms of all of his other games of theme it's probably my least favorite when you got art gallery terraforming mars um vineyard and a good old uh you know carbon emissions super super exciting here's my question because we were talking about how you have to be efficient right and i mean we saw that in the run through where you went to three instead of two and just that one because i i wasn't gonna go there and you're like oh okay yeah you could take it but oh we'll just see if you do and i'm like nah and then brett goes and that's like well that was basically one full [ __ ] round not even out of like three full turns of setup just for one action to undo it all do you i that that and it didn't happen to me but if it did like this discussion would be going a lot a lot different um but i'm glad it did happen because i think it does show kind of a flaw in the game that because it's like yeah okay if you do mess up on building a card that it has real-world real-world repercussions leave them in the real world let me play the game and have a good time and not just have one mistake cost you the game because that's why a lot of people hate like food chain magnate but six hours right but i didn't i will say like in the moment i thought okay my game's over but realistically my game

7:47 wasn't over i'm i'm still fairly close i mean i directly screwed you twice right and still lost to you right and everybody yeah well i mean because it's also whenever something like that happens because in and i i don't i'm not one of those players that tries to add up everyone's points before the game ends unless it's kind of one of those where the players dictate the end right it's like i should probably end it before so it's like let's say i you were one of those players i could have spent my time like okay zach might catch up and then just start sniping you on certifications just to really make sure i win but it's like i'm like maybe i think i got it so i will say um like the sniping the certifications i think you waste more time there are more points to gather that if that was the goal like okay the better goal is probably trying to figure out how do i get um sandra to just end the game quicker yeah sniping points out i will say i think i do like this about this game i think you can't snipe a lot of hard points from people super aggressively yeah right and so your only then goal is can i speed up sandra but the thing is that's one player you probably can't not operate affectionately no and so unless someone is basically saying i'm going to try to win slay someone else or prevent them from any chance of winning yeah then you can't really in this game no you no you can't you can't really speed up the game there's probably like one or two

9:17 instances where you can push her one extra spot but two for that to be your goal you're not really playing right at that point and that's what i mean like the certification it's like yeah um i beat you in some certifications but realistically it wasn't that many more points because you were still gaining a point i was getting three points some yeah that's five points like you weren't probably going to take my five points a lot of times yeah luckily brett was ahead on most of it so i think like it wasn't like the last time we played where i was ahead and a lot and yeah and then you didn't so yeah i got like 20 points off of the last game we played right and i got like 16 this one yeah i got more than half of my points just from certifications right so in this case where it was this kind of nice flip-flop between brett and i it didn't harm you that badly so trying to out snipe me for it because at worst you're getting two points i'm losing two points true well you intentionally got a late start on all that too yes yeah my entire my strategy from the beginning was can you fill your garage with one car um we i i haven't played this enough to to figure it out if that's possible um i highly suspect it's not uh you should be able because you should be able to build seven of one car in the entire game no no you could build more you could build as many as there are there well no because you only have room for five right so um so if you're talking about you know get them built and then also upgrade each one right that's but it's also you're very hard

10:49 pressed you'd have to have perfect rng of the designs coming out right and also your opponents let you do that because that's what i like there were trucks out there and that just so happened trucks were here so it's like well [ __ ] okay well obviously no one's gonna let me have all the trucks uh so it's it's very very hard to like specialize in one right i do feel like though i mean the blue i have in my garage just to be able to at least get some points from that yep um but you can specialize in like two or two cars and just have one upgrade on each and that worked out really well so but i'm very curious if anyone has actually like upgraded you know gotten five cars and then got a one upgrade on each right because you should be able to if you are constantly cycling but no i don't think so you also need to be certified in that area too to get the fifth garage right yeah and then also your opponents would have to keep taking these away um so you can get through that stack to get the set the car that you're watching i'll let sandra go there you could you could yeah and hope that the car you're going for isn't one of the first you probably need to um be certifying that so you can look at the extra one and hold the extra design um it's all those things where i call it the little things about this game that um yeah you could go one color car is it the best strategy i don't know yeah i'd probably say not um because in order to

12:21 do it you still have to do other mechanics yeah you so yeah we're already evening things out exactly there isn't one thing where it's like like other games we've played where it's like i want to see if i can just never do this like um perseverance whenever i was like i just want to see if you never do settlements or if you never do this or if you only go walls and those all pan out here it's like well to even get those to even get the cars i have to push the cars out so you have to understand every department and in terms of layout this is probably one of his best board designs and i'll say to me that's actually kind of for me at least what makes this game actually really great is your point you could theoretically try go for all great trucks but the game guys are going to punish you in trying to force you to go a little bit more broad spectrum on everything you can try but you are actively now probably fighting mechanics of the game yeah which once again that's something that i brought up that's like okay this is going gonna be a player decision on do you like the freedom to be able to try multiple strategies and see how they pan out or do you like the action efficiency where there's really kind of you know point a to point b right because to do to get those designs i mean that's the easy part i just get those okay but now to get the cars here i have to go over there push them out so they're to do that i need resources right and then i have to go over here and then get the cars in and then i have to come back to get the the designs again right to then upgrade them which is again where the admin

13:52 location comes into play yes so you can probably push it a little bit more and once again parts vouchers lets you freely get stuff so you can like you basically can use double resources i could have one green and hold on to it use a parts voucher to you know grab the car and then flip it right or and whatever what was interesting is one again because i never feel starving in this game because you have vouchers you have books and stuff you also have that free library of parts that as long as there's this yeah as long as you there's one empty and you have that piece like i could take this drivetrain and take the auto the engine and the chip for free it's a free action doesn't cost time doesn't cost anything um and so then like if you're doing this instead of using vouchers some of the time like because again normally when you take parts you're buying multiple the same well i can now hopefully i'm looking at that as well to grab one that i don't need over there so you can constantly yeah that's true um and so it's things like that that will get a little bit easier well to me it's you were right this game is less about player choices on what strategy i want to do versus player choices of how am i going to be the most efficient player possible um again i haven't played as other games what i've heard is mostly other games are more player choices on what strategy you want to do there's a lot of efficiency still in it but it's more i get to choose a strategy yeah this one's way more focused it's

15:22 can i be more efficient than you yeah and which begs the question do you think this game is uh because of that replayable because for me i like strategies whenever like we can come back and be like i just want to try something different sure or we didn't see a bunch of the stuff and out of this it's kind of like yeah i mean i did that and playing it again i don't see any reason why i would play it any different like it's it's so streamlined that you could play it you know a couple times and be like all right i got everything out of it you know so i could see same like beating a co-op and you're like well we beat it there's kind of there's nothing left right like i love the brain the puzzle that you're in it and it's and you're right i'm not sitting here like [ __ ] okay right that one part that just needed to come out let me just like i'm not sitting there just really racking my brain zach don't go and take that part go take that took it okay yeah my game's [ __ ] over um i'm not i'm not there but the actions are just yep go get designs okay push those cars out all right go get the cars i think if you play with large groups of player like lots of different people on regular basis who play this level of heavy game then you will run into that problem because the more experienced player will figure out what is the best efficiency strategy and probably take it right you play in the same group of 10 people who

16:54 are always kind of constantly playing this or kind of cycling through those people you're probably not because you're going to go for the most efficient strategy i'm going to go for the most efficient strategy well if you go first i already have to change my plan at least a little bit to be efficient right because i don't think this game is player one just will instantly win this game true i can prove that that's true he has gone first every time so that's what i mean by um i don't know that if you have two people or however many people are playing of equal play level equal ability which i don't necessarily like in a game where i have to always play with equal that's starting to become my problem with root is if i don't play it with a table that's at least semi-equal and skill level root becomes a broken game right and this is the same way i think if you played with people who have played kind of equally it becomes a broken game or at least i can see it becoming a broken game yeah i could also see the issue like for me like i don't think this game is boring by any means but i'm not excited to play it again like i am his other games because i know that there's just different aspects of strategy here it's like especially because because i it's like i won and i'm like okay yeah i got it you know um i won probably through the hiccup or whatever but it's like yeah okay i not not to say like oh i figured it out right but there's nothing left to figure

18:25 out right um like this the the only it's just the randomness of the cards and the tiles coming out right would be the only real variance now what would be a significant variance is how many players goes up out of four okay four would be a very different i think dynamic strategy for i know the um this just because there would be more space contention there would be more yeah this stays the same the track is bigger yep with four actually we could it um just more spaces for cars we push because because it doesn't end until this hits three actually they both hit three but uh one hits three and the other one hits two so because that's longer um it just takes more it takes more time for that to come around but it's still the same like in essence n conditions still three two so realistically in a four player game it might be game two more often with three there um well i mean you'd think but also that chances are people doubling up right like she in a four-player game she could just hop two spaces right and it's like oh [ __ ] she hates us um so but and then that's that is one of the silver linings this game is was about hour and 40 minutes um what two people three oh yeah yeah so this game's not overly long if this was probably 30 minutes longer i would have been like okay i'm kind of [ __ ] over it right so it does have a it does have a very good sweet spot yep for its

19:56 time and actually this is one thing he's nailed i don't think i've played a single one of his games where i'm like this kind of needs to end right on mars is long but you're engaged the entire time right um do you guys have any negatives about the game uh because i obviously have i have one that i actively don't like uh but there's so there's a silver lining to that one and another one i think this is kind of stupid it's not really a hard negative because it doesn't it's i mean you're not wrong but it's still just kind of weird sure i can't think of anything offhand zach you got anything um so again play it the second time i really enjoyed it the first time i enjoyed it the second time i probably enjoyed it a little bit less the second time because brett [ __ ] you know i think i kind of agree with you after just because a lot of times when i go home after playing a game i think through how the game played right i kind of agree with you it's a game about efficiency versus player decision so because i changed my strategy up a little bit and yet realistically i hit the same rough score we actually did yeah brad did way better yeah i think i actually was one point less than my last score right and i felt like i to me i'm in the pers the percentage of where i'm going score and again like for me my variance is pretty it's fine there so i played a very different game that i did the first time but we all did i know as evidenced by you know we only went through one of these completely last game we went through through four right but i also can't really like i'm trying to think of how i played different i

21:28 think i just played better but my score ended up being the same because remember the last time we played i pushed out cars first and i was like oh [ __ ] i need to go get designs so i had to backtrack this time i didn't do that first thing i went was to get designs and filled it up and then planned for the designs i had right and because i knew you were going to do because i knew kind of that cycle is like okay i'm going to go get parts then because i know i need parts and i'll get designs after you're done with designs with that and i'll be in that sweet spot as well so you're okay so you just because i went i i did steps i went i went design cars and then upgrades right um and so you were kind of going the reverse of uh you know designs upgrades and because let's say so you pushed out three cars but you wanna buy two because you're trying to be efficient on the pushing out cars that's fine i'll take up one of the cars um i'll have the parts again because i bought three upgrades i'll be able to upgrade those pieces and so to me it was like and that's what i mean by um first player is going to change your initial strategy and how that flow's going to work because i agree if i'm first like if i get to pick my work or go first i'm probably going to go to design first yeah because i can get books and bank time for basically because i don't really care what cars it is yet yeah you really don't care about what the upgrades are right i can fix that problem i can mitigate that problem the only reason i'm a job that you would care about the car is because how much points they are sure at the end like obviously you don't want to fill up with greens because that's only two points but they're also

22:59 well it actually kind of evens out because pushing green on is the easiest so you're gonna get four points and if you have any objectives for greens like we had objectors for greens i put that car out there that card so i could have planned for okay i need to push out greens from the very beginning of the game so it's those type of things that i think yeah will change how your decision making is done a little bit but again the game is based on being efficient with those constraints that i've given you right um so where was i going oh so we were talking about negatives right let's talk about the one that i think is just kind of stupid um because so multiple and it kind of actually ties into the one i actively dislike in this game um but i will say i like i like the bubble system i like the speech things i think it's thematic good obviously you're gonna have meetings in this kind of industry and you have what you're gonna talk about your talking points um but so that's really not the problem but the problem that i find that's kind of weird is the upgrade system um not how you upgrade your cars but the fact that you can get so many points just for having them and in my mind that's that's not a thematic talking point like you'd be like hey i have all these upgraded parts great are they on the cars well no we just got them it's like well that's so [ __ ] different than you have in the the the design like i feel like because like to me in my head the reward for flipping them over here is the two points and then you get to

24:29 capitalize off the two points you know or for the or the speech bubbles or her administration when they're actually on cars because everything else about this game is thematic and all of his games are like that that that's a talking point that's something you get to go and be like i have two body part upgrades on cars that's worth eight points but just be like yeah i got them they're somewhere sure so so i guess maybe i'm just trying to be too thematic even though his games are kind of always like everything is thematic with one another and that's just the one weird but here's the thing so yes you get the instant two points but remember you're also going because these don't give you more points until you put them on cars cars are also worth points it's the same idea they're just going to score at the end of the game you could score them immediately they could have i don't know why they aren't an immediate point because they never want to change you can't you can't swap out cards so so to me like i agree you get more points by putting them on cars because of the sander at the end of the week and to me that's the thematic part of it is she's rewarding you for basically upgrading like not having just the plans for it but actually upgrading because to me this is a resource just like these are and then when you flip it or you buy cars that's where you're getting points for it and then if you can combine the two where you get you have these flipped and you have the cars you get bonus points for it yeah i definitely yeah i i agree with you on on especially when she's an admin that you do get the points for those upgrading i guess it does all still come

26:00 down to these [ __ ] cards oh it does 100 i hate i and this is my one my my big negative i hate this part about this game nothing else i mean obviously these are random but right you know that's just kind of what you're dealt with no one's top decking car parts or car designs no one's i guess you are kind of top decking the parts but once again there's so many avenues around mitigating like you really need a green yeah i really need a green well both my cards don't have green oh i have three car vouchers so it doesn't matter right i guess the only time it would matter is if you know you wanted to push a car out and i had a specific upgrade that needed to be met but the stupid meeting objectives bugged me so much and again this this time around didn't bother me as much because i did kind of what you had said the first time was okay play the one you can get the most points off and then hold on to the one that you're close to and then you just do that the next time or the next meeting which is what i did and put out a card that like yeah maybe you can get it maybe you can who cares um but i just i've me as a player i hate top decking points like i just i think it's just i just think it's a cheap way to get victory points um and i didn't even capitalize off of that many in the meeting and there are so many times where it's like i'm gonna do this oh that's eight points all right cool none of my cards gave me eight points

27:31 they gave me a max of six you know um what are your guys's thoughts on the the meeting on on these i think the meeting itself is fine um but i'm i'm seeing your point about the private yeah especially the ones that there's only one thing you can do right i put it out i get the points nobody else has a chance yeah although you see see it was a lot more interesting to take you know here's the one that i passed on if i played that i was going to get nine points for him yeah three more certifications but you were going to get six and i was like well that's only a net difference of three that puts you in a number yeah which is which is why we just straight four but that's why i think that one because like people are saying like well you got nine points yes but the next person's getting six this is just giving one player you as a four points right which is what i didn't like just that that can happen it's a lot more interesting to have to think about oh which one of these is going to be not only benefit me yeah but not benefit you guys as much right sure so if these just didn't exist or they couldn't be used yeah or just your own private surprise or topic your hand is a perfect example no one else even has the opportunity to capitalize off of those points because you just got lucky enough and drew those right like your whole hand could be just the the certification ones and you're like oh man lucky me i'm certified in all that so maybe if those were the only ones that were public yeah and and all the private ones had to be multiple right because here's here's my overall thoughts on how this

29:02 is how it's a problem and other games it isn't most games it's here's your one you know secret objective everyone gets one it's kind of a jumping off yeah for the whole game okay how how can i you know complete this then a foundation is a room we played where everyone had a secret one but then there were the public ones those are there the whole game and i don't and that's why this sucks so bad because they do that but then they also let players draw different ones if you had an opening hand of three and those were your three for the whole game and only you could score those because you're not gonna be able to hit all of them but you're gonna pretty much get two or three meetings so if you only had three cards then you would have to decide okay chances are of us having three meetings is slim to none which two do i want to go for and maybe if i get my third one if we have a third meeting i can capitalize and get those and then you have four talking points that are out there the whole game and then it's just kind of because you then you still can do the multiplier because the certifications would still matter if everyone's going for the same ones and i know they are at a certain point but because these also change if this was here the whole game right then you would you're not working for a common goal right now all my goals are just shifting yeah because then it comes down to oh okay well i have like if brett had this one oh i have the most time and so lucky me they're not gonna be able to go for that one i don't know i just think in the game as we just talked about is so efficient in everything you have to do and then you just throw in completely random points

30:35 it just feels so out of place zach so okay so i agree with the sense that you can top deck it but for the most part what we've seen is most of the time you probably aren't maybe once in a while you're going top deck like or if that's your main strategy or that's it may not work well right meetings so like okay and strategizing getting most your points from these because they're not that much so like okay i have three let's just say these are my three beginning ones right i have to at least to a certain extent plan for at least one in the first round to try to score it knowing that i'm only going to score one of these three in the first round and those as well so to me to a certain extent you have a full round the rounds aren't short that you still can go and get the points there it's not like they are so far ahead i don't need to have all my objectives told at the very beginning of the game so like twilight imperium for instance your objectives come out one at a time per round you have to adjust strategies as they pop out and that is top decking to a certain extent just everybody's fighting for it yeah that's true i guess it's just like yeah you flip an objective and it's like oh lucky me right and yet now to a certain extent like good twilight appearing players just know all the possible objectives so they have a category of what they're going to try to accomplish as much as often as possible but that's why in the expansion

32:07 they added enough objectives that you can't do that anymore yeah like there used to be a straight meta that you do a very specific set of things to basically guarantee you the most possible points at any one time now they said well that's wrong we're going to make it random enough that there is no way to meta at the game anymore to me there's enough of these cards it's hard to meta the game so you still have to be flexible yeah so as you were saying before there's a common general method to score points and these throw all that off right and and shake it up so that other things can work right right and so that way like let's say i'm failing here which i was so i went for bubbles i scored i went got tons of bubbles i had right four on each single time except for the very first one and i was scoring as many as i could because that was the only way i was going to catch up and so it didn't benefit me as much to try to catch up with you in cars on round two as it was how do i just score my bubbles hopefully yeah and it just it's like it's just so weird from a design because i feel like he probably that happened i'm guessing in play testing where someone made a misstep in a game and it and it threw off the whole thing because it's like well okay well he's still playing correctly how can i course correct how can i help people who aren't as efficient oh maybe i'll just give them these these random objectives that they can try and play for but the problem with truly random objectives is they won't necessarily go to balance it out exactly it's just like because it could

33:37 be like okay zach missteps let's say all the cards that happen and they didn't like you got some that you were able to get points off of but let's just say like last time we played all the cards i got sucked then it just adds into insult injury you make a misstep now you're behind then all the cards you're getting dealt or all the cards that we're playing you also can't get points for right okay and i will agree that you could have on a chance where you just get screwed in cards but realistically you're getting two new cards per round you're it's happening at least once if not twice right so the chance that you can't score any of those cards so you're talking what seven cards at least yeah and like i said my my distaste for them is lessened than last time we played sure um because it's just a weird way of thinking um granted i obviously aimed for this the most because that's you're gonna get more points out of that uh because i what is it eight seven so 15 21 total points if you happen to get all of them right um and then these are just kind of there throughout the thing and it's it's just it just bugs me that it can happen i thought it's always gonna happen but it can and if we're over here talking about out of all of his games this is the one that is like it has you basically have a checklist a b c d e f g games over follow these steps you'll do well well the nest is kind of like oh i got to give the game some variety some replay and this is kind of there it's just in in a less

35:08 tight game like um or if they were fixed points because like it's not a problem in paladins of the west kingdom because you're aware of one of them like they get increased in points because you have less time to complete them right and those are technically random uh but no one knows what they are so you can't really plan for them anyway and then they're flipped and you're like oh [ __ ] that one's worth what i think it's like eight points or something that's four or six and eight yeah so it's like that's eight points oh [ __ ] do i have time to do that one and you might be work for it i'm not saying you don't work for these or you don't hopefully draw one and you're like oh thank god i have a blue car you know right and then once again you have the action of if if i because i obviously didn't go for certifications really because it's a majority of ways you're going to get your bubbles which then you need to even do that so that's a strategy in and of itself um bubbles by doing just the other things and i will say i actually really appreciate that like that was kind of my thing on i mentioned it in the run through because i was going to try and not touch certifications at all you you can't like yeah like if you want to even like i'd be at [ __ ] zero points if i if i didn't cert at all um so you kind of have to and that was kind of like oh that's a bummer like once again the game is like hey just [ __ ] play it the way like you might as well have just given us a tutorials guide to okay here's what player one does here's what player two does because you don't experiment

36:38 you can't really experiment as much as as i would like right this game is not an experimentable game yeah so which is very thematic because it is a proven technique right it is and so but i will say you know you know props to him for giving multiple avenues of getting the the bubbles right they're becoming you know mainly certifications because then you bump up you get one there there and then if you become an expert but cars uh upgrades and then pushing cars out will get you enough right now i wasn't as liquid with them as i was i think the first meeting i passed after playing my first card because i had i had like two i played one bubble yeah and then it was like oh now i got some and i knew for a fact i was only gonna complete two of these right so i was like well i gotta at least save two right um so it all kind of worked out but uh um damn i can't remember where i was going with that oh uh it was still about these stupid objectives oh but so if someone is able to go that strategy and be liquid with them then they can just take points away from players which i think is also stupid i feel like it should be one of those you can you can only multiply it by what you actually have like i can't steal the two times car from you if i only have one right i think this is kind of done i agree it's a weird player interaction that's the other thing i don't like i don't like and we talked about this last time and again maybe it makes sense the fact that i stole brett's five points because he got there first i know

38:09 second i don't like that i've never liked that in games it's a mechanic i just don't enjoy right because he's actually punished first for because it's not like he wasted actions he's like you know what i choose to spend my actions to become certified well on the other hand i also got a speech bubble and my choice of yeah i just don't think it's it doesn't bad i don't think it balances out it does if it was two points i took but then if i came in and then just ran up then you lose points right so so that's why i don't like it because you're giving up other actions that you should be using for other things to get to that expert level yeah and then you're punished because you did it first right i it you know it's in the game it is what it is i don't appreciate that right i feel like it's also one of those that it's kind of like well it's so easy to become certified like chances are you're only going to get one two cars out of there you can burn one and just get like because you can very much become an expert very quickly we saw the last time we played brett it was like an expert everything yeah that's because i did literally nothing else right for the first several times i mean you go there you you know you spend three actions you're already certified so then you get benefits so maybe that's what they're thinking okay if you take the points because that'd be three five maybe that's what i did pretty much 11 i mean you can get 16 total points but then you're also getting [ __ ] over in the meetings because you're going last well you're going first well now

39:39 someone also oh yeah so i agree maybe maybe there's someone who's done like a grid on how the points do even out but it still doesn't feel good when you're like yeah i'm the first one and i okay now i'm losing oh now they're also there okay so i lost four points i actually nullifies almost these two actions and i got [ __ ] because the one thing i can do like they took that's why until the last two literally last two rounds the only time i hit the expert level every other one i was basically right here with the idea that i'm just going to wait i'm already starting five i don't need to go farther i'm going to wait to see what happens and then the last few rounds i'm just going to try to bump up to the five point either people aren't going to beat me on that they're going to stay where they are yeah or i'm going to beat them out at the very end and i was just like that kind of worked for me i'm not going to touch swords at all right because i don't think these are good enough i don't i don't think they're good i think the bubble isn't is a nice addition that should stay there but i feel like these like these should be like [ __ ] if you're an expert in something if you're considered an expert especially in the kanban kind of like right theme this should come with a [ __ ] car design this should come with an upgrade this would come with a i'll even take a part i mean i'll put this way if it was the guaranteed five points a bubble and something else i would say fine i'd say guarantee five points of bubble and then you keep these right that would be that would be that's what i'm saying so you get all three of those basically they would say it's fine then then becoming expert and something is a worthwhile endeavor to try to

41:11 accomplish right but let's say we keep the diminishing points and then those upgrades are boosted to where you get a free car right now it's like something that makes it to make it worth i don't know but then the third player would have even less incentive too but the whole thing is you still have a choice always of trying to push to get to that expert level if you see two people going expert here well i'm just not going to go expert yeah expert here you don't need three experts in kanban come on and the thing is like again this is actually not much different than our last game was where different colors of who went to where but there weren't a lot of experts no um i think you became an expert in one thing two things right and so damn right came into expert the idea that okay i'm going to just everybody's going to rush for expert now no it's not much point it's not very many points but it's still enough to incentivize that becoming certified versus becoming expert certified to me is more important than making me an expert at this oh absolutely with the diminishing returns these rewards because you also get the speech bubbles you also get to a way better awards two parts vouchers or two training my argument is first person here gets five points second person here gets three points and the first person's going to get the bubble because again that you spend enough time to get there quickly early in the game yeah right oh yeah yeah yeah once again your word for getting there first and that's

42:42 another thing that makes this thing just seem way more weird because it seems like a lot more like his other games everything is tied together the higher you are on certs the you get to talk first right um so then it's like oh well they're probably thinking well the reward of you being ahead of everyone is that you get to you pick if you're you know pick your choice before anyone else but once again these are random so even if you're first you're like well i can't [ __ ] do any of those right great i mean granny you did put one card out yourself so it's kind of like well i didn't even do the one i put out there so that's kind of all my turns getting certified yeah well right yeah that's true yeah so it's just it's just weird there's a couple weird things in here um last talking point what do you guys think of sandra what do you guys think of losing points based off where she goes granted there is a variant you could flip it where the person the lead is rewarded um just off top of my head that sounds worse you think so yeah benefiting the people in the lead rather than i mean punishing the people who didn't do anything i mean i mean they're equivalent but it just feels like hey you're doing so great let's give you even more that's yeah that's true actually yeah so why i think it well but here's where i think it's kind of different people don't want to be punished they don't play a game where they're they get docked points so round three a lot of times you've probably have enough of these things that you're not getting dock points if you're in the last and it's probably

44:13 been enough time that things like this you're being spread out so it's only affecting one person the first round a long time you're punching two people where you're only punishing your the flip side would only benefit one person true so in the punishing version you're probably actually hurting more people mm-hmm than in the uh well well i can i know i can confidently say that while it feels shitty to just be like like i almost i almost view the 15 points as being at zero right i do like it's i don't mentally think i i i didn't i didn't gain 15 points and then lost it all i started at [ __ ] zero right and then and as we saw i mean brett figured it out he's like i'll just be above five and you're only docked one point right like you only lose a bunch as if you get greedy and take more time and then she's like hey by the way you didn't do that and you're not staying later okay well here's because you and i were consistently losing points like okay here's five points here's five points here's four three and then it does kind of come down to all right she's there we've all met it i think it's thematically cool yeah um but never like the idea of going backward right but i don't think that it's a problem and you know it's it's a negative part of the theme but you know it didn't make some sense hey you're not doing well enough in here we're gonna need you to uh we're gonna have to shift you down a little bit and once again it's one of those things you just kind of move oh she's gonna go there okay i'm gonna go there to either push her forward to where i'm

45:44 ahead of everyone or i'm going to beat her out and then just certify myself you know just once the first slot ahead of her and and getting this and i'll use one of my actions to certify myself once so it's going to affect both of you i think it all does kind of come out in the wash i do too which then begs the question why is it in here if it comes out in the washing the point loss may i mean i don't think brett actively lost the least amount of points right like and yeah well that's what i'm saying is that you lost the least amount i probably lost the most and then you're probably close behind i'm like um and it's reversed where it's like i lost the most but yet i was somehow able to make up for it so it's like the first game right i mean i was down here and lost by one point that's true and you were definitely not losing that many points because you and brent were kind of doing the same where you went up in the search right as far as the last one i don't know that's necessary to lose the points no i think it does incentivize people though to become certified a little earlier in the game versus just gathering the resources yeah um and it also it's an incentive for the alternative mechanic which is not part of the core production system it's it's right it's incentivizing the distraction and and incorporating that into the strategy yeah right i mean i like that she does things to the board yeah i like that she's essentially a round marker obviously like um she also clears off resources yeah yeah

47:14 like i think her as a mechanism it works i just think the point the point docking just doesn't really matter it's just it it seems to me that as i said the point spread ends up not mattering you can go all the way up and just hold on to six point or sixth time and you know efficiently use it to where i lose a point at this point and then so then it's like okay why does she do that but then on the flip side okay well let's make her reward the person in the head or ahead well then that just kind of that dicks over to other people in a in a worse way right so i still like i think the punishment so like you said you just gotta give up six well but here's the thing so why am i not above six cause i gather a lot of time because i'm spending it to do other actions trying to do more efficiently so um i think that's the balance or that's right and so to me it's like i don't mind then losing the points because i'm actively to a certain accept making that choice yeah and i like those kinds of decisions like okay if i do this one extra if i spend my one extra dark time if she she's gonna hit me i'm gonna lose four points but if i do this one action i'm gonna gain ten right you know so when i'm in reality you just gained six but this is this isn't one of those games really that you're swinging in bunches i think i had one where it was like 18. and that was kind of i think it was at the the second is that the second was the last was it the last one i think it was then i was like i'm pretty sure i got this that's a

48:44 pretty big point of uh 18 points which you had to see it was just like our first game where i got like 25 points and one with the same idea the same switch right and although also that you know the eight point cards that you got yeah um so yeah uh overall huh scale one to ten nine still a nine easily nine oh eight i might be at a seven actually i was sitting at an eight um but that's the thing is we for me i feel like i griped more than i praised about it but there's a lot of there's a lot of praise here this game is super good yeah but for you there's some bigger flaws bigger flaws i mean once again the the the meeting cards like it was they're just there now but it's also this game is about efficiency and for strategy games i want to be able to go back and play it a different way and this doesn't have that for me it's like yeah i'm gonna get and that's based off the design it's kanban like what else could he add to word you could do something completely different when it's based around that theme there's not a whole lot of variety behind cars yeah i mean i mean right while keeping it very grounded in reality as close as you can get it's just kind of like yeah i mean i would play this like this

50:15 is definitely one of someone's like hey you want to play compound like sure right and i'd have a good time playing it but out of all the games that i have and out of all the games i have of his which is all of them this would be probably the last one i'd pick right besides galleries i can't i can't remember if i have to replay that one but lisboa vignos co2 on mars and escape plan it's like all of those are kind of those are nines and eights for me and a seven is still really good right but in comparison and i'm very curious um like where you would rank this if you once you play the other ones right because as i definitely if this was my very first one of his i'd be like oh my god this is genius designed and it is genius design like but i think i've just been spoiled by this by the other ones it could also change you could play on mars and be like i [ __ ] hate this game right and i would say like because you said you didn't really care for the theme i love this thing this team is that's very amazing and that's probably bumpy up a little bit because like i've worked in in that's not a car factory but an aerospace factory this feels very similar it's like oh man this is kind of like he went to a factory and just watched for him sure yeah and that's how all of his other games are like man did he run a vineyard like what the hell that like all of his games are as close to their theme as they can possibly be without him basically just shipping you a documentary right now and so i probably will enjoy most of

51:46 those games because from everyone that i've talked to they're big thinking games they're very thematic games um so basically you've marked off pretty much every checkpoint yeah except for can we debate in them like literally have negotiation debate in them the out of all of his other games it's probably going to come down to where you rank them basically if there's one glaring thing for me i mean this is realistically probably an eight um in terms of just overall game design but me personally it gets dropped down because of lack of replayability right could be the very same thing where you're like well that one thing just really bugs me right i don't like that some people don't like co2 because you could play perfectly and still lose like so um some people you know don't like i don't know escape plan is his lowest um i don't know why i think that one's super fun interesting i was just talking to someone who's selling on mars uh-huh and he's like i hate escape plans like out and we were because we were talking about because i was like i just played kanban um he's like and i was like you know someone was just selling on mars like 100 bucks he's like yeah that was me he's like if you want to play it what can you play at some time yeah on mars is his heaviest by far right um it's super what i've heard is like it's playing two different board games at the same time almost it's playing two medium weight euros at the same time right every single thing uh you know fits together right um he always includes one thing that is like

53:16 in all the uh paul grogan how the plays there's always like a section of those other plays where he has to be like all right i need you to listen to me because vignos has something about aging wine or the in cellars and that's [ __ ] weird um liz boa has something weird in it where it's just like what the like i'm pretty sure vito's designing and he's like this is good this is good all right like i have to put this [ __ ] part in like i was like what are you doing so that's what we're missing we are we miss the coke that all the japanese executives are doing when they're doing this yeah so uh yeah and i mean but once again like i'm not getting rid of this right um but it would be ever an every once in a while game right i haven't played in a while okay like let's see if i still hate it as much no that's the thing is whenever you rate game so high then people take a seven and they're like so you hated it it's like no like seven is good like it's very good like uh this is what you get on the level of the eights and nines i can't with his with it with the other games right and it's like for me a nine is just below i need to put this in my collection um unless it's a ten it doesn't need to be it doesn't need to be in my collection it might get into my collection yeah but i'm not going to be like tonight yeah this game um so in a few months whenever we play all the other ones i'll be very interested to see if you're kind of like

54:48 you know what actually kanban is probably not a 9 um right you said an eight right i did do you remember the other games because we've played lizbo and vino's together actually i think i don't remember vino so remember okay um did you like this both no he doesn't like this one either but again it's it's all the same i just don't play at this level i don't want to think this man you know i have no idea what those things are i completely forgot about [ __ ] i completely forgot about recycling you did it once and then i completely forgot about it don't worry we all forgot about that i mean even zach and i forgot about those until i was i was sitting there trying to figure out how to get bubbles without certifying and i was like oh yeah yeah for me that is there are so many rules and so many little things to remember that you can't remember them all and that's that's no longer fun for me yeah personally now as i recall lisboa uh it was an odd theme for me to get into right rebuilding after the tsunami earthquake and fires that ransacked it and are continuing yeah and it's like is this like a mythological game like what like does god hate this place well maybe but i don't remember hating it i don't remember i don't know yeah out of that's fair i mean i think i have played videos you have i know it's on the channel are you're in like maybe you did coke before coming up viticulture i just

56:19 don't remember no vegan 100 you're there um because you go on my channel watch venus if i was doing coke then i probably liked it i know you give them all high high scores um yeah i mean great design yeah i mean i certainly see the genius it's just a complexity level that i don't enjoy playing it right and once again there is something to say about this out of all the games of his i've played and the beauty of his designs are because in a lot of the games when they're complex it's like what do i do on my turn okay well there's 17 phases on your turn and it's like i'm [ __ ] out like but his games it's like okay what do you do on your turn you place your worker right that's it and it's like well that doesn't sound too hard well i need to teach like okay each of them has just this place does this which to understand this you need to understand this right and that's where it's complex games but they're so elegant in design right it's a giant wheel and so no spoke of the wheel is hard to understand right but if you don't understand the whole wheel it doesn't matter exactly you have to figure out in every single one of how each piece fits together but what what other games try and fail to do is they're just pieces there and you just have to be like hey i hope you can retain all this information and here it's like okay well how do you get cars on the racetrack well you need to actually manufacture them and you can tie all the mechanisms in this game into theme right which i believe help people retain it maybe not grasp it or

57:50 maybe not see you know to get you to even get points from cars you have to you know under the understand these four things but you can at least be okay i think i kind of have some understanding and that's whenever you develop more strategies from playing his games a lot more right um and out of all of his games kanban escape plan is probably his lightest one but i feel like kanban is just so brilliantly designed that it it's easier to play yeah which sounds weird because it's like well the skate plan is lighter but it's a little messier and here it's very very smooth it is so i don't know if that's part of the ev i think oh yeah we looked at his earlier board design it's like oh that's ugly and here it's just straight down right and if i mean after playing it a few times you're just gonna yep okay i already know where i need to go need to go need to go boom boom boom boom game's over and i got seven points i mean i'm sure i mean hopefully he sees this and he's sitting there and he's like you got 142. you [ __ ] suck you should have been doing this and this it's like stop you know you're so mean here why are you on my channel like you did with our liz boa like man he's like should have built it back better and i'm like get it i'm sorry dad with a belt uh all right so that's our thoughts on kanban let us know what you think of the game in the comments below other than that like comment share and subscribe and have a wonderful whatever time of day it is for you

59:20 hey everyone thank you for watching i really hope that you enjoyed the video if you would like to see more of my content go ahead and click that subscribe button and the bell to be notified whenever i upload any new content if you feel like supporting the channel you can go ahead and click that patreon link to be taken to my patreon and any help is truly appreciated other than that stick around for any any other run-throughs or reviews or cool top tens or whatever i feel like putting on other than that like comment share and subscribe and have a wonderful whatever time of day it is for you