TCbH Podcast - BGG Hall of Fame Inductees

[Music] hello and welcome back to the cardboard Herald podcast I am Eric joined as always by my lovely co-host Jack how are you doing today Jack I am full of burritos and ready to talk about board games I thought it was fajitas well I mean I guess I'm using burrito as like the overall genre and a sub type you know like I listen I didn't even have any tortillas here so they can't rightly be fajitas or burritos but I made all the fixin and had it on a plate and then ate it very fast it was very fancy it was very delicious and it is all the fuel that I need to talk about board games great amazing I'm glad that you are beaned up on a Saturday evening oh I'm beaned up in multiple ways more ways than one I got my coffee right here what' you have for dinner um I had actually I had black bean soup that I made a couple days ago that I R oh okay okay yeah it was uh just nice super uh easygo black bean soup I accidentally bought well not accidentally I did the I this part I did on purpose uh I was at the store and I the manager messed up and put a a 4B bag of dried beans on sale for like a doar 25 mhm but then I was just like oh well I'll just make all of them now and I'll use them in various ways and I should just not have made four pounds of black beans yeah at once I should have I should have spread that out more so then I also have like some burritos that are in the freezer uh that I will reheat as needed uh but what do you do for a flavorant in your soup because you're vegetarian uh when I think of black bean soup I think of like adding some things Smokey like a A chizo or a bacon or something but you know like there's all kinds of Alternatives that you can do or just different flavor profile so is it kind of more like a lentil is type of thing no uh I definitely do I mean it it fully depends I might do like a dried uh dried pepper from uh the yeah uh yeah just from that aisle of the grocery store or uh like cuz that'll give you a lot of smokiness as is but I just use I I use a ton of seasonings I mean I I I cook pretty regularly uh so I I use fresh fresh spices that I either toast myself like I I toast and grind my own cumin seeds most of the time uh now we're in the culinary uh The Culinary Herald podcast um hey we could be playing kitchen Rush right now you know like we could have I mean we could realistically be going for like some sort of imprint you know if we try to tie the culinary thing and the board game World close enough we could try going for like this is the cardboard Herald Edition that's true we could yeah maybe we go try and like get an expansion on kitchen rush or cardboard mirp cardboard mirp there you go there you go all right what we do on this podcast I don't know we talk about black beans we talk about beans um and we also talk about board games um I played I I finally uh was able to attend a uh board game night here in DC I had a lovely time playing camel up which is a rad game um I had not played before Oh that's your first time playing camel up yeah I love that game that game's awesome Yes uh so I have the original Edition does the the current I know that uh the current edition has like some visual differences but does it still have the like pyramid structure that is kind of like a toyish type thing that you drop Dice from in the middle y it has that it has the camels that stack on top of each other it has a random palm tree that like folds up with the board for no reason and I love it so much for that um yeah it has all of those that was the we were playing the second edition um and yeah I like I knew that game was awesome like I I know enough about it to know that it was really it's a fun game before I played right but then yeah that was so that was great I have a a hack for you for Camel up something that I recommend to anyone who likes that game and everyone who's done this has at least reported that they have continued to do it in perpetuity that is name all your camels really fun names like uh cammed off the white or you know the great green blur or you know something like that one it encourages everyone to get in character you know shouting over their camels like they're actually at a horse race or camel race or whatever but uh what we ended up doing was we started recording on sticky notes the names of all our camels and putting that on the inside of the box and that has been such a great legacy since owning camel up to see like the heritage of these different camels and we we have like almost camel breeding programs like we know that these are like the the sers and foremothers of various different camels uh it's it's a whole thing so naming your camels I think will increase immersion in camel up uh at least by 15 % I also love that you turned camel up into a legacy game that's fun that's rad yeah rob davia you know hit me up um but I got camel Up played I also am I'm trying to go much uh I I I'm back on the kick of spirit Island so I've been I've been going through the app on that the app is the app's good I've been I Flo an idea to you like a while ago which was do board game apps and like rank them which I have a ton of notes on but I'll put into a video at some point or another um but the spirit Island app I really did not like on my phone the first few times I tried it like years ago uh but I've tried it again recently and it works pretty well I don't know if there is like an update or if I'm just coming back to a fresh eyes but uh my phone is good I also uh inherit inherited sounds like my sister died my sister gave me an iPad my sister is still Fully Alive just just to be clear well you know I me in this world as far as you know she could be a spectre a ghoul that's true she could be a ghost could be fun a Type 3 spectral entity um but yeah Spirit Island on the iPad also really solid yeah so yeah I I've enjoyed it I I checked it out when it first came out and then I've also played the um tabletop Arena version and that one is very well implemented but also really expansive and it's a really big game so like it kind of assumes that you are someone who really jives with tabletop Arena um and if you do then I think it is everything that you could ever want or imagine or or not board game arena um or not tabletop Arena uh what a what why am I forgetting it the the tabletop simulator tabletop simulator there you go um I was you know Port man toeing board game arena and uh tabletop uh simulator but the TTS uh mod is really expansive uh but it's TTS uh I like the app a lot um have you played any new spirits that you haven't gotten to the table yet no I'm still just playing on on the base game so I haven't even I I still need to I I was trying that out to see if I wanted to unlock the rest of the game because it costs however much money uh it cost last night as much as the board game itself yeah yes I think I've heard that that's crazy uh that shouldn't be a thing um yeah so uh last night christe CA and I ended up playing uh spirit Island as well I thought I saw that in the background is that yeah yeah well it's I don't know why I'm it's somewhere over there um it's uh we played two of the horizons of spirit Island Spirits uh but playing with the full Invaders uh I don't know Brandenburg Prussia or whatever um a couple notches of difficulty up and I thought because we were playing the more approachable simpler spirits that we would have a harder time and oh my God we wrecked face like I was the I never remember the names the mud snck uh who you know squiggly neck uh yellow uh snack dude I think it I think it's an otter it looks like an otter to me you no no no no no no not not the otter guy he kind of looks like a dinosaur uh and he's got like mud coming out and everything yeah yeah and then uh she played the like trees with eyes in them and she just like defended a bunch and then I like took my neck and just smacked down on all the Invaders and we rolled them it was kind of crazy we got a simultaneous um full fear Victory the same moment in which we destroyed the last uh city so we got like double victories at the same time it was crazy um I'm not a chiropractor but I I do think that I would have to recommend against using your neck as a weapon well I mean hey evolution is a crazy thing and spirit evolution is probably double so um did Darwin study it you know like when he was at the galpagos do you think he studied Spirit Evolution he probably should have I'm an idiot I shouldn't go on this tangent I've already brought us on enough tangents here okay board games got to bring it back see this is what happens when I'm full of beans um so uh blame it on the beans terraforming Mars the dice game I played that I sent you a meme about it have you played it I have not okay so I played this at platypus con uh and it's uh and then I also played it uh afterward I ended up with a copy of it uh through means through events so I played it twice it just isn't that great like I want it to be great I want the dice to be great I want a lot of fun and exhilarating cool stuff to come out of dice but terraforming Mars at its heart and what it preserves uh throughout the original game Aries Expedition and this is this sense of cultivating this like monst engine where you are just popping off so many cards all these projects that are coming together and by having your resources all be dice it feels like you're constantly working against the resource system in the game which is the opposite of what you want out of an engine building game which it still is it preserves that core element it just is at odds with itself takes a little bit longer than it should is not as poppy uh as you really want out of a dice game it's not as precise as you want out of a terraforming Mars game it's not terrible it just it kind of pales in comparison to the original and in particular my favorite and I think your favorite as well AR's Expedition yeah um yeah other than that I mean I played a ton of stuff at platypus con that could be a podcast and in of itself but the one thing I wanted to mention um is I got to play the new misor uh game Rad Rad yeah yeah it that is a really interesting game because it it doesn't do that much that's novel from a deck building game perspective and uh John declair was the guest of honor at platypus con which was really cool to have him up played a bunch of games with him I played mbor with with him uh and he even admitted that you know like he typically goes for something a little bit more mechanically Innovative than this but because of the licensed property you know he was trying to go for a specific thing and most of the game structure feels like it could have come out 10 years ago not to say it's bad it just doesn't feel like completely novel this is going to be the um the game that you sweeps you off your feet or anything but it does make use out of eight unique resources that you have which are the different metals from the the Mis born uh you know the the common Metals used uh in the story and make sense out of that to make an approachable deck building game where you are navigating so many different potential resources in a way that feels fluid that feels smart that feels flexible that you can still lean into a couple of those any given game and have unique outcomes I think that is really the achievement uh it adds a layer of nuance to a more or less traditional deck building system I think it manages to evoke the the setting and tone of the cosmere and in particular the mbor books a lot more than a typical deck building game boid uh so you know like for me as a fan of that stuff as a as a Sanders sonian Fanboy I I think it succeeded I don't know that you need to rush out and buy this unless you are a super fan or you are just really into deck building games but I it was one of the more positive things to come out of the convention red and is is the deck building game just the first like in terms of the story just first book do nods to the other in the original trilogy I think that from what I saw which I actually got to play some unreleased materials a prototype of an expansion there uh but it seems like the base game is predominantly focused on the setting and uh events of the first book without really even spoiling what happens in that first book um those that have read it know that there's a pretty substantial uh change of just change of how the world looks from the beginning of the book to the the end of the book uh and you know power structures and that kind of stuff uh and I think it is all kind of set in a vague this is the first half of the first book if it's not going spoil anything beyond that cool fun well glad I'm glad that you got that played um and I think that uh with mistborn being it sounds like a little bit of a uh celebration of many older more structured deck builders as good of a segue as any into our topic for this week which is the board game geek Hall of Fame I I have a couple different thoughts on this uh but just I have a couple of different thoughts on that transition but let let's let's I think okay I think that one was pretty good all things considered that was labored that was that that had to be tortured into place um you know the Lord ruler had to stretch that one out a little bit to to get it to land but okay okay okay so BGG Hall of Fame what is this thing so uh Board Game Geek announced that they are inducting uh they're creating a Hall of Fame where they're going to induct 25 games a year for the foreseeable future I assume at least at least a few more years um and they have they actually said that it's going to be 25 per year or just 25 to start because this is a celebration of 25 years of BG G right yeah I believe I saw that they are doing 25 games a year I I I'm now not seeing that but I'm pretty sure I read that uh at some point or another in the uh yeah let me let me take a little Gander but uh yeah I think that's I think what I'm saying is correct of course I do but that I think I think that's um pretty sure that's the case but they go ahead oh I I was just going to kind of follow up with that like so this is uh their nominations for games that uh is separate from what is often looked at as the definitive best games of all time list which is the BGG top 100 which is a little bit more fluid and is user based right you know that's where people's uh you know uh analytics the algorithm is going into generating who is on top and there have been longstanding games that have been in the top 100 and it's an event when something overtakes one game or another um there have been periods of years where the top game is the top game and they've been a little bit opaque about the the uh analytics like go into uh a ranking of a game but before you know like a year ago two years ago 10 years ago if someone were to be like where can I find a list of the best games of all time the easiest thing to point someone to would be to say just look at the BGG top 100 and this is now B saying well that's one thing but here's this other thing yeah and I think that uh this this is at least from the marketing of it seems to be more of a celebration of games that have shaped the history of board gaming in a way so there are a lot of games on here that uh are nowhere near the top 100 but uh at least at this point but they they maybe have like changed how board gaming is perceived by the general public changed how board games are designed uh there are a couple in here that I think really fit that mold where it is just like this established a genre that is like super prevalent now such as I think Dominion is one of those where it's like that built deck builders right which are just such a huge part of our our our hobby right now uh and there are a couple others that are in there that are in in a similar way a this established a genre or changed how how we think about board games in a way yeah so I I think just for us and for listeners I'm just want to read this mission statement that's if you Google BGG Hall of Fame then you'll uh come to this page and we'll have a link to this in the the show notes and everything but the mission statement is the games in the BGG Hall of Fame are recognized for being noteworthy and historically significant board games many of the games on this are great games but beyond that they are games which are important and influential they are the groundbreakers and innovators and even when newer shinier games catch our fancy we cannot deny that these games form the building blocks of our Hobby and here's the important like metrics here or or you know like the plan to be eligible for the BGG Hall of Fame a game must be at least 10 years old the voting process is held once a year and is open to the entire BGG Community current a game wait a second wait a second am I looking at something way way old am I looking at like an ancient list this is from January 2011 what are you looking at what am I looking at I I was looking for the BGG Hall of Fame we might have to we might have to go back here cuz I was really confused you started reading a mission statement I'm like that is not on the page I'm looking at where is where are you finding this I just Googled BGG or Board Game Geek Hall of Fame and it was the first thing I'm going to put this into Skype um because a lot of these things wait where do I go to chat okay so now if I go to geek preview okay now I'm on the official BGG Hall of yeah I think I think what you pulled up is just somebody who made an account called BGG Hall of Fame that is not the official one I think this is just some list or some guy let's see uh yeah uh Rishi yeah I guess so okay it's currently maintained by Rishi all right so well what I have here is uh the and this is this is the official one don't don't listen to Jack and his lies the you're going to have a a Time editing this for sure it's okay no I'm leaving all this in this is funny the board game geek Hall of Fame honors games that have made meaningful contributions to the board game Hobby and the areas of innovation Artistry and impact uh by curating this distinguished list board gang geek seeks to preserve the history and evolution of board gaming while inspiring and informing a global community of players who have a passion for Gam games additional games will be inducted annually as the world of board games continue to evolve um at the moment it seems the selection process is a jury of dedicated and experienced players is the information we have about them uh board games have to be at least 10 years old uh in order to ensure widespread engagement and recognition uh Additionally the jury identified and included games that while perhaps less widely played have had a profound and lasting impact on the hobby uh the other note they have here is that uh it focuses on Modern board games that have directly shaped the Contemporary hobbying Community games such as check back gamon go and traditional 52c card games uh fall outside the scope of these Awards all right well now we have the actual rules and I am looking at the actual list here I man that things were starting to go like oh users can vote on wait a second I thought this was an independent panel because I was actually like following it as it came along they need to they need to work on uh Google they need to work on Google get their SEO better they got to improve their SEO they got to improve it we all are working on it I mean get enough pings from spam mail where people are like we can make sure that you end up at the top of the blah blah blah blah I'm like ain't no one doing that for cardboard harell no anyway um so uh the games you you can look up your the list yourself but I guess we'll really quickly run through the 25 games uh I don't think that it makes sense for us to do like a deep dive into every single one of these uh that just is kind of not I I think a good use of our listeners time or our time uh but the games inducted this year in the order that BGG has been listed is diplomacy acquire Cosmic Encounter civilization 1830 Railways and robber barons Magic the Gathering the settlers of Katon El Grande tigress and Euphrates Raw carcasson power grid Ticket to Ride kis Twilight Struggle Through the Ages agrica brass race for the Galaxy Dominion pandemic Seven Wonders the castles of burgundy Tera mystica and Concordia those are the first 25 games inducted uh as of right now so I think that there's I I don't uh based on what I'm seeing there's not a ton of G that I would disagree with on here uh I think especially if this is meant to be like a we are preserving in history the legacy of board games in a similar way like baseballs hall of fame or any of the other Hall Sports hall of fames like if that's what this is kind of supposed to be molded after where it's like these are super iconic games that inspired a ton of board games or like we super influential to the Hobby uh I I think that there's a ton here that I I don't think there can can be a ton of disagreements with at least this list I I yeah there there are some omissions uh I think and and there are some games that I think I would trade out um or or at least I do a little bit more horse trading with like for example we have three pretty iconic worker placement games with El Grande kis and Agricola and I recognize that all three of those um uh do uh slightly different well I I I I guess I I uh misspoke there uh I'm we have two worker placement games with uh uh agrica and kis uh and area control by way of Euro um with uh El Grande uh so let's let's leave Al Grande on there let's let's leave that on there uh but uh kis and agria they do different things but I think they play in the same territory I think one of those could have been an addition later on um and I don't necessarily have a huge dog in the fight other than I think agrica is the better and ultimately more uh recognized and Community Building uh game but I I think there's room for some lighter games that uh weren't recognized on here like honestly I would trade one of those for say King of Tokyo uh as a game that um really built up uh a lot of uh uh Goodwill in the hobby towards Dice and yatsi type mechanisms um maybe that doesn't really work very well because Richard Garfield is already on here I was GNA say Richard Garfield's already on there I think we're I think he's s away and that's actually the one that I I I guess find the most perplexing I don't disagree with magic the Gathering in terms of like that is obviously like such a behemoth but it it feels really tangentially related to the modern board game hobby like I know that there is quite a bit of crossover with TCG players and board gamers like that the there's overlap there but I just feel like magic the Gathering is definitely like the biggest most inlu influential trading card game but I guess I it seems odd to include that in the board game key call of yeah it seems like if you're going to include that then you have to at least give consideration to something like Warhammer and then if you're going to give consideration to Warhammer do you need to give consideration to Dungeons and Dragons like if we're talking about one of the most influential tabletop games that half of the games on this list depend on some of the innovations that came out of that those early years of role playing then D and D is definitely going to be there and even in the description of magical Gathering as their their blurb uh for the Hall of Fame here they mention uh richer Garfield took inspiration from Cosmic Encounter and Dungeons and Dragons so you know like yeah I don't know it it it does seem like if you're going to bring in something tangential like that it opens up the space and kind of muddies the list a bit Yeah and then that also goes to why why is it magic the Gathering and not like and not Dungeons and Dragons like I feel like if you're already going to go tangential Dungeons and Dragons is the incred in my at least in my opinion the incredibly much more influential to our hobby game that isn't quite a board game g game right but it's you know I I think in a in a vacuum I can understand why Magic Gathering is included on this list in terms of preserving a cultural phenomena that is a tabletop game and it's yeah I I guess I could see mechanically it is very influential in that there are a lot of board games that are trying to be a box board game interpretation of magic like this is Magic but um and that could just be this is Magic but it's not collectible or this could be magic but you have minis to represent your you know wizards but otherwise you're essentially playing Magic or it could be magic except you have this kind of Commander type of guy but now magic has commanders that's I say magic has commanders what are you on about yeah yeah um this is what happens when you give me too many beans you shouldn't have fed me fajitas for dinner ER came all the way up from DC um too strong but okay so so magic is is a perplexing Poll for you um my uh uh overzealous uh poll of three but actually two uh worker placement games I don't know what I was thinking there again the beans um but uh I don't know when when you picked this topic I I know I floated as an idea but were are some of the things that you know you thought uh would be good to discuss here um I think the things that I thought would be good to discuss is one notable omissions because I think there I think there are a few that are are there are some where I I kind of get it uh which we'll we'll talk about but I think notable emissions then also uh either predictions for future years based on this list or also uh um just kind of our thoughts on the concept as a whole I feel like we kind of got our thoughts as the concept of the whole I'm for it I think that it's really fun for us to have like this thing of this is another thing to Aspire to in our hobby when you're designing a board game is you want to get a game that will one day make the Hall of Fame I think for our hobby it also makes sense for it to be this like big thing that is annual once a year right uh capped like 10 the game has to be out for 10 years beforehand uh to be eligible I think that makes sense uh just like the general impact so that we're not getting like the cult of new where it's like some I I love like just for example I love arcs I don't think that should be in the Hall of Fame yet like that that game is fresh course let's let's let it simmer let's let it see how it how the reactions go and then also you might be able to stop yourself from putting in a game that has a controversy attach attached to it later uh such as at least in my opinion the biggest notable Omission but we'll talk about that when we get to emissions what are your thoughts on just the concept as a whole well I mean as a big music guy this immediately brings to mind the uh Rock and Roll Hall of Fame which there's a lot of uh people who absolutely love and pay attention to that every year and a lot of people who just think that it's all a bunch of BS like all award ceremonies can potentially be um and when it's a private company that is maintaining some sort of award system then I I think there's always going to be some degree of distrust uh in the process uh and um if it has ulterior motives fortunately I think Board Game Geek uh for the whole uh H has become a and you know self-identified and continued to be the the the Hub of all things board games that everything es and flows out of even if you're not a regular user it is so integral to theate of the Hobby and has so much influence over the state of the hobby right now that I think it makes sense uh that board game geek is doing this uh I would like uh to have a little bit more transparency about like what the process is um you know I I get that there's a voting jury uh who kind of work this out um and I understand that it's not always the best to show how the the sausage is made like we don't get Insider uh Intel on how like Academy Awards are determined and everything right but this isn't an award for new things that are coming out right now this is trying to recognize for the community as a whole um these games and in doing that I I think either it needs to have some sort of component where the community can weigh in uh or it should have uh more transparency on how uh the games are initially nominated and then uh ultimately selected but as a thing I'm for it I mean us board game content creators we love lists right yeah we love lists this is great we love lists and if you don't like this list well you really don't have to engage with it like it doesn't inherently change anything on Board Game Geek at least as of right now now maybe 5 years from now it'll have some greater impact on how things are are handled um or if this like impact sales or you know revisions of older games that kind of thing but for right now it's a pretty innocuous thing yeah oh and there's on okay yeah I was going to say oh I wonder if with this uh if you have uh a um like badge or something on there because I think that would be a fun way of being like Oh yeah this is this is a game and they have a thing where it's just like Awards and honors 2025 for ging call of Fame and duct right so it's there it exists um I think more transparency in the system is great I that also makes sense where it's like you know it would be good for us to know exactly how the list is put together um but I can also see it being like like the Oscars where it's uh you know you you get what you get you find out who won and that's about the end of the process is there any game on this list that you would just straight up take [Music] off aside from Magic we've already talked about mag Magic Gathering would be would be the one um aside you know like the the worker placement thing aside um maybe this this isn't uh reflective of the community as a whole but I Dro teram mytica like especially in favor of what I think we're going to uh say as the the biggest uh Omission being uh Puerto Rico yeah um we can say the name now it's been we've now broken the seal we can now say the name yeah but even if we're not bringing in Puerto Rico for you know controversial reasons or because of you know the content has an age or whatever I I still think teram mystica is kind of an obscure pick on here while it made a big splash at the time to me Teresa is one of those kinds of games where it was a big deal when it came out but it's not really that big of a deal now like I don't really feel its influence uh as far and wide as so many of these other games on here yeah I think that terram mystica is fair in terms of you know I think that its influence has not spread much past the big the big splash it made when it was released um I think I love pandemic and I think that it has a massive like it in itself is like a pretty sizable following I don't know if I necessarily think that it's like if it should be on here in front of some of the other omissions like I think pandemic is maybe not a year one inductee I guess it did a ton for Co-Op yeah I I disagree I think that it is if there's any game that represents the the popularity of Cooperative gaming and that endless amounts of Cooperative games were based off of it be pandemic I mean having the fortune of interviewing both Matt leok and Bruno catala who both site the Lord of the Rings uh Rin arenia Cooperative game as like the direct inspiration for both pandemic and then Bruno catala um talked about it influencing Shadows over Camelot which is a massively influential uh hidden Trader game yeah um I think the case could be made that you'd be going back to uh the Lord of the Rings yeah but that was more of a niche thing that two really uh smart creative individuals jumped off and made their own things and those are the things that kind of inspired everything to come so I like pandemic on here Plus rard Ken is going to get enough love on this list eventually I mean's he's already got tigis Andres here and if they keep on doing this year after year I don't know how they're going to escape uh well he's also got Raw on yeah he's better to say he also is raw he has two games on here so he's probably he's okay he he's all good he doesn't need anymore um I I think for me I mean I said it kind of at the start where I think that all of these games it's difficult to disagree with any specific game on this list but I do think that the uh omission of Puerto Rico is just it's a statement I think that that's like clearly saying that because of the content of that game which I I actually am kind of fully behind it because this is despite the fact that I really enjoy the mechanics I I can't I don't want to play that game with anybody like I don't want to teach it to anybody because of the content and I think that it just right the the statement that board gang geek is putting out there with omitting it from this because that's like the longest lasting number one spot in for Game Geek like in their algorithm ranking Puerto Rico's spot at number one was the longest lasting and the fact that it's not on this list basically is their statement of because of the very poor aging of that games premise yeah ised let let's let's just acknowledge what this is so uh Puerto Rico um like many games before and since uh is a game of colonialization where you are uh playing um as the the profiteers and perpetrators that colonialization and you are exploiting uh the people and the land and Puerto Rico is one of the games where it is the most transparent about that's what it is that's what you're doing we're not making qualms about this like even the colors of the cubes are not making mistakes about what it is you're doing in this game um and that is taking realworld tragedy and not contextualizing it in any way uh as a tragedy and putting you in direct control of the um uh the the the perpetrators without kind of admonishing that now I You could argue it's not a game's uh responsibility to teach morality or to give commentary or perspective or anything but if games are more than just distractions then I think context is important I mean we care a lot about historical games right and historical Gamers for time and Memorial have always wanted some sort of authenticity um and that also brings with it a degree of controversy and when we are doing something that is a retrospective I think it's important to give that sort of context now I don't know that Puerto Rico should be removed uh like maybe it should be an honorable mention or maybe it should be on here with some sort of disclaimer in the same way that I think uh say Gone With the Wind um is an important film to film history and I think uh that it should still be uh viewed as a a milestone in the development of Cinema however it should definitely be contextualized for what was overlooked at the time as being a problem and why it is a problem now and the responsibility of the people who make these things to add that context at this point um so yes I think they're making a statement and I agree with you I don't want to play Puerto Rico I I used to love playing archipelago and archipelago is a game that eventually you know actually after talking to the designer I thought there was some legitimate commentary within the game and after talking to the designer and realizing that no that there there is no satire in this game whatsoever ever I was like oh now I just look at this and feel disappointed in playing this game um and may maybe that should have been an obvious uh from the beginning but you know like people change opinions change feelings change it we can't entirely like whitewash our history and pretend these things don't exist and so I I understand from that perspective why I think it should at least be in the footnote here uh however I do think that it's important that we call out uh particularly notable atrocities uh when we're looking at things in retrospect like this yeah and I think that uh I would be interested if they just didn't want to include it as like these are the first 25 games inducted these are the 25 games we felt most confident should represent our hobby uh I would be interested to see if it makes it on like next year when it's like okay we're we're doing you know we are going to induct it we're going to put a footnote at that point or if they were just I mean the this is another thing they could have been doing which is just like testing out to see how people react to Puerto Rico not being there and seeing if it should get in next year um honestly I think they should have just made it a footnote on race for the Galaxy because race for the Galaxy for a lot of people is like hey this is Puerto Rico but in space and a little bit better like that it it shares so much DNA and had so much comparison that putting a race for the Galaxy in here I think is that acknowledgement that we're not putting Puerto Rico um that's that statement right right yeah but that was also their opportunity to provide that context and recognize that game um which you know like everyone's going to have an opinion and everyone's going to do things a little bit different and we on this channel like when we're making our list of games you know like we have to make decisions about what lines we draw uh how much we want to get into the sausage getting made and you don't want to necessarily let the audience drop D everything uh as well because that undermines the the intent and integrity um of uh of the the the thing itself right you know if they went and added a 26th uh thing that was Puerto Rico that wouldn't be great that would not feel good that would show the pressure on it and if they added it next year I think everyone would speculate oh Board Game Geek is just giving in to you know adding it I don't love how it was approached here I don't love Puerto Rico for that matter you know like I'm I'm fine with it just being a footnote um but I I feel like it was a little bit Rocky how they handled not including it but I'm fine with them not including it yeah and I think that's you know it's not it's not in this year I don't know if it didn't make it in this year I I personally am going to be surprised if it makes it in next year um and speaking of there's quite a few games that I'm interested to see if they will make it um CU I I guess first of all if it's 25 games a year every year that's too many like if they're doing 25 games a year like I guess is like a first let's get a set standard list of 25 games that then we will add more games on to Uh I that makes sense but I I think 25 games a year is too much um I think the the only other notable emission to me uh was access and allies I'm not a big access and allies guy uh but for the people who grew up playing risk you know like it was their goto I playist with my family on Thanksgiving or whatever um access and allies to me is that step in between modern gaming and uh the the classic uh War gaming that is mass Market available um and so I I'm just kind of flabbergasted that it's not on here yeah I think some some ones I have down here as uh in at least kind of in my opinion and kind of reading comments about it uh as notable missions are uh Puerto Rico and we've talked about that uh Twilight Imperium uh viticulture laav laav laav laav I I don't think laav uh necessarily belongs on here but I I I get I get you I I it's one that I've seen a couple different times um Mage night which I don't think needs to be on here but just I I have seen as like uh I think I'm trying to let me see what it was there is a uh list that had a lot of overlap uh where it was the the his the geek Madness Tournament mhm um I guess this isn't where I found Mage Knight um but the geek Madness Tournament is a once per year uh tournament where people vote on their favorite games uh of all time uh Puerto Rico is the highest voted like it's it has the second most of those tournament wins uh to not be in the Hall of Fame and then next up is war of the Ring that's 17 yeah warther ring seems like it probably should be if not on this list then definitely next year um laav I don't think needs to be on here U Rosenberg Ori has representation and it does something different for sure than agrica uh but um I don't think we need it uh vulture no like I I love viticulture VI culture may still be my favorite ston Meer game um and is one of my favorite work or placement games of all time but we already have like I'm already kind of chafing at the presence of worker culture and if you're going to only have one in there it should be either kis or um gria um King of Tokyo uh is one that I mentioned like I I really feel like there's not a ton of representation of lighter games on this list um the only argument that I could see for Mage Knight is to have some representation for solo games because it's such a popular solo game but I also don't like Mage Knight I have owned and gotten rid of Mage Knight three times in my life uh so I am firmly on the I don't like Mage Knight uh train and I think there's better picks to have representing uh solo and the popularity of uh solo gaming um beyond that um yeah I think well I think in in two years we're going to have I think the best solo game uh become eligible and hopefully become a first ballot uh because uh and we have a couple options there actually a really good solo board games uh in so in 2017 so in two years both Spirit Island and Gloom Haven will be eligible and I hate you for saying that Spirit Island and Gloom Haven are about to be 10 years old I mean I realize that's 2 years from now but I still view those as like the new hotness and now I'm old I have to imagine both of those will get in pretty quickly um one one thing to note at least in this list is uh they said a game has to be 10 years or older um the only game from 2015 is Through the Ages and then you have Concordia from 2013 terisa from 2012 castles of burgundy from 2011 and every game before is is from 2010 or earlier um so I I think that what about Mafia or werewolf we don't have a hidden Trader you know I mentioned um that uh you know the the influence of Lord of the Rings on uh Shadows over Camelot which would be a fine inclusion if Mafia and werewolf are a little too tangential uh but then you know like the massive popularity of the resistance or Avalon uh would be great because they inspired countless games since um so there's definitely a a lineage there that if they're not included this year then they definitely should in the future and we're still seeing games that are uh being um developed that are riffs on that same Central conceit uh that goes all the way back to you know like a bunch of college students playing mafia whatever you know 30 40 years ago or whatever I I mean I'll say even back in 2015 I was playing like nonstop werewolf in college like that was like my my friends and I would just be like we're coming over and we're going to play we're going to play werewolf just non-stop pretty much uh it it still has like a massive like that genre has such a massive influence I think still just in terms of approachability and also being like a lighter weight game that non gamers are down to play like that's mhm I'm kind of surprised with that that there isn't a hidden Trader game just kind of uh put into the legacy of board games uh the influence that has had on our on our hobby um yeah the only other one um and I just recorded a podcast for board gang geek earlier this week about uh hidden movement and so maybe this is just something that's personal to me that hidden movement isn't as pervasive as um uh as I I'd like it to be uh so maybe I'm just biased but uh Scotland Yard is from 1983 and I very much view that as uh a lot of people's introduction to Modern hobby games um and if not Scotland Yard then maybe furi a Dracula or letters from White Chapel as an older uh super influential hidden movement game yeah and I think that that's I can see Scott lyard making it next year I I think again this first list I I feel like they just tried to get a ton of games that people wouldn't disagree with and they wanted to also get games from all over the history of board gaming and I think this is as solid of a basis as they could get I just you know we we kind of hope that they Rectify missing some of these bigger genres and also missing some games that you know deserve to be remembered right um yeah and so like I these games that I'm talking about I don't know if they're necessarily like uh you know super big emissions and it invalidates the the Integrity of the list and it's more so like if they're trying to do it right these are some of the games that I think that if they didn't recognize him this year then they should be priorities for the future for sure yeah um I think that's as good a time as any to kind of wrap up any thoughts we have I think that you know interesting job or good job interesting list I'm here for it I'm excited to see what makes it in next year just so that we kind of have a because I guess my thought is I don't I kind of don't know what to expect the next class to be like I don't know what the next class of 2026 Board Game Geek Hall of Fame is going to look like uh but you know it's their first year so we'll we'll find out I guess excellent I'm looking forward to it we have a few listener questions uh that were sent into us uh for all of our listeners out there you can also be in this section of the podcast please feel free to comment on this video on YouTube or on Spotify uh or email us in at cardboard Herald gmail.com uh we have a couple we also post sorry this is back we also post a community post uh before we record each week uh so you can also comment on that um the first one is from Blue SEC Pearl AKA Tim hello Tim hey Tim uh what are your thoughts on blinging your games uh for example inserts metal coins upgraded resources versus buying new games as someone who lives in a tiny apartment in a city I hear you Tim I am there with you yeah I tend to bling out my games to entice my friends to revisit games over and over I also really like assembling wooden inserts as it Mak setup and tear down a breeze that said the wooden insert for Twilight Imperium was a with more than 40 traits yes yes um I mean I think that this hobby has an issue with the cult of new where it's you have to buy new games like as soon as they come out uh I I a lot of board game reviews push like buying a new game pretty much as soon as possible uh in some ways or at least just brings your attention to the fact that oh there are constantly new games that you need to play to have context for what we're talking about um and I think that if you have a game that you love and you know you're going to play again and again uh having upgraded pieces or having inserts that makes getting the game onto and off the table a lot easier like I know the Gloom Haven uh insert is from from all I've heard from you and then see it online is like a lifesaver to actually get Gloom Haven onto and off the table in a reasonable amount of time right and I mean we talked about board game components last week and I think that this is a little bit of an extension of that which is if you going to be playing a game over and over and you want it to feel like premium experience each time uh I have no issues with blinging games versus buying a new game yeah uh especially with having limited space as a person who just moved and also has a apartment where I am always on the verge of running out of board game Space uh uh I currently have some space at the moment that will be filled soon but you know I think blinging your games is a super viable option yeah well I mean between the two of us I'm definitely the person who's investing more in upgrades to my games um and I think you know it's one of those things it's money is going to be a relative thing for anyone uh but um naturally I am someone who invests in my games and the games I love part of that expression is to upgrade them I've made clay components for my stuff I like painting minis or you know dry brushing minis I like making little uh reference cards for my games I like making custom inserts when foam core was the hotness I got some foam core made some foam core inserts I I've you know like 3D printed i' I've done all kinds of things because that's part of the expression of love and joy and an outlet for creativity and craftiness um which I think works beautifully um you know those things in concert uh and I agree that we should be really celebrating the games that we love instead of always going to new games um one because of the space being an issue and two you hit a critical mass of games where you start feeling like there's an obligation to get them all played at a certain regularity and then you're suddenly playing games out of obligation instead of out of joy you know like oh I haven't played this one so we might as well play this this one even though I'd really like to play Hansa Tonica or you know like whatever um so if it's a difference between buying a game that's going to be a quick distraction and you're not even sure that you're really going to love it or it's something that's going to actually elevate your joy in a game go for it um great components aren't going to fix a bad game and also I think there's a Tipping Point everyone's going to have to evaluate it themselves you know like um there there's a fine line between elegant and obscene uh and when like the weight of the game the the joy that you can actually get from the the the game play is far exceeded by the quality of components uh it kind of becomes a little bit weird but um yeah I I'm all for it I don't sleeve though sleeving that's not me um the next question we have is from Shan Shan's 3911 uh I may have asked this before but do you consciously or subconsciously enjoy a game more when you win uh he goes on to say sometimes if I pull off something great and win I will have the reaction of this game is awesome when I may not have if I have loss uh also do you enjoy a game more when you teach it versus learning it I think I enjoy games less learning them but that might just be uh he's not as interested in those games yeah um well I think there's probably some bias in that if you are the the the uer gamer of your group and you tend to learn all the games and this is a game that you haven't gone out of your way to learn and someone else is teaching you then yeah maybe that that's just speaking to that you didn't go out of your way to to learn it so you weren't that interested in it that that's just uh you know a correlation there but personally I I think with how many games I have to learn at this point even though I tend to own the most games in my game group I always relish when someone else is teaching me a game um I enjoy the experience and I also like giving someone else the opportunity to not have to feel like I'm just barking at them all the time um but winning or losing I honestly this used to be a much bigger problem for me like when I was in my early 20s I think that um just the importance of winning was much more um was was much more meaningful to me and because of that uh if I lost a game I would look for ways to deflect my own insecurity and so part of that could have been blaming the game as opposed to uh blaming you know my own skill or chance or whatever and as I become more of a you know healthy adult that is less of a problem and so I can play a game lose terribly and go oh my God this is awesome um that said I tend to do better at games that I really like because I invest myself I it clicks with me in ways so I think I Trend towards doing better at the games that I like as opposed to liking more the games that I do good at yeah I think that's fair I think that I I mean I'll say when it's like my wife and I playing a game together she wins a ton more and I still love playing those games like I she she anytime we play Splender she destroys me uh anytime we play like Ascension she destroys me she's played it so much more than me that she she just has me the ruthless she she is really good at a lot of these games that we play frequently and I'm still Happ having a ton of fun with them but that's also because I've already like I know these games I know that I enjoy them even if I'm losing I think but but you're at a convention it's the first time you played a game and you just lost horribly I think I can see it being if I lost poorly but I can by the by the end of the game be like oh I lost poorly because I did XYZ wrong and now that I've played the game I know a a better way of approaching how the game Mechanics Work mhm uh I am still going to enjoy that game but if I feel like I lost the game and I'm just like I'm still lost in space like I I have no clue what I did wrong it felt like I didn't like I'm sure there was a way for me to play that game better but I just don't know how right but I think that I would have that opinion if I won to so it's like a thing of if I just had was is like oh I won I have no clue what I did right well there's no there's no accounting for the well I guess there is accounting there's a whole field of accounting for the subconscious uh and it's impact on our perspective um there are many people who uh study that and make that their life's pursuit to understand more about that but as far as you know like if we want just a a little bit of evidence here um this is just one data point but for one of my favorite games of the year is kelp I have played kelp many times uh by the time I had reviewed kelp I had played it at least five times and I had not won it a single time I have won it once now but kelp I gave an exceedingly uh uh pleased review um over kelp and it was on the the top 10 games of the year for us and yeah it was a game that I I'm not good at kelp I I just am not good at it shark octopus freaking love that game but uh I need to get better fair enough so yeah I mean I think that um we're both we're both in the pool of for us it kind of doesn't matter but also I feel like we play enough new games that we we've both formed a strong enough like we I I don't know about you but I definitely look at games now with a much different light of broader picture what how did this game work right it we have a more academic approach to board games than just purely this is a facilitation of winning or losing well I definitely now becoming more involved with cardboard heral look at games and try to think how would I explain my opinions on this game to an audience even if I don't ever plan on doing that like I like I'm not going to make I'm not going to make a review on Camel up I haven't played like I played it twice I had a ton of fun that game is old enough that I'm am not going to do a review on it but even then I found myself going hm right how would I talk about this yeah well you know like you never know when you're going to have to talk about like your top 10 camel games or whatever and that might be it um so that's that and then finally we have our last viewer question coming into us from Andrew uh dear Herold thank you for referencing the uh dear Herold [Music] um from etiquette from our etiquette uh dear Herald would you be open to playing games with a chess clock or turn timer I have brought up this idea many times with my game group but I'm the only one who seems to think it's a good slash fun idea many poker tournaments have a turn timer nowadays and people have a set number of tokens they can use to extend their time uh is this Che and an agonistic for a casual game night um a couple other notes um I think it's probably too antagonistic for a casual game night I can see it I can see it having a really good presence and I actually think that it would be really fun to have a game that isn't like built around realtime strategy that like has it it's like you have two minutes to do your turn from start to finish I like have that kind of baked into it to help overcome analysis paralysis yeah I mean you don't want to do it as like a super passive aggressive non-confrontational way of calling out someone you know like if everyone at the table including the person who has the AP realizes that you're doing this just to circumvent their problem then maybe like actually acknowledging the problem and talking to them is the better way to go but if it is something meant to enhance fun um to to add an element of strategy or pressure uh to a game then I'm all about it I have played with a timer on Forbidden Island for example um we I've done timed games of forbidden island I've done other challenges like uh uh no talking you know completely nonverbal uh uh cooperative play on forbidden island or Forbidden Desert um timed challenges uh famously or at least internet famously about 10 years ago uh there was like a whole uh it was either Reddit or Board Game Geek thread on playing yatsi with a timer uh or not yatsi uh Jenga playing Jenga with a timer uh where each player only has two minutes and so that you know naturally forces people to not be careful and uh spend their time wisely I think that's really smart and in any sort of tournament play uh I could really see a timer being super integral to it uh for a casual night if it's with randos I wouldn't bring it if it's with like random people or new guests or you know people that you haven't played with regularly um that's going to add a level of pressure uh and intimidation that I think would just be uncomfortable but if it's with your friends who you regularly game with it's a game that everyone understands and is is comfortable with then yeah I think a timer is at least worth the discussion of like hey what if we play like Ticket to Ride but we only have six minutes each and so like when your turn comes up you you got to really run with it um or 10 minutes or whatever it is but uh I I think that could be a cool thing I think it could be fun well I also think that it could bring a whole new layer to some of these games where it is prone to analysis paralysis where it is encouraging you as a player to you know you're trying to do things not in the most optimal way you are trying to do things in the most real world time efficient way like I think to to ride with five minutes like you get five minutes the entire time maybe you maybe you had the chest timer rule where you when you hit the button you gain like 10 seconds or something like that right where I mean can get some time back but like I think that can be super I I can see that being a fun new way of experiencing a game that people are comfortable with I think for me it's it it seems seems like this has more to do with players at the table having analysis paralysis and that's a different discussion than do you need a timer on on casual game nights right and and I think that that can be part of the discussion but like I said don't make that like a passive aggressive thing if I had a player who you know like they are taking five times as long as anyone else like it is beyond reason and you know like you're you're starting to feel like you're not having fun gaming or other people have come to you and they're like hey I love coming to your house but I don't know just Eric takes these turns and it just kind of like we don't have time to do that we have to get a babysit or whatever then I would talk to Eric uh or whoever in this scenario and I'd be like hey so here's the deal I invite you to the house because I like gaming with you I want to keep on gaming with you but I have to address this man uh you take a long time on your turns and I get it that you're trying to get the most out of the game but it's not really compatible with everyone else at the table and in this setting so here's one thing that we could do um you know I I'm just throwing out there if this is an idea that you might be into what if we have just just kind of like a timer that everyone has and everyone is subject to and there's just kind of like an understanding that you're you know investing a certain amount of time and you are disqualified if you use up the entirety of your time in the game or it could be a certain amount of time to take your turn and just throw it out as an idea you know sometimes those are uncomfortable conversations I'm not saying that that's always going to be successful but in my experience people know when they're making other people just you know uncomfortable and sometimes they don't really have it in them to bring it up themselves especially if they're feeling embarrassed about their own you know AP or whatever and so someone else bring it up acknowledging it that kind of lets the the eror deflate a little the tension deflate and then you know like look for reasonable accommodations you know like I'm a state uh employee so you know if someone has an issue I don't look to get rid of them I look for how do we find a reasonable accommodation for this thing that you have and I think a timer could absolutely be that okay and then I think the more fun question baked into this and he does ask this later on uh what would be the penalty for running out of time in a three plus player game uh loss of turn deduct points loss of resources public shaming um I think I think you bring them out to town town hall and throw some Rotten Tomatoes at them yeah I I think a good old uh tomato or even stoning uh if uh you're wanting to get particularly medieval um but uh yeah yeah uh I guess we don't want the liability there my lawyers AKA Eric because he wears all the hats at cardboard Herald right now lot random hats yeah even though I'm the one without a hat at the moment exactly um uh he wears a lot of invisible hats uh is telling me we don't need that liability on our hands um I don't know I I think it really depends on the game um most of the time I would say that uh loss of turn where you just have to make an instant decision like yeah at that point and if you don't then I would say shaming you know like come on we all agreed to this just make a decision I think shaming uh I I see three different punishments as being viable uh shaming um either loss of turn or you punt your turn like the how the NFL draft does it where there is like a year the Minnesota Vikings just didn't submit their pick and then like every team after them could just run up and submit their pick and they would get to go before them so it's like two teams got their pick in before the Minnesota Vikings eventually got theirs in right uh and they were trying that that I think it came out that they were trying to trade back two spots anyway so it was fine it was fine but like if you don't take your turn in this in the amount of time it passes to the next person's turn until you are ready to take like you have to be like okay here's XYZ what I'm going to do I can see that being an option or we could just say like hey if it's like you get five minutes for the entire game use it as you want on your turns if if a game allows that or 10 minutes or whatever the time limit is um being like well if you run out of time you are not eligible to win yep like just being like if if they're if they're taking all of that time because they are trying their best to win that seems as fitting upon punish is any you just be like hey well you know these are the rules we're playing with you are playing outside of the rules and therefore you're not eligible to win the game and I think again context is everything if you're playing a hardcore tournament even if it's a tournament among friends then uh having to seed possible Victory is a you know totally viable outcome if you're looking for this is an you know method to try to overcome General AP then maybe if there's a two-minute timer on a turn someone doesn't have like a complete Game ending punishment yeah but maybe you encourage them all right time's up you got to make a decision uh and give them a little bit of forgiveness and kind of increase that pressure if it happens again and again because you got to remember like the person who has AP you know like that's their natural instinct they are changing their deep-seated behaviors and accommodating everyone else at the table by rushing if they normally Take 5 minutes and you're asking them to do what used to take 5 minutes in two or one then you're asking a lot I'm not saying that you're wrong to ask it but you know give give a degree of forgiveness as you kind of get them into a habit of moving a little faster yeah or the other option is respectful execution yes respectfully very respectful very elegant very elegant very honorable very Posh and uh you know I think if anybody who listens to the cardboard heral podcast takes anything away from this entire hour and a half that we've been talking is uh we are pro respectful execution I think our lawyers might need to talk to us again they might need to hit the books well uh the the the light went off my timed light on my plant right next to this so I think that is telling us to have a good night um and so I I don't think we need to have beans in the future we're just full assassin discussion I think we we beaned too hard we beaned too close to the Sun and we're going to have to take that uh into account for future podcasts but uh as always thank thank you Jack for chatting with me this evening thank you Eric thank you to our viewers for uh tuning in and listening in on whatever your preferred platform is uh if you have any questions please feel free to email them into cardboard Herald gmail.com or any of the other ways that we've listed uh and you might be featured in our next dear Herald segment um thank you for all our patrons for supporting us and have a good rest of your day later [Music]