This vs That Ep 2 Grogan/Waybright

0:06 welcome everybody to another episode of this versus that uh where we bring two geniuses in the in the board game realm and we bring that to head and we're gonna have this like trinity uh that you've you've probably never seen come together before and we were gonna decide the fate the future of board games and we're gonna do that

0:43 let's welcome our guests paul grogan and david waybright uh this is beautiful this is what what uh this is this is a meet up david you're brought up this is a meet up that has uh never been seen before i did and now i want it to be known i did not say that we were geniuses by any stretch of imagination now it's present company excluded paul grogan is a pure genius but i am certainly not that confident in my uh oh wow well in the introduction i was waiting for mark to say but the geniuses weren't available so we've got paul and david instead that's true that's that's that's accurate so that's the uh the benefit of recording this beforehand i can make the intro say exactly that so that's right and we're here today to talk about fonts right or whatever here's what yeah you know typefaces typefaces i'm sorry i apologize to all of those in the comments already we are breaking down we are eliminating uh five fonts from existence that's what this is about i've got a papyrus is the top of that list is comic sans going to oh i'm sorry that's at the top all right so let me let me tell everybody um what we're doing here actually you know what let's let's let you guys do a little introduction uh paul oh yeah so my name's paul grogan um i work full time in the board games

2:14 industry as gaming rules i'm a full-time rulebook editor and writer i also create various types of videos now i do a lot of how to play videos but i also do a lot of play through videos as well and in the background i also do some game development with various companies so yeah keeps me pretty busy i swear you're gonna say in the background is my backyard that's what i thought too i really thought that's what he was going to be talking about with the background yeah well you guys have got these nice backgrounds with games and everything else and my studio is just a blank wall so i figured i'd go outside so this is actually the view from my back are his sheep in garden background that is beautiful i would not be doing i would not be doing board game media if i lived with that background uh well i am with man versus meeple despite the fact that i had so many audio and video difficulties as these two can attest to prior to recording this uh we have a youtube channel and we do all sorts of board game reviews previews all sorts of content for board games uh i'm no genius but i do know a thing or two about board games at least these few back on my wall here okay so you know about five board games uh there are some off off frame too just to be clear it's about six that's great okay well unfortunately those neither of those uh none of those are on our list for today so uh and you grow a fine beard you didn't you didn't mention that it's coming you're all right you're covered anyway it is a beard it's

3:44 it's actually i don't know when i started and why i started it but here's the reason i kept it uh my wife likes it so there you go bonus every time i see because when i grow up my beard it's it's a lot of white in there as well and every time i see that i think i think of uh the new uh what is the new bad boys movie where uh will smith dyes his beard with coco i think it's called chocolate dark cocoa bean or chocolate cocoa bean or something like that or cocoa bean midnight but that's sorry that's what keeps popping into my head um that's why i don't grow my beard because i don't have to dye it all the time yeah i've only done it i haven't i my hair is actually naturally jet black and i dye it with a little gray because i want to look distinguished oh you're like one of those uh like one of those models those guys are like 25 but they're all like raped and jacked and they dye their hair and their beard's white so they look like look at this 60 year old who's jacked exactly you just described me 18. like this hoodie comes off and it's just like yeah it's washboard you don't even want to you don't even want to you don't want to know no i don't i don't i don't want to feel less about myself you do good yeah it'll hurt my self-esteem all right so why are we here let me let me explain so we are here to uh to determine the fate of board games 10 in particular 10.

5:07 okay uh we are going to be discussing 10 games we're going to be putting them head to head against each other and then in like a thanos infinity snap situation we are going to eliminate one of those games from existence they will never ever be played again now just because the game is eliminated does not mean that these anybody here these fine gentlemen or or this dirty bastard in the bottom corner um if it doesn't mean that we don't like the game it's a gun to our head situation you gotta choose one the fate of the universe depends on it i don't know how but that's you know that's beyond my that's my beyond my pay grade i just know it has to happen so so that that's how we're going to do it ready you said it has to be said me and david do not know in advance the 10 games that are on your list no no we have no idea what these 10 games are going to be and i already know that at some point in this show you are going to make me obliterate a game that i really like and i'm going to feel terrible for the rest of the day well that's what happens you made your choices you have to live with it but yes all i know all i know is that you have played these games that's it right that's all i know is that you've played these games yes you did give us a colossal list of games to go through and say yes no yes no i think i i checked yes on at least 90 of them hopefully yeah i think you only i think there was only

6:38 like three or four on your list that you didn't mark you did really well you did really no yeah but those those and a lot of them i've played like once or twice so yeah we'll see how this goes that's how that's how it works in this uh in this industry okay all right okay here we go oh and here's the thing if there's a tie i will be the tiebreaker as you can see my title i am mark maya the tie breaker and i will base my decision on your arguments so here we go and don't tell don't no don't give me the answers right away think about it think about it so first on the on the chopping block and uh i try to make these well whatever right i'm not gonna lead anything first first two games on the chopping block viticulture versus kingsburg so viticulture versus kingsburg so and keep in mind when you get rid of a game you get rid of all iterations of it so you get rid of all the expansions anything that would and this goes you know these games don't have the most uh expansions but if it was something like say pandemic anything with the title pandemic on it would just be gone oh wow this is further reaching than i thought the power that we have in our hands right now is a little intimidating with that said i know immediately my answer but i will uh patiently wait for paul yep paul do you have yours too i've got my answer

8:08 yeah what do you get are you going with me first yeah yeah let's go for you first so i have played kingsberg a couple of times i've played viticulture about three times i think both of the games fall into the category of the base game the first version of the game that came out needed fixing viticulture without tuscany for me was unplayable uh and kingsburg as well i believe that there were issues with some of the stuff but the expansion fixed that on reflection though i would keep viticulture uh over kingsberg i know i've not played kingsburg enough but yeah i'm i'm going with kingsbury i'm going with viticulture for this one okay so and that might be wrong so you just snapped kingsborough out of existence you just like done it's gone nobody ever gets to play kingsbury again yeah well it's all right all right well i feel lucky because i've only recently discovered kingsburg myself and started and played it quite a few times so i'm happy i got it in because if david agrees with you it's it's gone right all right david so uh this is interesting we're starting off with a little bit of a contest here because i'm going to have to snap viticulture out of existence uh now i will preface this just like paul did uh i've played these games i played kingsburg a fair amount more than i have viticulture i think it's possible in fact i'm almost certain i've only played viticulture once

9:38 however it was with the tuscany expansion so i don't really have some experience with the evolution that it went through with that expansion uh kingsberg i've played without the expansion i've played with the expansion um and this is why i would it's not so much why i would snap viticulture out of existence as it is why i would keep kingsburg and this kind of boils down to a lot of my arguments so you might hear this over and over today i think kingsberg is utterly more playable more accessible to a wider range of people and for me generally and this isn't everybody but for me that ends up typically being pretty high on my list of like what i like to keep what stays in my collection that sort of thing because i play with a wide variety of groups i'm often playing with people who are more casual gamers not sort of in the enthusiast board gamer scene uh and the mechanics that you have in kingsberg are really really fun i like the way that you're using the dice and i love i just love the look of the board too even though it's a big stack of characters um so kingsberg's the one that stays and viticulture is gone so we gotta split right away i gotta say to be honest i thought this was gonna be uh i thought this was gonna be a gimme due to the popularity of viticulture um because i think like i think if you went to like just your regular social media circles you went in there you talked to the people i think vidcon would probably would take that for sure yeah and uh and you guys bring both both

11:11 good arguments like i didn't even up until like a few months ago i didn't even know kingsbury existed it was one of those that just kind of slipped through and then somebody brought to my attention and we played it like four or five times in one sitting like we just went back to back to back to back to play it and um so like i liked i i really did like kingsburg so it's i i hate that this is i really thought you guys make this easy mark's like i don't want to have to choose one of us is getting up out of our chair and leaving right after you say whatever you're about to say the show's over what mark doesn't realize is that me and david have actually had an agreement beforehand that we're going to disagree on everything so actually we don't have to make any real we decisions earlier i i i too we he got video calls where i could look kingsburg so yeah well i i do agree with paul that viticulture on its own um i played it four times and remember the first time i was like this game is great second time i was like oh let's do it again by the time i got to the fourth play i was like i'm done with this game but once i included tuscany it just brought the game back to life like i don't think viticulture is like i think you need tuscany like you need you need both or it's the county original game with the base game cards i said i am never playing this game again i i felt that strongly about the the imbalance of the cards so yeah okay well yeah i actually saw just the other day someone someone had posted the question what games

12:41 must you absolutely play with the expansion and this one was mentioned a lot agreed agreed now kingsburg wasn't so that might mean kingsburg's better on its own but it also might mean that no one thinks about kingsburg oh oh this is this is paul we should sit back here and enjoy this i like watching martial i i think i know what you're going to go with and i'm uncomfortable with that as am i i okay if we got to keep one oh if i gotta make the pick this is i'm keeping viticulture i knew it was viticulture i'm keeping it oh i thought you were gonna pick kingsberg no kingsburg it's gone it's gone despite everything that you've just said about it yeah i know i know because okay go ahead let me let me tell you why i think you did this tell me if i'm right all right you were thinking of the greater good you were thinking of all the people who love viticulture you were like you know what i can't snap it out of existence regardless of how i feel what about all the people who love viticulture that's true i was far more selfish i was looking at this as which one do i like forget everybody else and that's fine selfish is fine but this i did make the decision based on what i thought like if i if looking back and thinking like out of these two what should like the masses try if they haven't tried i think it

14:12 should be viticulture um so that's kind of like where i based my decision um on that but it was it was tough because honestly sorry honestly i'll i'll probably go back and play kingsborough again because i've just recently discovered it so it's got a lot more longevity for me right now but now it doesn't even exist now it's snapped out of yeah fortunately you can't do that so my question i was going to ask is actually a moot point now is to you two especially david because you know the games i like should i be going to try kingsberg again because the last time i played it was just after it came out originally not that i can because it doesn't exist anymore but if it did exist it's it sounds like mark would say yes i mean i've got to be honest it's hard for me to give um you know and paul you know this we play so many games and all sorts of new stuff i am very cult of the new i have had kingsberg in fact i played the original game a long time ago and then when they did a reprint of it maybe what two years ago half a year and a half ago i bought it and i haven't played that copy that i bought um so but that's not that doesn't speak to kingsburg i have some of my top 10 games of all time have been on my shelf not played for the last year that's just how it goes but i i i i do think it's a good game i do think it falls into the category every so often there's an old game where i'm like ah let's get that out for some crazy reason then we play it and we're like oh man i forgot how much

15:43 i liked this game and why i like this game i would bet that kingsberg might fall into that category because it does a lot of interesting things that many games do now at least pieces and parts of um and i think it was one of the earlier ones that did some of those things right well if we didn't just snap it out of existence i'd say people should definitely run out and try kingsberg because like it's got some great expansions like i i when i played it i every time i played it i added a new expansion and just tried all the different expansions and i enjoyed them right they added like a good amount of variety but it's gone now it's gone for good and and on a side note if anybody noticed me struggling with something as i was fidgeting i broke my sd card reader so there shan't be any new episodes of board game coffee going going out until i fix this okay someone get the man a fidget spinner yeah that's what i need i was fidgeting with it and i got a cable stuck in there and i didn't know that if you put that in there and you rip it out it rips the teeth right out of this thing so that's garbage um okay all right so let's go on to our neck i also just snapped this out of existence so ron we're sd card reader that's that's the real tragedy today okay all right one two viticulture okay uh let's see round round two uh we're going bigger we're going bigger well now it's bigger better i don't know but we are definitely going bigger

17:13 here we go okay round two gloomhaven versus don't do it don't do too many bones oh you've done it boomhaven this is too many bones yeah okay again again so so i'll go first this time all right um yeah but i'm thinking about this because again some of the same things come into my mind because i think of the fans of these games obviously to get into these games it takes a certain level of commitment um and i think that's probably what my answer will revolve around um and both games are fantastic obviously uh one of them is the number one game on bgg i mean it goes without saying uh too many bones when it comes to commitment takes a lot of commitment um if you're gonna play too many bones you can't invite three other people over and say okay everyone's seated at the table here's how you play too many bones you've almost in fact the the few times i played it back in the day we all took our respective characters home to and were assigned to learn them before we actually came back to play which you effectively have to do like it's it's it's difficult not to approach it that way i do love a lot of what too many bones is doing like i love the chips i love the play

18:45 mats i love all the like very tactile aspects of playing that game but i gotta say i would have to snap it out of existence and leave gloomhaven just out of sheer respect for what gloomhaven has ultimately done in the industry um not to mention now when you say gloomhaven we're including all things gloomhaven right like you said you'll never see frosthaven it'll never come to fulfillment if you snapped that out of existence frosthaven would be gone it's part of the gloom but more specifically this includes jaws of the lion too which i thought was a brilliant product that brought gloom in fact i i think it's a better product i i think jaws of the lion yeah i like joy better than gloomhaven um so yeah i i snap too many bones out of existence and gloomhaven gets lives to fight another day okay all right paul well gloomhaven as david said it is not just the number one game on bgg it's not my number one game of all time but it is in my top 10. i've played it 50 or so times and i you know i've been involved in frost haven and i've been involved in other things that isaac's done we're still playing gloom heaven now me and my partner vicky we're still playing we're playing through gloom paving jaws of the line together now so you know four years on or whatever we're still playing it fantastic game and the other thing that david mentioned is what it has actually done for the hobby as well um which is which is quite a lot too many bones

20:15 i don't know if either of you are aware aware but i made myself a new year's resolution this year that i am going to invest the time that you mentioned is needed to play too many bones because i dabbled with too many bones over the last couple of years and every time you do every time i do i get into it and by the end of the game i think i get it and then three months later i'm like i've forgotten everything yeah so i decided that because i have a lot of too many bones content and because i've got so many friends who say it's their number one favorite game of all time and the fan base for the game is huge i i thought to myself i'm going to have to dedicate my time so basically once a week for the whole of january sometimes twice i did a live stream of me playing and learning too many bones and i have kept that going and i'm doing it once a month and i am now at the point well i was at the point at the end of january that it clicked and i got it and i understood it and i could see why it had all of its fans and i was actually comfortable with playing the game because for me something i really don't like because it makes me feel really uncomfortable he's playing a game that i just don't get that i either i don't get the rules the rules are not sitting with me or i'm not understanding how the bits work and by the time i'd invested in playing three or four games of it with people in the live chat helping me i was like right i'm understanding this now and i was able to play it and then i was able to enjoy it and i was able to appreciate it i love both of the games but if you're going to put a gun to me ahead i'm going to have to keep gloomhaven because too many bones whilst it is a

21:45 fantastic game too many bones does have a few quirks there are a few things about it in the way that some of the things interact the the rules for me that doesn't really make sense yeah but they're the rules all right okay and he's only a few of them and i know fans of the game will will disagree but too many boats has those quirky things in there the rule book is unfortunately not great the game accessibility although gloomhaven is a heavy game and it has a big learning curve too many bones has an even bigger learning curve and as david says you can't just i mean i could get three people around and say we're going to play too many bones and i'm going to teach you how to play but it would be a learning game right it would be the whole point of the evening would be me teaching you how to play gloom uh too many bones and i would have to know all of their characters like the back of my hand so that i could then say you know you choose which skill you want and then i'll explain how it works because every character has a learning curve to it gloomhaven does as well but on gloomhaven it's here's a set of cards and here's a few modifiers and the cards are self-explanatory in too many bones it's here's a two-page sheet full of shorthand text and hieroglyphics that you you've got to play the game three times and ask loads of questions on the forums in order to be able to know how that character works but once you do it's a great experience yeah well i you know what i just assembled my too many bones trove chest

23:18 and now i don't even get to play it because now it's snapped out of existence yeah it's gone i just have an empty space where that cube was yes while we're sorry for you mark uh i think the internet and the tens of thousands of backers from frosthaven thank us yes if for no other reason i didn't want like a a rebellion on the internet with all these people who'd backed frosthaven and are waiting for it yeah well isaac could just be like well it was out of my hands it was those on vlogging coffee nothing to do with me i'll just refund the 12 million dollars that we made also i do apologize though in advance to everybody who was expecting me to do a too many bone stream next wednesday because that i'll do gloomhaven instead because it's gone oh that's a good that's a good point can you put games on this list that i have projects coming up for yeah i can like so i just so i can dodge the work oops like uh sorry uh yeah if you check out the last episode of borg and coffee it'll explain everything and you'll you'll understand you'll understand yeah just can't beat that can't be done uh oh well that was that was good you guys uh i'm happy you guys made that decision for me because actually i was because i've played gloomhaven a lot more than i have too many bones i've actually only played too many bones once and it was a video play through and you know who taught me was sam from gamelangames he taught me how to play too many phones

24:49 because he's a huge fan so he taught me remotely so we were it was me him and britney and we were playing we had my we had it set up on our table here and he had his little character there and he was just we were just rolling dice and telling each other what we got or doing whatever and we were just tracking it so it was uh it worked out well that's how i played too many bones it was covered remote all right okay well too many bones you're out of here gloomhaven congratulations that was a good match-up by the way good matchup it was it's a heavy matchup if you carry both of those in one backpack you will die that's like tyson versus hollyfielders right there yeah okay here we go next one we're going small we're going small we went big we went big now we're going small here we go we're all over the place is teacher one of them no here we go exit oh i've got this one verses oh don't say it unlock yeah i knew you were going to say that all right you'll get a special place for paul in this one paul didn't you have something to do with unlock oh yeah know um i'm the english editor for not all of the unlocked sets but certainly the last three or four boxes so what happens is space cowboys uh work on them they do the french versions then they get them translated into english then they send me the files i print them all out and me and my partner we play through them we edit the text for text for you know editing but we also test

26:21 the scenario and we feedback any issues and improvements and things like that so yeah i'm professionally involved in the in the unlocked series but that hat has been taken off i i can give you my personal opinion on both games oh well keep in mind that's future work that might be gone for paul yeah so paul do you want to go first or do you want me to go first because this i can go first on this one because this is quite easy because i've been asked this question many times before and also my partner who isn't really a gamer she plays these games with me because she loves puzzle games she loves escape room style games so we play exit games and unlock games we've played 10 exit games and we've played all of the unlocked games so we've played loads of them and we've got a lot of x-men and we've discussed it as well controversially i'm going to keep the unlocked series and that isn't because i'm professionally involved and it is because the unlocked series has evolved over the years if you were to ask me this question after unlock boxes maybe one two and three had come out exit was our favorite ones we preferred the exit series to the original unlocks however as the last few boxes of unlock have come out and i say boxes because as you see there in the uk and in europe they get released as three things in a box but i believe in america they release them as individuals um they've evolved

27:51 they are using very very clever stuff within the app and they make the the game a more involved experience and more varied than exit we found the exits we love them but after playing quite a lot of them they are a little bit samey whereas the unlock ones they've sort of you know stretched their legs and they're able to do very very cool stuff so yeah yeah i'm afraid even though we love the exit games and we play all of them the the unlock for us is a is a better series all right so exit potentially gone david is it my turn it is your turn yeah all right so i knew my answer to this befo you put exit up there and before you even put anything else up there i knew exactly what my answer was going to be and that's that's a bit of a mislead because it's unlocked i'm gonna keep unlock i'm gonna snap exit out of existence just like paul um i agree with everything uh paul just said i haven't played a ton of the exits i've played like maybe two or three of the isaac's i've played a lot of unlocks not every single one but i've probably played at least seven to ten different unlock adventures paul's right they've evolved and mostly from my perspective in the way they've utilized the app um the the video game themed one was sheer brilliance uh like i i that is probably my favorite one ever

29:24 uh i'm a big video game nerd as i'm sure we all are but that one was fantastic the other great thing and and this is everyone says this about these two things unlock i can play i can experience the whole thing and then i can pass it along which you can't necessarily do you can't necessarily do that with the exits right because they're somewhat destructible the other thing and this is more of a knock against the exit and this is just a knock against the exit experiences i've had again i haven't played a ton of them um but i remember my exit experience including their hint system i got a little frustrated with because i know at least in one of the adventures we'd played it felt a little bit more obtuse we like to think that we're smart um uh even if we're not but we were like having a trouble on a couple things you'd look at the first tent you'd look at the second hit and then the third hit the first hint was uh a joke like the first hint was like well we knew that like i wouldn't have looked for a hint if i knew you were just gonna say this is the hint um and then the second hint was maybe the best part that would point you in the right direction but it still felt kind of obvious to us and then the third is basically if i remember correctly it just tells you the answer effectively right yeah yeah yeah so i felt like their hint system was a little it was a fairly uh quick acceleration it

30:55 was like okay that doesn't help okay that doesn't help either oh that's the answer um so that kind of stuck in in our craw a little bit too so unlocks great and like i said the biggest thing about it is that you can finish it and i've passed on so many unlocks to people to play and i'll always remember having played them it's not even something i'd ever want to play again but you can hand over a perfectly good game to someone else and spread the spread board gaming it's great i will say one thing i don't like about unlock the english translations especially the later ones the earlier ones not so much but the later ones the last three in particular yes it's like those translations are an escape room like in and of themself is trying to get out of that quick question david have you played the sherlock holmes themed one from a couple of i did i did and i saw you when you say that i so badly want to say oh yeah the part where you do this and this and of course yeah for people yeah but the the not only that one but some of the other ones that really make you literally think outside the box yes um and and and go oh my god why didn't and sometimes you feel really dumb when you didn't figure it out but oh boy when you figure those things out you feel like a pure genius and that's one of the great things about some of these sorts of games is making people and i'd love i'd love to

32:27 give some examples but every example we're going to give is a spoiler to one of the solutions in there but for sure well interesting thing about this snap situation is that there's still going to be like an escape room type of game out there it's just the exit series is gone and i believe this question has come up a lot like it's a lot of people want to know like what should i get should i go exit should i go unlocked and i know a lot of people that once they go one down one stream they just kind of stay that way yeah you know like i'm just an exit person i'm just an unlocked person and in the beginning i was just an exit person so i played a lot more exits than i have unlocked and i can tell you that as far as the exits go i've never felt dumber than when i play an exit game and like me brittany loves escape rooms um i'm less of a fan of escape rooms i like puzzles i'm not a huge fan of escape rooms itself but i'll give the games a go but i play them because britney loves them and yeah we play them and i really expected her to have my back more and be better at this did you know that these are cooperative games or are you playing them competitively yeah that's you know what that's how we play real escape rooms we play them competitive oh right uh he's like no get out of my way there's elbows in the room it's just it gets nasty but yeah i love i love escape rooms too i would say this decision between us is probably the unpopular decision from what i've heard most people like exit better it's the one that has seemed higher profile

33:59 unlock i think to a lot of people feels a little bit too abstracted compared to exit let's it's less tactile um and it relies on the app a little bit more but i don't know i just i really like the system that they came up with a lot well you have me sold i want to try the video game one and since you've not done that i have not

34:31 what are you doing go play this game i didn't know yeah cause that's uh i got i bought my car when i got into the video game industry so i wanted something that was video game related so my license plate is insert coin all right okay well that is that's that is good i didn't know where this one was going honestly i was very curious to hear where you guys would go with this one another perfect match up of course okay now this one this one i i have my answer like i noticed so if there's a split decision i know what i want to be uh but i have friends of mine that would be very disappointed with me um okay here we go concordia versus castles of burgundy so just that's kind of mean that's kind of made and uh so we got a lot of burgundy boxes yep that's uh there you go yeah i'm just getting friend mark on facebook right now this is this is this is i won't say this it's not a it's i'm trying to think which one has been a real nothing's been super tough for me yet this one is also not tough and if you've if you know anything about me or any of my sort of like top 10 lists over the years you'll

36:01 probably know where i stand on this um but i can all of these matchups are clearly from a board game community standpoint significant matchups i'm i'm curious to hear what paul has to say here yeah i'm curious all right because i'm not thinking about it i don't i don't have an answer to this

36:29 but don't let what i say have any effect yes go into a soundproof chamber um this one's pretty easy for me i've played concordia i think twice in my life uh i've watched um i've watched it again recently but it was the concordia is it venus is that the other the the newest ver the version where you can play 2v 2v2 yeah which i found fascinating by the way and i have but i haven't yet played that uh but as per mark's rules that would go away too but castles of burgundy is going to stay in existence uh it is uh and concordia is going to get the snap for sure castles of burgundy is in my top ten um i know there's i've i know some people who felt that way at one point or another too and then coming back to play it more recently they're like yeah i don't know if castleberg castles of burgundy holds up for me it absolutely holds up i love i there's not ever been a game of castles of burgundy that i played where i was like yeah i don't know maybe i'm getting a little tired of this like i've played it so i've played it a lot and even then i still haven't played it with all of the different boards and all and i just recently got you know the newer edition that comes with a lot of those things so that's what i got i'm looking forward to playing some of that and i think even one of those had a uh a 2v2 scenario in it right where you

38:00 put boards together and you can kind of play side by side haven't haven't done that there's a lot of uh a lot of room to continue to play castles of burgundy it will always be something that comes off my shelf it also has an app that i really enjoy playing the app is actually quite beautiful um so yeah and and and and and and i had the pleasure once of actually meeting and eating chicken wings with stefan feld so there's no way i could snap it out of existence i also had dinner with stefan feld actually oh really i did but but did you have peanut butter and jelly chicken wings no we didn't have peanut butter and jelly i actually don't remember i'll always have that we ate i may i think i'm one of three people on the planet who will ever be able to say i ate peanut butter and jelly chicken wings with stefan phelp you're with rob weren't you yeah rob and my wife alicia and christina as well all right because i remember seeing that picture on facebook stefan feld's a great guy it's uh talking to him is uh funny because he's always so uh he seems so um concerned about his accent and his english and he's like no don't worry you're doing absolutely fine nobody might like my immediate family does not speak english so i'm used to the whole like broken english english second language he speaks a lot better than most the people in my family so he's doing great yeah yeah i mean so many designers are such all my most of my experiences meeting designers in this injury since i've been

39:32 doing this have been fantastic and he's just such a genuinely sort of sweet guy and it was fascinating to learn so much about him um and he's going to be happy to know that castles of burgundy is still going to exist unless paul says otherwise yeah yeah well yeah i mean i've met stefan fell myself he's a great guy on how to play letter jam in in germany he's also one of my favorite designers right he was one of my i've been playing stefan feld games since almost he started out yeah the year of the dragon was the first one i played i've got about 15 stephenfeld games in my collection castles of burgundy was one of my favorite games of all time it used to be my number one favorite stephen feld game uh i've played it 70 or 80 times maybe something like that now a lot of those plays were online against uh and a lot of them were two player games with somebody who was sent to jail but that's another whole story um paul you didn't say you were gonna tell anyone no no it's an absolutely fantastic game and there is no doubt component quality aside from the original game and the fact of there's three different shades of brown in it um it is a fantastic game absolutely but i'm going to keep concordia controversially despite everything that i've just said about it because gun to the head if you gave me a choice now of playing one of those two games i'd play concordia

41:02 and it's odd because i don't actually own a copy of concordia and i really should because i think concordia is a genius game i think it's brilliant i think it's elegant i think it does something different now both of these games have lots of expansions so both of these games are expandable with lots of different variations but i think the variations on um castles of burgundy mainly are just different board layouts yeah um both of the games are completely abstract with the theme pasted on right absolutely these are the absolute definition of a dry soulless euro where there is zero theme and the setting doesn't matter whatsoever you know you don't feel like you're trading goods in the mediterranean and as far as i know when when i used to own a castle in burgundy i didn't have to roll dice to decide where to put my buildings that's not how it works in real life but mechanically both games are amazing and and yeah i look i love both of them but if you gave me a choice i would play concordia over castles of burgundy oh man there you go mark man it's on your plate mark as soon as these options came up you know like it's this isn't kind of surprised to me i set these up but as soon as it came up on screen i started getting nervous like i started feeling flutters and i was like i don't know if it's a good idea i was like i don't know if it's gonna come and then whatever you guys are gonna choose i was like i don't know which one's the right it's like when you flip a coin and

42:32 you don't know what you want it to come up yeah yeah and oh whoo okay i just gotta breathe okay so here you go you guys brought up both two very good points two like both of you get brought up good points for both both these games ah but i think i am going here you go here's here's what i think the complexity the complexity of castles of burgundy like i i love all the just the things i love doing all the stuff all just the the managing of my my dice and resources and i just i like a game with a lot of parts that with a lot of moving parts i do i like that i like that now when you get to concordia it's so much simpler to teach and to play and to just jump into and i like that i like the fact that for me to remember how to play that game i just got to tell myself do what the cards do tell you to do do what the cards tell you to do and that's most of the playthrough that's most of them that's true that's a fair point it's it's so easy like that and i uh i play i i played both these games roughly around the same roughly around the same time um you know what just think of those just think of those combos and castles of burgundy all those juicy juicy combos and okay so juicy combos they are juicy they are juicy and brittany brittany's a huge fan of castles of burgundy as well uh-oh

44:04 no this is tough okay i'm gonna play i'm gonna play the britney card so here here we go here we go here we go i'm gonna say say before i give you my snap my answer that um joe pilkus he is going to be very disappointed with my answer because i'm snapping castles of burgundy out of existence and i'm going i'm keeping concordia for its accessibility it's such i can't explain to people as much when i bring up concordia when they see that box and they're like yeah i don't want to play this and then they're like or it's either you i don't want to play this oh i don't want to have time to learn a gyro and you're like no i'll teach you this super quick and just sit down play it just sit down you have any questions you ask me as i go but i'll teach you this in like you know five ten minutes it will sit down have a little chat you'll play it and you'll love it everybody everybody loves it it's like the end the barrier to entry is just so it's just like it's just what you just walk right in you just walk right into this thing and it's so easy to get into and play and the i think the depth of um of concordia compared to the the teach is just it's not something you get in a lot of games yeah the ratio is not something you get in a lot of games usually you want a lot of depth you got a lot you got a huge teach but it's so simple and what you get out of it is just so much so that's why i'm keeping concordia i think uh although they're both great games and i really this is one

45:35 i would have really liked you guys to make the decision for me and i would have been disappointed either way and the reason i brought up joe was because joe taught me how to play castles burgundy right and he or he was like i love this i love this game he just kept telling me he loved it as he played it he's enough isn't it fabulous and now it's out and now it's gone it is it's gone you know i will say something uh that paul mentioned about these being incredibly dry euros uh before i got into the hobby at all i mean there was a time in my life where i remember i'd go to the game store i'd look at games and i really just wasn't in the hobby but i'd look at either one of these boxes these two boxes maybe represent to a t like what mark what your friends say you show them this box and they're like oh no no no no no no no no they're not they're not what you'd call like uh great hooks the the visually in terms of getting people in and i i'll say this even more for castles burgundy when you open that box up and you start putting stuff on the table it doesn't get any better uh generally uh but man i do love those combos i'm gonna miss those combos very much you know what else i'm gonna uh be frustrated with is i have to go back and now do work and adjust my top ten of all time because there's a vacancy that's right i just make it a top nine of all time there you go that's true maybe i'll just slide concordia in there

47:05 well it's like concordia's not in there no i mean i like concordia but it's it's it's not uh it's yeah it's just not in my top ten i don't remember if you're like my top ten either it's definitely my topic i feel like there's other games that use uh similar mechanisms that i enjoy as well casuals of burgundy is so unique there's there's a short list of games that i feel um i've always felt pulse oil and this is a something that connected me and paul once upon a time pulsar 2849 i've always felt i've regarded that as almost like a castles of burgundy 2.0 in that you're getting two dice you're using those two dice that's simple right well no there's a billion things you can do with those dice and that's that's the the similarity between those two games um and i just love how simple that is but like you said the teach on it is okay so here's all the things you can do with those dice yeah here's all these buildings that you have to remember what they do um and the same thing goes with pulsar it's like they're you know you do it you're like okay i've got my two dice and then the you know you sit there and you kind of go okay what a mm-hmm and it it can take some time for some for some new players anyway so yeah and while standing on concordia as you say is fairly simple you literally choose a card play the card do what it says on the card yeah you're absolutely right with the depth because you can play the game by just playing a card and going right it tells me i can move a piece i'll put it here

48:36 and then after you're halfway through your first game you go all right now i see where i should have moved and where what i should have bought and why i should have done this and then it starts to come i mean concordia you're right in terms of the the card play mechanism has now been done again in other games but i think the genius in concordia uh and another i never forget this it's a friend of mine in the uk who absolutely hates concordia um not only because it's a dry soulless euro but because of the way that the cards are actions but they are also your scoring cards now i think that is an absolute genius but it will catch you out if the first time you play the game if the person teaching you just says yeah we'll pick up pick up some cards and everything else and then you get to the end of the game and you're like okay so this one scored me none uh this one scored me none he's like no no when you're picking up a card you're picking up a guy you've got to look at that scoring card you've got to look at that because that's your points at the end of the game and it's the it's where they've tied together those two things is just genius yeah there's genius that's exactly what i was i was gonna say is just that scoring system i love that scrolling system it's so good and that's what really if uh if anything if any ap ever happens it starts toward the end of the game where you're like okay what can i do they're gonna i need to get more wheat uh in these cities i need to you gotta look evaluate your cards and like i gotta change i gotta change gears i gotta like i gotta do right by my cards so they

50:07 will do right by me help me help you so okay all right and uh again i like to remind everybody that this this is a gun to our head situation yeah i love both these games i i hate to see anything go but it has to happen it has to happen burgundy's gone castle's a burgundy gone yeah which is a shame because i just bought the new uh collector's edition and i was like well that's i didn't get i didn't even get to open it yet i played the original digital i don't even have to open it it's gone all right that's unfortunate okay was that round four are we ready for round last one this is the last one oh it's the last one i thought we were doing 100 rounds okay now this is the last round and uh and i'm going to tell you that i really want you guys to pick this one for me okay paul we know what to do now no no no no no no paul you take the one on the left i'll take the one on the right three winks means i should have said anything okay now as far as uh what these things these two games have in common i think you could just put them by sheer popularity which is one you know one of the one of the ways i put these things together here we go here we go there's been a good match up so far and just so you know it has been both of these both of these games my boxes are worn right down like i don't have any games that are the boxes are worn this much

51:39 from play it's yahtzee and clue isn't it clue and monopoly um okay here we go yeah versus pandemic okay i mean i think i think and remember paul oh you've got your answer right all the pandemics go i i think i have my answer and that cause that's like 100 games you're getting rid of right there with one yeah so um but at the same time i haven't gotten my big box yet my terraforming mars big box and i'd like to get that before it disappears well you might not you open this can of worms sir this is it's on you you did this is on you all right okay so whose turn is it now is it i think he's miss paul i think it's paul so i recently did a top 10 video earlier this year um and because i always get quite nervous about doing my own top 10 videos because i work full time in the industry what i do is i get my patreon supporters to vote so i come up with the category and my patreon supporters vote and then i basically do their top ten and i add some extra comments myself the recent one that i did and it was earlier this year i can't remember exactly what it was but terraforming mars was on that list and i think it was probably the top 10 games of all time top 10 best games of all time according to my patron sports and terraforming mars was on there and i

53:09 was not very complimentary about it and then afterwards two weeks later i didn't regret some of the things that i said but i i looked back on some of the things i said and i went yeah that was too harsh the game is better than i gave it credit for in that video and i was turned off a little bit from terraforming mars because of the sheer hype the sheer popularity is just overwhelming and i was just a bit i don't know i was a bit fed up by it and it kind of put me off the game a little bit and then when i went back and i played it again and i was like yeah i said those things i shouldn't have said those things because the game is brilliant and i and i played it and i was like i played it two or three times i played the digital version which is an extremely good adaptation of the board game not against the ai the ai is terrible but against other people playing the digital version of the game is the same as playing the physical board game and i was like this is brilliant this game is really good and suddenly those couple of years where everybody i knew was playing nothing other than terraforming mars and i was like oh why are you always playing terraforming mars right i suddenly went now i see why they're always playing terra formulas it's just yeah so i gained much more of an appreciation for terraforming mars in the last couple of months and i'm actually doing a playthrough of it this weekend pandemic well if you want a game that's

54:40 done a lot for the hobby pandemic has done a lot for the hobby whereas terraforming mars has been a massively popular game with gamers pandemic i think has been one of the catalysts for why the hobby is has grown to uh to reach out to to non-gamers you know there are a few games which have done that over the years and pandemic is one of those games uh it kind of put cooperative games on the map as well um and and you know the popularity of the co-operative nature of pandemic i think has been partly responsible for the growth in popularity of cooperative games in general i've played both games i've played pandemic legacy i mean we yeah if we even touch on on legacy we've got pandemic legacy which has been it's it's a whole new catalyst for for spawning legacy games i can't make this decision i really really can't if you if you force me to play one of those games right now it would be terrifying mars no question absolutely no question i think terraforming mars is a better game i do believe pandemic has a bit of an alpha gamer problem and i know the argument that it's not the game's problem it's the player's problem i i get that but i've also played cooperative games that have addressed the alpha gamer problem um so there's no question that pandemic is

56:11 a very good game it is there's no doubt what pandemic has done for the gaming industry in the gaming hobby but if if i had both of those games and had to keep one of them it it would be terraforming miles i didn't know where that was going i didn't know where that was going i wasn't either because he started painting such a good picture of what pandemic had done for the the hobby um it is hard to not respect that uh because it is it is not insignificant uh what pandemic has done and what and what it continues to do i mean pandemic is one of those amazing franchises that rides both sides of the fence today because pandemic legacy is an absolute staple in a lot of enthusiast gamers households whereas vanilla pandemic is still selling by the truckloads at target and you know in mass market so it is an amazing thing that it does but i'm gonna have to agree with paul here and keep terraforming mars and i'll tell you why and one one reason is because i'm missing all the combos from castles of burgundy uh i love i love engine building there's this building so so there's a there's a handful of mechanisms in board gaming where i'm like if i hear of a game that has one of them i'm like okay tell me more and then a couple more and a couple more uh engine building is one of those

57:42 and and i want to talk about the digital app too in a second but playing those cards out in front of you when i play terraforming mars i am i i rarely win and it's because i'm so focused on just playing my cards and having fun with what i'm doing with my cards that i completely ignore that there's a board that i'm supposed to be doing things on um you know and now obviously i'm raising some of the stats the temperature and the oxygen and whatnot but i'm not really doing much of the area control stuff or i haven't traditionally i bring that up because the app uh amazingly forces you if you're a player like that because when i like i said when i'm playing i'm sitting there staring at my cards the entire time if i'm not looking at the cards on the table i'm looking at my cards in my hand and i'm not really thinking as much about connecting those and what i'm doing with the board in the app you you're looking at the board the entire time and in fact you have to actively push buttons in order to see your cards so they kind of like force you to look at the game in a different way which completely opened my mind to how i really should play terraforming mars also terraforming mars has a special place in my heart when we first uh started or very early on anyway did terraforming mars come out in 17 or 16 16. so i think it was the first gen con uh when they were announcing terraforming mars uh stronghold was printing it actually

59:14 somewhat locally in lafayette indiana and as a joke i went with a fake box and stood in front of the printing facility to take a picture and this was right after we started man versus meeple and we photoshopped the artwork from terraforming mars on the front of it and saying we got a copy you know in front of the the printing facility and i remember steven bonacore was like wait what and i know that he he's told me since then that there were other uh content creators at the time who were calling him saying what are they doing with terraforming mars we haven't gotten our copy yet uh so it was really it was a really fun story and the game is just great like uh everyone i play with uh alicia plays it with me um hardcore enthusiasts play this there's so much game that this offers and even a lot of the expansions i got to say i just played it a couple weeks ago uh with four people and we played with we didn't play with turmoil but we played with prelude which you pretty much have to play with in my opinion uh it's the way to play um and we played with colonies which is a great expansion as well um and there's just so much that it offers and it's i don't know how better to put it than it to me anyway terraforming mars is the best example of what i'd call the quintessential modern classic like

1:00:46 this game has it came onto the scene five or so years ago and it is an absolute staple uh and there's a lot of other games that have kind of gotten into that realm too in the last five years but this one like er you know it's just a pillar of the industry from day one till until right now so yeah it's to be terrible it's interesting for me what what you said about you don't win you just you just you just play your cards and you have fun yeah it's just so cool to get this card and go oh look i built a space mirror what does a space mirror do oh it increases my any you know if you're talking about thematic integration you could look at that space mirror and say okay so it costs 22 it moves this marker up three and it moves this marker down one and it does this right you can you can purely look at the numbers but terraforming ma and there are other games that i've got where you've got a card like you know the standard euro game about building a castle in medieval europe you play a card it costs 12 what does it do it adds three of these and it adds one of those there's no thematic connection whatsoever in terraforming mars every single card in the game when you look at that card you go yep that's what that card would do everything is and even though it is just numbers and icons it fits and you have so much fun and this is one of the great things about terraforming mars you play the game and at the end of the game okay somebody's won but look at what you've done you've got

1:02:17 a load of cows right and you've dropped an asteroid on dave and you blew a piece of these plants and and you did all of this stuff and it's enjoyable to play and you add up the score at the end and you're like yeah whatever it don't matter i've done my stuff yeah and that's and then that's a great point and not so much as a comparison between these two games but it is one of my absolute favorite things and in fact i'd almost so go so far as to say it's a great example of what i consider great game design is if at the end of the game you've lost horribly but you enjoyed every step along the way uh it's it's a great game in my book now you have to be the kind of person who's more about the journey than the destination uh when you look at a game that way but that's that's how i look at games i i i when i win i love it i don't usually win and it doesn't bother me but i really enjoy games that do a lot while you play there's other games where it's really more about the end result it's more about the destination in the way it's designed and i don't enjoy those games as much but terraforming mars yeah just i did this and i tipped this card and it gave me this and then i can do this yeah i love that sort of experience i mean terraforming mars has the advantage in that it is a competitive game the cards are balanced each of the cards are balanced in themselves obviously you will get certain cards that are better for you at certain times whereas pandemic is difficult because pandemic is a cooperative game you win or you lose

1:03:47 so so getting the difficulty level right in that game is tricky and i think one of the issues that i have with pandemic as a as a game and one of the reasons why i generally wouldn't choose to play it is you can win or lose that game before the game has even started the randomness of the cards in the deck can be in your favor or against your favor and you know you shuffle the deck and you put it there at the start of the game you don't know it but you could have already lost that game um just because of the way certain things come out now i remember playing one of the best experiences i had is i got invited to one of the live shows that they did at the uk games expo about three years ago and every year they do a live pandemic game where they get three zed list celebrities on stage and basically we we we play pandemic uh and it was me it was josh howie uh uh comedian in the uk and it was z from dice tower sorry z you're not a deadliest celebrity me and josh are um and basically what happens is we each take in turns and they got the camera set up and of course at the start of the game there's a full crowd of audience they they all decide which difficulty level we're going to play on so they all shout hard right it's a it's an entertainment show there's jokes along the way it's a bit of fun there's a bit of audience participation it's not about winning because you're never going to win because you're playing on hard and it's just a fun show for an hour and we won

1:05:18 and i'm like everybody else is jumping up and down and i'm sat there going what how have we won and of course the audience were jumping and cheering and everything else now we won not because we all played really really well we won because we were massively lucky with the way the cards were stacked in the deck now i'm not saying our choices didn't have some bearing on that but what i'm saying is if we played that game again on hard difficulty we might be dead in 15 minutes and that we have limited control on how that game will actually pan out i i just felt that the the skill level versus the randomness of the way the deck was seeded was a bit too high for me and in cooperative games i want more control over whether i win or lose but i know it's it's hard from a game design point of view because if you make it too deterministic you end up with players solving the game and therefore it's not replayable so i know it's a it's a very hard thing to do yeah it's the between these two games i mean you got that spectrum of something being a very hardcore strategic game and something being uh more experiential something that i mean any any co-op game falls into this category if we were judging this based on outbursts at the table and people like screaming in either you know for winning or losing you know pandemic takes it uh it's a very different sort of thing and that is a very different experience uh had you put pandemic up against

1:06:49 something some other call game like death may die that that that would have been for me at least the way i look at games uh a more challenging comparison but but this is good these are man these are big matchups that you gave us today man yeah happy i'm happy that you chose terraforming mars uh or chose anything because i didn't want to choose because i played these games to death and as far and you guys brought the thing is you guys you're listening to you guys talk about terraforming mars kind of soften the blow right because i was like as soon as i david as soon as you made your decision i was like well that's that's two it's two against pandemic pandemic's gone i was like i'm a little sad but then you guys talked about it i felt like i was being consoled at like a funeral you know when like you guys were there you had your hands on my shoulders it's okay it's okay life goes on because it's a great challenging you know like uh mechanic building engine building game card game it's good that's what you that's what you have that's what you you're left behind with and i felt good about it i felt good about it and maybe sorry go ahead maybe paul and i were also just a little subconsciously bitter towards current events and that's why we got rid of pandemic yeah you've just solved coving yeah that was the problem all along i mean i just i have to say on pandemic pandemic has because we're getting rid of every pandemic game yeah everything pandemic i've played pandemic legacy season one i've not played i mean there's been what four five six different pandemic games there's a lot iberia and cthulhu

1:08:22 and yeah i think i think you've had i think four or five or six have come out since we started recording i think so yeah i know not played any of those it's like the new one i don't know whether that would uh that would change my mind but well they're all gone now yeah they're all gone doesn't matter that's right they're all gone and um also there is like uh i do have a very personal connection with terraforming mars and but you brought up one good point which uh i forgot about in terraforming mars people play and they lose but they are not they might be sore about it but they want to play again they enjoyed their game britney loses all the time and she wants to play all the time she she's like let's play again let's play we played it until like five six in the morning like we've just kept going and we even have to this extent this is how uh a bigger point this game is played in our lives this is our wedding photo this is what i was digging out after oh i yeah i've seen that photo posted i think on facebook at one point or another i dug it up on my computer well while you guys were talking and that is a good photo she was surprised i uh snuck it in our luggage when i when we went to our destination wedding and then while she was getting her dress on i stayed in our room and i was setting up the game so i was like okay now that we're doing wedding photos let's go up to the room just take one there she's like but why it's beautiful out here let's just stay out here so we went upstairs and she's like oh my god this is amazing and then they played okay yeah then we played we're like okay just tell just it's an open bar they'll take care

1:09:53 of themselves everything will be fine so i've got something to tell you too which you've probably never heard of okay there is a uk convention that i go to twice a year it's called handicon it's not running at the moment but it will be it will be soon there is a group of die-hard terraforming mars fans and every time this convention runs on the sunday they play a game called terraforming mars's they get three boards out put them alongside each other and play terraforming mars's no rules changes literally terraforming mars with all of the stuff but with three simultaneous boards holy crap it takes a long time ever yeah takes them all day they say it's fantastic they absolutely love it and yet if you talk about engine building you're doing it on three planets at the same time um so it's just then yes same amount of cards same same everything same same everything no rules changes just you are terraforming three different planets at the same time and it takes them all day and they am intrigued that seems like something like that could be house ruled to death and make just crazy i love it yeah by the way is also speaking of terrifying mars did you guys see that april fool's joke the other day with the the the fake product that was like terraforming the moon and it was it had kind of an alien slant to it i have to say it's really well done i i kind of want that game for sure like i love the idea of of

1:11:24 trying to do things like terraforming mars or whatever but at the same time having this menacing threat uh that's looming i i i dig it i want it to happen all right let's let's make that terraforming mars legacy that'll be the president still and as far as pandemic and taking on challenges and the randomness of the cards i just wanted to bring up i didn't want to cut you off but the yeah obviously it is random because you're shuffling cards putting them together but i found uh at one point when i was at the peak of playing pandemic with the expansions we got up to seven epidemics uh because i think you get up to seven epidemics in the deck with all the expansions and we we won about with seven about 50 maybe a little more percent of the time like we did fairly well and when we got down to like four or five we'd won before we we unless it's a bad pull four or five we win like all the time so we have to play in the six seven epidemic range and we got really good at like okay we know that's that came out so that's back in the deck so we know that has a possibility to come out so let's go prep and we're putting out fires before they happen and that's how we play we like strap everything and everybody at the table talks so we don't have the alpha gamer thing because we always try to present it uh as like okay here's my suggestion what do you guys think do you guys have any ideas we're all brainstorming every time every turn is like a end of the civilization brainstorm how do we fix this situation and we've played again we

1:12:54 played that game like all night until the sun came back up it'd be great anyways but it's gone now it's gone hold on to those memories and it's a it's a shame i never got to play pandemic legacy that is a shame i will yeah oh well well thank you thank you guys very much for coming on this is a lot of fun to do um you know it's it's sad for five games and um remember you can po if if you're upset with some of the decisions you could put the blame on the shoulders of these two what what yeah well that's you know i don't make the rules i just follow them yeah um yeah if you want to send me any uh emails to complain about the choices that i've made my email address is mark.meyer so just send them through to there and yeah i'll deal with them that was fascinating because that is also my email through email anyone who has complaints any bill collectors anyone in fact can uh communicate to that email exclusively mark.maya.gmail or there you go okay okay well thank you thank you very much and thank you uh everybody watching for joining us on this episode of this versus that i love having these guys on the show this was great i hope we can we can do this more i love this this whole like just bringing this mishmash of like people to media people

1:14:26 together and talk because thing is being in this industry of the the board game media it's just full of good people they're all just on separate channels that's why when you get to origins and you get to those events and everybody gets together it's just a good time because it's full of good people and these uh these two men are great examples of that great people in the board game media and you guys do great work thank you very much for coming on thank you guys for joining us on the show and oh and plea you know if you haven't already subscribe to gaming rules and man versus meeple but if you're watching this you for sure are already i'm this small fry in this big greasy pot of deep of hot oil

1:15:12 i'm all crispy okay all right see you guys see everybody bye bye bye now how much time do we have do we do we literally just give an opinion yeah you can talk as well as long as you want you can discuss it do not tell paul that he can talk as long as he wants i gotta clear some room on my hard drive hold on we'll choose one game to remain and the other will be obliterated from existence never to be played again um and that's all you know everything i i know it's not in the real world right i i don't know the power of this show i don't know i don't know you might have brought the three of us together and that's never been done before we have no idea what might happen you don't know this is like the infinity stones that's why it is it's it's that it's it's a thanos event we we are the infinity gauntlet for the three-fingered man hey by the way what what font is this that our names are in the thick one is that phosphate something or other i think so yeah from uh from dice throne is it from daiso yeah yeah yeah i'm pretty sure i i've been using the crap out of it lately yeah i've it's it's in our logo i've been using it ever since oh really yeah i found it it's probably quite similar i think what they sent me to do the video was like they something they created maybe i don't know but it's similar i like that type of

1:16:43 thought i've always liked impact but impact has a lot of problems yeah so yeah that's that's right i think you you got it it's because it only works in capitals if you have here if you don't have your capsules it's all like dots i'm a big capital letters fan it's just that question mark and impact sucks so badly yeah yeah anyway i digress are we talking about fonts today today we're talking about 10 phones today top 10 fonts we're getting ready oh we have to have a font off that'd be awesome yeah oh no that'll just they'll they'll just bring in the viewers they'll just be rolling we should definitely have a top 10 fonts and we should see how many comments we get on the video that say uh i think you'll find it's typeface not font thanks for joining us if you like this video and you want to see more subscribe to our channel it's the best way to keep up to date with everything we do here at boy game coffee but if you want to see more right now we got plenty of videos to choose from and if that's not enough follow us on instagram facebook and twitter i'm mark maya and this is board game coffee and remember have fun keep gaming be social see you next week