Wroth, Wreck & A Little Dice Throne | Manny Trembley | BGSS ep_027

0:00 We both got laid off literally 10 years ago this week. Nate was the one who like, "Hey, what if we just translate this sucker into a board game?" And I I've been told so many times that, "Hey, what you're doing is cool, but it's not going to work." As Josh Wilg said, Chip Theory said, it's like rainbow unicorn vomit. You know, that's what he ended up calling Roth. Like there was a joke way way way back at the beginning that Roth stood for we we really own the hill, right? Most people in this hobby grind for a decade looking for success. My guest today did it opposite. He got laid off from his job along with his buddy Nate and they decided to create Dice Throne. Yeah, after the creation of Dice Throne, it took them only a few months to actually get it to Kickstarter and make $181,000 and then $500,000 on the next one and then over a million on the third. Now, Dice Throne is an absolute empire with over 40 different heroes.

1:00 Today, he has a Dice Tower award on his shelf. His company's been acquired by Chip Theory Games, and he's running a studio building something I think fixes one of the core issues I have with Root. He does the art. He does a design. He does everything. This is Manny Trembley.

1:23 How are you doing?

1:23 Cool. Doing great.

1:25 Did you go to Gen Con?

1:27 I did. I got back last night.

1:29 Oh, so you are fresh. How was it?

1:33 It was great. I Gen Con is is a beast of a show. It is a quite an intense ordeal to go there and to do have booths and run events and stuff like that. But for the [clears throat] two different primary companies I interact with, Dice Throne and uh Chip Theory, both were very was very positive. So

1:57 yeah, that's great. I mean, it helps that you make awesome stuff and people uh love it and and all of that. I went I went to Gen Con for the very first time this year. I I so I I went in I walked took me like an hour and a half to literally like make sort of a loop and I walked back out to that that secondary play area or a demo area and I called my wife and I said I think I might have seen everything I need to see. It was just because it was just so and you know for people that have been there you you know what I'm talking about. You just shuffle along like you are a cattle and it's just really hard. Luckily, you know, I learned, you know, I I don't need to be the first person in the door and, you know, maybe even go in an hour later or maybe even never go on Thursday again if uh if I don't have to. It helps things a lot.

2:44 Thursday's weird. And I think it's because there's that FOMO element of it. People are there. They're like, "Oh, no. I got to be the first one to get

2:52 this or whatever it is." And I actually find well as an exhibitor I spend like an hour before the show opens and I just wander up and down assorted hallways

3:04 right

3:05 until and I'm

3:07 looking used to do it.

3:09 Yeah. I I spend well I think things have changed over the years with each of the companies I work with. [clears throat] So years ago, it used to be I was more involved in the booth, like really running the booth.

3:21 Mhm.

3:22 But now we have other people running the booth and then I help. And so I had time where I would say, "All right, well, I got a meeting at 2:00. I would take off at one and I would just meander my way through one of the wings or one of the hallways or whatever it was and just kind of if if you're not in a hurry, you can just kind of shuffle along and check out booths and see what visuals catch your eye or listening for people's excitement levels at different games and stuff like that. Yeah, that's kind of what I ended up doing was like there I I realized that you really can't have a sense of urgency otherwise you're probably not going to have a great time and not you're not going to see everything in one pass, you know, that's why you you're there for multiple days.

4:10 Did you see anything that really uh stuck out to you from uh anyone else out there? Any other games that that looked interesting? Yeah, I tend to buy like I so I bring a medium-sized suitcase and a small suitcase and I stick the small suitcase inside the medium one when I check it. [snorts] And so when I go

4:31 So then when I get there, I buy too much stuff and I have two suitcases to bring home plus my backpack and I always buy like my my primary goal is to walk around the smaller companies.

4:45 Mhm. the, you know, where Dice Throne was at one point,

4:51 right? And so my goal is to find something that's like visually stimulating that,

4:57 um, I'm often looking for people like my wife really really enjoys I'll just generically say aesque.

5:04 Hey, that's my wife, too.

5:06 Exactly. I I think there's a there's a this is stereotyping, but I think there's a strong parallel for um I've met a lot of women who really love Azul and Sagrada. And

5:19 does your wife like puzzles like actual jigsaw puzzles? Yeah, my wife does as well. So that I think that's why like any sort of tile lane she is in. Like we're Cascadia. I played Cascadia Alpine Lakes for the first time, which is great for me because it stimulates kind of like the crunchy part of my brain, but it also gives her her like, you know, creating her puzzle or her her tableau. So, I'm always looking for those those games that cross both boundaries that aren't just Well, I'm not going to say just a uh but are a little a little heavier or a little crunchier than a Zul.

5:49 Sure. Yeah. So, there there's that. Um my boys love combative games. They love to battle and duel and they like to play.

5:59 They like Radlands. Yeah, Radlands is a great example. They really do enjoy Roth. Like I could see about over your shoulder. They really like Roth.

6:09 Um Yeah, there you go.

6:10 Yeah,

6:10 they [snorts] they love that combative asymmetrical fighting. And so that's my that's my genre. Like I love combative aggressive games. And so if I can find those, like there was one I found it was called Dino Sitters.

6:28 Dinositters.

6:29 Yes. And it is a cute little game where you are babysitting dinosaurs while the parents go out on a date and you have from 5 to 10:00 when the parents come home and you're trying to create the most amicable or enjoyable setting for the kids, the kid dinosaurs. and you're making little patterns and you're getting points based on the harmony of what you are creating. And I didn't play it. I got a pitch. It looked pretty. I bought a a game from the same company last year at Gen Con the same way where I walked and I saw I just looked up.

7:12 Yep. Yep. And so those were I I like that. And I mean the truth is I don't know if the game's any good. I have no idea because we haven't played it,

7:23 right?

7:23 Um [snorts] I just I don't know. Um but then I often look for smaller games. Um like if I can find 20 to $25 products, I'll buy a bunch of those and bring them home. Um and then as a kind of a roundabout way of saying like on a standard Wednesday evening, my wife and I go to Barnes & Noble and we play a single game or two. And so we'll bring it, we'll learn it, we'll play it, and if it doesn't resonate, we're like, "Cool, that was fun." And then we give it away,

7:57 right?

7:58 And so if it does, then maybe we hold on to it for a little while longer. But it's just kind of an a fun experiment and like and we're not going to watch a movie. We're going to hang out for two hours and we're going to buy a game, play it, learn it, probably play it wrong, and then and then figure out what to do from there.

8:19 It's interesting. Can you go to Barnes & Noble to play rather than stay home? Is it like kind of like a little date night? You know,

8:24 it is. It is. We take our boys out to like a teen event or something like that on Wednesdays. So, they go do their thing and then we there's a Barnes & Noble nearby. So, we hang out, we get a coffee, and often we'll like occasionally I'll just shop at Barnes & Noble where I'm looking at their shelves and we find something and like, "Hey, let's try that one tonight." They've got like I keep saying this like their buyers are doing it right. I think they have uh a pretty decent selection at least in mine. I keep finding kind of fun stuff. We go all the time. I'm It's funny you're saying all of this. There's all these parallels. There's one right next to my house and my wife and I do go just to like, you know, go kill some time. And um I haven't found anything really recently, but I've actually bought a ton of games from Barnes & Noble at this point

9:10 and they they're on it. So,

9:13 I'm looking like right right here next to my desk is a copy of King Domino, which I'd never played, and I bought that at Barnes & Noble. [snorts]

9:21 So, that was the first time I'd ever played it.

9:24 Um, and there's a bunch sitting around my room here. Canvas Critters is another one. Haven't played it. Still in shrink wrap, but

9:31 I just got pitched that at Gen Con.

9:35 So, yeah, it's I I think the exploration and experimentation of different games is kind of exciting. Um, I am very much just a hardcore fighting gamer. Like I want to fight people.

9:50 Um, and so it's always interesting like my my boys said, "Dad, you need to have a YouTube channel where you review every game from the perspective of a fighter." So every like you review it from how good is this game on a scale of one to we get to punch each other. Right. Like like it invokes the feelings that I actually want to punch my opponent as opposed to within the game.

10:16 Well, maybe, but also like I'm going to fight you in the game.

10:20 I've only ever punched one person in my life

10:23 and it was in third grade.

10:24 It had nothing to do with a board game.

10:27 Had nothing to do with a board game. He was following me around on recess.

10:30 Yeah.

10:30 And I was really annoyed and so I punched him in the stomach and I felt so bad. We went to we played together the rest of recess. So, that's the one time I punched a person,

10:39 right? Um, you said something interesting about like when you walk around Gen Con, you're kind of looking for the smaller publishers and I I agree. I I think a lot of the interesting some of the most interesting things that I come across are from indie publishers. And I started to notice that I went to Origins for the first time this year as well and I saw something called the sheep as an example where you are it's a it's a co-op game that you're trying to get through a pasture full of sheep that mutate at night and you have asymmetric powers um with your um shepherds and it was just so odd and weird. It would never exist with a big publisher. you know, Asthma Day likely would never uh publish a game like that, but I' i've noticed with kind of the the smaller publishers, it's a lot of people bringing their really specific dreams to life. A lot of times designing themselves, you know, you know all about that. You do your art, your design, absolutely everything. Um and and I I think that that is uh really cool and unique. And another thought that I had had in in going to the Dice Tower Awards, which congratulations, you're part of the the uh 20 strong uh team that that won. What is it? Best solo game. And I think was it specifically for Tangle Woods? So, I mean, yeah, that's like that's your your design, right?

12:00 Well, yes and no. It was my it was a seed I planted. So, uh Tangle Woods is fun because that was all right. If you go back to when they launched Solar Sentinels in 20 Strong. Yeah.

12:13 Um, I knew Adam Carlson very well, one of the owners of Chip Theory.

12:18 Mhm.

12:18 And they launched their campaign and I texted him and I'm like, "Hey man, what gives? You made a cool solo game. How come I didn't get to make any art for it?" I was joking.

12:27 Yeah.

12:28 But he says, "Why don't you come over to the office and then you can play it and then maybe you can make something?" I'm like, "Fine." And so I went over and I played Solar Sentinels and he taught me. This was on Friday, a [snorts] Friday and of during the campaign. and I said, "Can I borrow this deck and take it home over the weekend and I will bring a I will bring a full deck to you on Monday of a brand new game?" And so I took Solar Sentinels, I went home and I did art and I made Tangle Woods the game using the 20 system.

13:01 No, no, no. I drew like the picture of Red.

13:04 Yeah.

13:04 No, I did like the piece of red art that you see in the game is the art I made that weekend.

13:09 Oh, is it really? Oh, that's cool. And the same for gold and white and snow white. So Goldilocks and Snow White. So I drew all three of those pieces that weekend. And

13:18 so you signed yourself up for three decks that weekend.

13:22 Well, I didn't realize I was signing up for three decks. I did not know that.

13:25 Okay.

13:26 But and I didn't even know that they would take the game. Um but I saw uh I saw the truth is I didn't build a playable game. I built a prototype and a sample idea that had the slay the spireesque travel and but I didn't understand their rules well enough to actually make a true 20 strong game cuz I was breaking their rules left and right and it didn't work at all.

13:52 Were you at least using just the components that they give you because that that's really the rules, right?

13:57 Yes. Yes. But there were guidelines that I mean they built a really really tight system, right? And there's a reason it's so popular. But when I showed up on Monday, we played it and they were like, "Huh, can we use this promo art you made and why don't we just tell people we're making we're going to make a fairy taleesque thing?"

14:17 Yeah. Because they had the promo card early, right, with the

14:21 They did during the campaign, right? that so during the campaign that was cuz I spent a weekend making some art and then they made

14:28 funny that was literally decided right then and there like during the campaign.

14:32 Yes.

14:33 Okay.

14:34 And so then they they gave the and I'm going to call it a seed. I planted a seed of Tangle Woods.

14:41 And so you know is that a designer? Eh, you know, they already designed the system. I was inspired by their system and I I I gave an idea. Um, and then Logan, who I don't he doesn't work at Chip Theory anymore, but Logan took the the seed and I think he was the primary guy who built out the Tangle Woods

15:01 [snorts]

15:02 um the first deck for sure, Red. And I I I think he worked on the other ones, but I know they brought more of their other guys in to work on other stuff, but that was that was the beginning of my relationship of working with Chip Theory. Um, and while I was there, I was like, "Hey, I got this area control game I made on a Saturday with my kids. Can I pitch that one to you?" And that was Roth. And so I brought that in later and they were like, "That's cool. How about we make that?" And so that was literally the beginning. All because Adam was all like, "Whoa, why don't you quit whining and come on in and I'll show you Solar Sentinels."

15:38 All right. So folks, when you're if you're watching and you need to go find some work, just do it at least part of it and submit it and you might it might turn into your company being acquired by Chip Theory Games. You never know.

15:50 Yeah. I I mean the whole thing is very serendipitous and like

15:54 Right. And we're going to we're going to jump deeper into that. you did mention you're you're kind of uh with 20 Strong and and the the Tangle Wood system, you know, you're saying, "Oh, I just did the art and they did a lot of the the um the uh the development or or even the design." But the art is a huge part of a game. And I think it sells games a lot, but doesn't often get as much credit for the overall game experience. Um, so, so I I commend you considerably even, you know, for whatever, you know, uh,

16:28 um, involvement you had with that with that system, but you were an artist to start off, right? You actually, uh, you had nothing to do with with board games and it was comics early on if we're going to take it all the way back, which sure feels like,

16:45 you know,

16:46 decades. If you want to go on the way back machine, comic books is my first love. And from the age of 15, I was I saw a Jim Lee comic. I want to say it was X Uncanny X-Men 275 or it was in the 270s. And I open this comic and the first two-page spread is Storm in across the two pages and she's dodging lasers in space. And I was like, "This is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I'm going to make comic books." And so I started collecting comic books at 15 and I was convinced I would work for Marvel or DC doing comic book art. And uh I never did. But

17:31 well,

17:32 I mean technically I guess you could say the like dice Marvel dice thrown and X-Men dice thrown are me working for Marvel. But

17:40 Right. I mean you did you've once again forced your way

17:45 into it by one way or another.

17:47 Right. It's funny cuz I like 15year-old Manny would look and be like you're drawing for Marvel. Right.

17:52 Yeah. But it was like that was it was just fun that I did get to draw Marvel heroes the way I would like to draw them, which was really fun because if I go way back, I would travel to Chicago Comic-Con. Uh Detroit had Motor City Comic-Con and I would try to find I would get in line and wait to submit my portfolio to Marvel and DC and they would always be like, "Your work is a little bit too cartoony." They'd be like, "You need needs to be more serious." And I'm like, "I don't know what to do with that. I mean, I'm just drawing.

18:23 Did you try to to make it more because you do have a very distinct for the most part? I mean, you've you've diverged a bit, which we'll talk about in other games, but it's a pretty distinct art style. Did you ever try to make it more serious or sinister?

18:35 I I did. My work back when I was a teenager was really really heavy black and white. Um,

18:42 I have the I I get to I get to say that when I was younger, I was like, I will never use computers to make art. Computers are the devil. I will only make real art on real paper.

18:55 And then in 1999, I went to school for 3D animation and I started using computers and now it's been 26 years and I've never looked back. So

19:03 So you only you only uh actually draw what you have like um what are those pads?

19:09 Yeah, I use a Yeah. So the monitor right in front of me is a Waycom drawing monitor.

19:15 And I also use my iPad Pro for to draw on using Procreate.

19:20 So it's a combination of my iPad with uh Procreate on my iPad and then Clip Studio on this drawing monitor.

19:29 How many hours a day are you actually drawing?

19:32 Uh it it's a it's a roller coaster. Some days I don't draw at all because I'm doing design work or meetings.

19:40 You know, Dice Throne is a is a large well large company. There's 10 employees. So for Dice Throne, it ranges from hero design, sometimes development, helping out with art, doing new design work, going to conventions, having meetings, etc. So, I probably don't. I probably spend maybe a couple hours a day drawing right now.

20:07 Do you draw for fun anymore?

20:10 Um, yeah, I do. I do. I My favorite thing is to go to McDonald's and get a really large Diet Coke and sit on my iPad and just draw whatever I want. Like, that's how the Roth art style started is I just went and

20:22 I was like, what kind of art style can I do that's not Dice Throne, not Tangle Woods? I just want it to be crazy. I want it to be like, as Josh Wilgus at Chip Theory said, it's like rainbow unicorn vomit. You know, that's what he ended up calling Roth.

20:38 Well, that's just the color, but overall, like if you're just actually talking about the lines, it is it is more serious. It is more more

20:46 I don't know how I would describe it other than less cartoony, more serious artwork.

20:51 Yep. Absolutely. you know, right over my oop, wrong side like like I have these little metal prints, right? And so those I think the art is more serious and if I had made the game the game could have been super serious, right?

21:07 But I think the game actually kind of has a fun and whimsy to it and like a dynamicness, but then the art coupled with it makes it even more

21:17 festive almost festive battle. I like the juxtaposition of the serious art and the color, right? Like is that is that a is that a a%

21:27 intentional?

21:28 Oh, yeah.

21:30 Yep.

21:31 And so you were actually early on you worked on PX, which is Panda Express. Is this a

21:37 very Yes, you did your research. PX. It was a web comic.

21:41 A web comic. And you were nominated for an Eisner.

21:44 Yes. So, my friend Eric Anderson and I created PX or at the time was called Panda Express with no E cuz we didn't want to get sued.

21:53 Did Okay. I was going to say, did the uh the fast food chain uh Chinese food actually exist at that point?

21:59 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

22:01 And so, we would we would joke that, you know, we dropped the E because we didn't want to get sued. Uh but when um Shadowline and Image picked it up as a all ages graphic novel, they were like, "Okay, legally you don't have a leg to stand on. It's called brand delution.

22:18 You need to change the title." So that's why we changed it to just being called PX.

22:22 So you couldn't mention it's Panda Express anywhere in

22:27 not in the books. People Well, the web comic was still called Panda Express,

22:32 you know, and it was up for many years. It's down now, of course, but it was up for many years. And the website was panda express.com with no e.

22:41 So, you know, when you're just two knuckleheads making a comic book,

22:46 you know, a fast food chain doesn't care. But Image Comics makes sure to protect their, you know, their brand and they don't want, you know, lawyers coming after them for brand delution or copyright infringement. So, [snorts]

23:00 and then you started working commercially. You did you work on Mist? my very first uh computer game I've ever played.

23:07 No, I wish I I wish I could say I worked on

23:10 studio. Oh, you just the studio?

23:12 Yes, I worked for Cyan Worlds.

23:15 Okay. Well, I was going to say that looks like nothing like your art. I was like looking at it. No, not at all. Um, so when I I was hired there uh as a 3D artist in 2004 and so my first jobs were making just 3D models for Mist Five End of Ages. So I did that and then at the time Cyan was looking for opportunities to branch out, make other products. And so my friend Eric, Eric and I and others started brainstorming like kooky weird new games that Cyan could publish and try to find. And so we we would create little demos and pitch tape pitch reels and stuff like that. And none of those got picked up. So there was just I think we brainstormed half a dozen cool games.

24:05 Um but at the time um I this is my assessment of it. No one told me this but Cyan was kind of like grandpa who fought in World War II. Everyone respects him but no one wants to hang out with him

24:18 too. So yeah, but it's but Rand Miller who was one of the brothers who created Cyan Worlds um was an amazing he is an amazing man and was an incredible owner of a company and so giving so amazing how he treated his employees and but unfortunately the video game world I think kind of moved on. It moved on from that [snorts] and so and they have continued to fight really hard to maintain their puzzle games. Abduction um when that one came out uh and then they've had two I forget the name of the other one recently and that well within the last 5 years. Um but anyways so that's that that was kind of a a stint there and then I I moved into just doing commercial graphic design uh for kids plates, cups and bowls with licensed material. So, if you walk into Target and you see a three-piece set bull cup tumbler and it has Little Mermaid on it, that was the job I was doing. And I did that for eight years.

25:24 Being a creative, is that difficult going and doing kind of corporate work that you have less kind of creative license to actually affect?

25:35 Yes, it is. And I would be cautious to say that it's not artwork. It's just not the artwork I would want to do.

25:43 Right. Sure. I, you know, I'm more of an illustrator and less of a graphic designer, even though I do graphic design. Um, there was a lot of really, really good graphic designers and illustrators who worked at Zach Designs. That was the company I was at.

25:57 Mhm.

25:57 Um, but I just didn't want to do that forever. So, then I got out of that and went to a place called 72 to start making app games for like Teenage Mut Ninja Turtles, Nickelodeon, Disney.

26:09 Sweet. Um, and that's where Nate Shadelier and I

26:12 No Marvel together.

26:14 There was no Marvel in that one. No.

26:17 So, your dream wouldn't wouldn't be fulfilled for many years.

26:20 No. No. But, uh, Nate and I had we met in 2004, 2005ish. Um, and then we were friends and we ended up working. He helped me get a job at 72. And then while we were there working, we both got laid off literally 10 years ago this week. So 10 years ago.

26:41 Congratulations.

26:42 Yeah, you're Yeah, it's amazing celebration.

26:45 But we were laid off from the same company. Uh they kind of did, you know,

26:49 a third of the company got laid off at the same time kind of a thing. Mhm.

26:53 Um, and that was we had been working on a video game together that Nate was had been pioneering and then we kind of just fell into dice throne. Like we were like, why don't let's make a board game.

27:09 More than that, he just fell into dice thrown.

27:12 It was quite literally we should just make a board game. Neither of us had made a board game.

27:18 Okay. Did you play board games at this time? Um, other than risk and like Scrabble, no, but I did

27:27 an awful uh uh career move.

27:30 I did I I was a very I was a very active War Machine player. So, if you know War Machine, the top skirmish game.

27:37 Yeah.

27:38 So, I was an active War Machine player. Nate was much more uh board gamey. He enjoyed

27:45 board games to a higher degree than I did or played or experienced, but he was a heavy magic player.

27:51 Was Nate an illustrator as well?

27:53 No, he's a programmer by trade.

27:54 Got it.

27:55 So, um, he kind of So, Nate built the Dice Throne initial system, like the the primary game mechanics were him.

28:05 Did he do it digitally?

28:07 No, he did it on [clears throat] Okay. [snorts] Um, but the the dice the video game that pre that we built was basically dice thrown except for like an adventure game.

28:19 Okay.

28:20 And that thing it just wasn't going to go anywhere. We had gotten some advice from someone in the industry and [gasps] we did probably it I mean in hindsight it doesn't even make sense how it went from hey we're making video games to I don't know why don't we make a board game and then Nate built the first playable system and like two days later I think middle of August he invited me over and we played it in his kitchen and we're like this is cool this is like everything we wanted in a board game and we're like we think we have something. And that was August of 2016. And then we ran the Kickstarter for that in January of 17. So we went from August to January, from I don't know, let's make a board game to launching a campaign and starting Dice Throne.

29:09 That is so nuts.

29:10 It is. It's It's bananas.

29:12 It It's almost not fair for people that that bust their ass for years. I mean like I was just I was just talking to um Pablo, the guy that did Old King's Crown and they they were which is another really gifted artist um as well and a brilliant game as Yeah. as as well as a designer as well. It's incredible. But they've spent years and years and we were talking about how like people are are so surprised that it's just like this um you know all of a sudden they just kind of like it seems it seems like it's an overnight success but for them they'd been working so long. You on the other hand just

29:54 kind of knocked it out of the park immediately.

29:58 Yeah. Yeah. It was quite literally the the the perfect like often people will talk about how you know overnight success is often the result of being in the right place at the right time in motion

30:11 because you have to be in motion to catch right place right time momentum and we were in motion because we had just spent a year developing the video game system for Dice Throne and or sorry it was called Dice Forge at the time

30:27 and Again, Nate built and programmed the system and then I was doing art and graphic design, world building, and I was play testing with him, but that Dice Forge was that was his brainchild. And then when that video game kind of got kicked in the teeth by industry people, Nate was the one who like, hey, what if we just translate this sucker into a board game? And so there was a lot of leg work done that didn't actually seem like we were doing it,

31:00 but when you started making the actual playable version, all of a sudden you realize the last year has been a precursor to this moment.

31:09 And then absolutely at that time Kickstarter was growing. It was, you know, Roxley was kicking it with Santorini and they had they launched their brass first brass campaign not too long after that or right around

31:23 you saw there was potential there. It wasn't like an an unknown space,

31:28 right? In 2012, I launched my first Kickstarter for comic books. I was

31:32 So you'd already been on the platform. All right. So now now this is starting to make a little more sense. I'm trying to find those through lines that gave you the confidence to actually go do this.

31:40 Yeah. And part of the confidence was just naive and ignorance. I mean, just quite literally, we didn't know.

31:47 And we we started seeking advice about Dice Throne. And people would say, "Well, you can't do that because this is how the industry works." And we were like, "I don't know. Why can't we do it? Why don't we just do it our way?"

31:57 Like what? Like what were they skeptical about that?

31:59 People would say, "Your your heroes are too asymmetrical.

32:02 They have too many components.

32:05 You they you only need one set of dice. You don't need that. Each hero shouldn't have their own set of dice. There should be a common deck that you draw from not each hero gets their own deck. They you know you can't you can't make an ammerit game like you need euros are popular worker placements are popular ammerit will be panned by other audiences outside us and I think it helped that we were kind of ignorant and kind of naive

32:34 like did you just feel like you knew something that that they didn't because that those what you named were all the things that people love about Dice Throne you know

32:42 exactly exactly 10 years later so I I I think part of it, part of the beauty of Dice Throne is that Nate and I made a game for us

32:52 and it just happened to be that other people also enjoy it. And so that was very we were very fortunate in that we made our game and I I was willing to just say, "Hey, if we make it and it fails, I made a game that I love and I get to play."

33:08 Right? But there was a very we had a vision for what Dice Throne was and what it would become. And even like distributors would talk to us and they would say, "Okay, this is a cool game. Good job. What's your next game?" And our answer was more dice thrown.

33:30 So you always thought season two,

33:33 maybe not adventures. Uh you think Yeah, co-op was planned. Honestly, so we Nate Nate documented a five-year plan and then a 10-year plan. Nate is an intensely meticulous and organized man far beyond me.

33:52 A compliment to to get this off the ground, right?

33:55 He is. Yeah. I mean, like literally the two of us needed each other for Dice Throne to exist because I am an artouse goofball who just wants to draw and create fun things.

34:07 Yeah. And I at the time especially I did not understand mechanics to the level that he did. And so there was like distributors, they'd be like, "Okay, yeah, congratulations. You like your game, but what's the next game?" Cuz games go up, they die, and you need to make your next one. And we're like, "No, no, you don't understand. We're making more dice thrown." Like, "Okay, good luck." And so we just kept making more dice thrown. Kept making more dice thrown. And that's when we partnered with Roxley. So that's when Gavin Brown came in early on. And so we met Gavin and we knew Nate specifically was like, "Hey, we need a partner that understands how to make games."

34:52 Was Roxley the second campaign which was adventures and then season one?

34:57 No. No. Season two actually.

34:59 Really? So you all had that second campaign by yourselves? That was huge, right? You went from like 181,000 first campaign to over a million some million something.

35:08 No, no, no. Uh, season 2 launched first and that was like 780.

35:12 Okay.

35:13 780 or 680 Canadian or something cuz Roxley ran that campaign.

35:17 Oh, got it. So, the second campaign was Roxley. I just had it mixed up. Okay.

35:21 Yes. Then we did season one rerolled with adventures. So, that's when season one rerolled is when it kind of took off, I think. How much of that increase from the initial 181,000 which I'm sure felt like insanely successful

35:37 how how much

35:39 of the increase was due to Roxley's presence and professionalism and or was it just really

35:45 it was massive Roxley what Gavin Brown does is he elevates products to a level that don't seem reasonable like if you I I assume you're aware of Excalibur

35:59 I just going to say Excel. Yeah, I have the insanely stupid um

36:03 amazing box that makes no sense whatsoever.

36:05 The absolutely stupid production that I paid too much for but is amazing and I would buy it 10 out of 10 times again.

36:13 Yes, I got that one.

36:14 So that that represents to me what Gavin is, who he is. He he has vision. He has vision and he can he's a brilliant game designer, developer and he's a brilliant product designer and uh creator and he gets the right people around him to elevate the game. Like one of the guys who works at Roxley is named James Vanderk and that box looks as good as it does because of James. And who would have thought thought thought of that box where you have the lid that opens up and you got the magnetic like the actual at least in the super deluxe version the metal swords right there like

36:56 it's crazy design.

36:58 Gavin took Dice Throne and in ways that I couldn't see. I couldn't see what he was doing. I didn't have the vision to understand how he would elevate the product. But he quite literally blasted Dice Throne into the future and it was I I think our game might have gone the hey we sold copies and it did well and then it started to fall off but I think Gavin's presence his ability to see clearly into the future and have a vision for what the product could be. I think that's really what elevated it took us it took us on that that rocket ship. He also brought just like a ton of experience at that point as well, right? Where you could get through so many barriers that you probably were facing from the first campaign.

37:44 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

37:46 So, would you say to, you know, we were talking about these indie publishers that are trying to do everything themselves, I mean, part of that might be just they didn't get signed and they're they still want to bring their thing to life. Would you say it's well worth whatever they might lose in creative control to find a Gavin Brown or is just Gavin Brown so incredible that um you got lucky?

38:09 I think we got very lucky in the finding the relationship and building the you know now nearly 9-year friendship we've had with Gavin,

38:17 right? Um, but I think finding the right people, understanding your limitations and then finding the people to fill those limitations and those holes, I think is an important part that not every artist creator understands. Um, and that can be a publisher, right? you can bring your game to Gen Con and meet with, you know, Plaid Hat or, you know, Renegade or whoever it is and pitch your game and maybe that's what it takes for your game to go out there and be successful. Um, but if you want control over your game and you want to be the one to self-publish, it's a hard it's a hard path, right?

39:00 Like the there's a game right now that has been they've been plowing the field hard. It's called Good Knock. It's this twoplayer kind of card war game where you're moving and placing your cards on this grid.

39:15 And they have been working hard to sell and promote and build their community and build their brand. And they were at Gen Con. I think they had very good response. But I met them first at PAX East a few years ago and they had just a little popup banner on a table in the free play area where you weren't supposed to demo games but they were like we're going to demo our game until someone kicks us out.

39:40 Okay. Yeah.

39:40 And I I saw him sitting there. Yeah. I saw him sitting there and I walked over and I'm like, "Wait, what's this?"

39:46 And we talked and talked and talked and I gave them advice. And the best part about one of my favorite things about them was I gave them advice and my dice thrown booth is right behind me and it's got massive banners and it's constantly full and

40:01 the success of Dice Throne, right?

40:04 And I'm giving this their some thoughts and feelings and they're like that's really awesome. We're not we're not going to do that.

40:11 Did they know who you were at that you're like this is my booth by Okay.

40:14 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

40:15 They had Well, that's a perfect example. They really want control o over their product.

40:21 It's it's their game. And sink or swim, they get to say in the end they made their game their way. And I think, you know, maybe if they did it more traditional or businessy, would it be more or less successful? I don't know. I I I've been told so many times that, hey, what you're doing is cool, but it's not going to work. And and the truth is is I self-published 10 books for over like a 10-year period almost. And I think I made like $500. Yeah. Graphic novels.

40:52 Oh, very cool.

40:54 And you made 500 bucks.

40:55 I've made maybe $500. Like I mean I've made nothing. So each one of those I made because I had a story I wanted to tell and I told it and then I printed it and I did a crowdfunding campaign to help pay for the you know manufacturing and printing and stuff and and I had visions of grandeur. I hoped that it would be successful and that I would,

41:14 you know, my company was called Fish Tank Books and I wanted that to be a brand and I would just make comic books the rest of my life and it for all intents and purposes it failed. But what it did was it gave me the artistic chops to do what I do now.

41:32 What do you mean? You weren't talented naturally before. Like what was the

41:36 I think I think what it did is it sped me up. It helped me draw faster, which was good

41:41 cuz you had self-imposed deadlines to get all this stuff.

41:44 I had self-imposed deadlines, but I also was working a full-time job. So if I wanted to make my book, I had to draw it. Like I I would drive into work early, draw at my desk, draw over lunch sometimes, and then go home, hang out with family until 10 o'clock, and the kids would go to bed. And then I would draw till like 1 or 2 in the morning. And then I would get up at 6:00 and then I would do it all over again.

42:07 What year did that So I understand your timeline.

42:10 2012 to

42:13 2016. So a few years this was truly getting you ready for Dice Throne.

42:17 It really was. And often the art style I would use was contingent on the fact that I only had like I I would I would view it as I have an hour. What can I do in an hour? I need to be able to draw a piece of art in an hour fully finished, ready to go for print.

42:35 Mhm.

42:35 And [snorts] so I kept I would either distill the art down and simplify it. Um, that's honestly why Dice Throne looks the way it does is because I didn't have time to to spend a lot of energy on dice thrown art. So, I'd be like, "Okay, I got to draw."

42:52 Do you feel like if you had more time, it would be more detailed or have a different style?

42:56 You know, I think there's Yeah, I think there's truth that if I had more time, I probably would have spent more time on each piece.

43:02 So, I don't know. I don't know how familiar you I don't know like what your dice thrown knowledge is, but when you look at a hero board and you see that center piece of art, that piece takes roughly an hour to make.

43:17 And so, Yep. So, I mean, so yeah, there you go. So, that piece of Iceman art takes roughly an hour. And

43:33 I mean that's amazing.

43:37 So, but it was born out of a need of I only have an hour. So, what can I do in an hour to finish a piece of art? So, it sounds and I would hate for this to come across wrong cuz I love the dice art and so when I joke that it's unfinished almost

43:55 because if I had two hours would it have been better? Well, no. It wouldn't have been better cuz

44:01 it would have been more detail or something or or would you have done a different style altogether?

44:05 I don't even

44:06 I look at this I'm an untrained eye. I just see cool stuff and I'm like, "Oh, it's great art."

44:11 I I don't know what you would do differently there if you spent more time on it. It all looks really cool. And I think part of it like the end result is actually almost the the byproduct the quality of the art which I think is very good is a byproduct of I don't have enough time and I need to get a product made

44:33 but what ended up doing is I created a style. I ended up creating a look and a and a a the dice thrown style. And so it would be wrong of me to to try to tell people, "Oh, it's not good or it's uh I wish I could have done it better." But it it's a part of my history. It's a part of who I am now. And so

44:55 do you look back on some of it and go like, "Oh, I wish I would have taken more time."

44:59 Of course. I think every I don't think there's any artist that doesn't look back over their work

45:04 because season one is what, a decade old at this point,

45:07 basically. Yeah, it's it's nine to 10 years old, right?

45:11 Right. uh in a couple weeks from now, 10 years ago, was the first playable version of the Barbarian and Moon elf.

45:20 So, it's it's funny because I think as an artist, you always want to push yourself to make better art and do things, but I think sometimes knowing when to stop is also a really important thing, like when is the art finished? Um, and I think it's really really difficult to know that. And so sometimes deadlines help. They help you to know when to stop. I think you know perfection is the what do they call it? Perfection is the enemy of done

45:48 or something. I think that maybe that's the term. I don't know something like that,

45:51 right?

45:52 But I think it was like George Lucas got a lot of flack when he went back and touched Star Wars. He was like, I have money. I have time. I want to fix Star Wars. I want to fix scenes that didn't look good enough. And what was the the response was? Hm, that's weird. Why would he do that?

46:09 Right? like don't don't touch Star Wars. That's our Star Wars, right? Yeah.

46:13 But he's a creative. He's a he's a man with a vision. And when he had the ability to go back and touch it, he was all like, well, why wouldn't why wouldn't I fix it,

46:22 you know?

46:23 And it didn't need to be fixed.

46:25 I'm looking up at the I have the the box that has pale lady, headless horsemen.

46:30 Um that does look at least from the side of the box. I can't go grab it now. More detailed. Is it more detailed than say X-Men was or season 1? Yes, I think it is more detailed. Uh, a fun thing there

46:43 style as well.

46:45 Yeah, I think it's a little bit more rendered, but the the technique used is still the same to illustrate it.

46:53 Um, also my good friend Nick Mara, he has he joined the Dice Rone team,

46:59 and so he is an artist and graphic designer for us now full-time, but he helped all the way back on season two. He was an artist on the cursed pirate, on tactician, on the artificer and other things. And then he would do pencil sketches and I would it would help me to finish art. And so the headless horsemen you see there, that's his illustration. I did not draw that.

47:22 No offense. That's great.

47:23 Yeah.

47:24 Yep. So, but I did draw the pale lady piece and the werewolf and ravenous and the necromancer, the the central piece of art. You did the other three and he did the

47:35 other. Yeah.

47:37 Well, that's good. They're giving you some help.

47:39 Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. Like Nick is a incredible illustrator.

47:45 Is it hard for somebody to come in and I mean, you sort of did it with your corporate work. Take a a style that somebody else invented and execute to it.

47:55 Yeah, I think it can be difficult. Um, Nick happens to be probably one of the best artists I know at doing that,

48:04 but also he comes from a place of kind of comic book art. He loves he loves pulp comics from like the 50s and 60s.

48:13 Okay. And so, you know, his personal work is really inkheavy and, you know, halftonone patterns and, you know, it feels like a like a noir novel almost from

48:28 years ago. But he has I want more Nick Mara in the Done Art, but Da art kind of existed before he came in. So, he's been really good at matching or not matching, but illustrating in a way that doesn't create discord between his work and my work. And on top of that, he had like the Vanguard stuff that we did, the most recent Vanguard set.

48:56 Mhm.

48:56 He did the art for the druid and the sun elf, and I did the key art for the forgemaster and the duelist. And by key art, I mean that centerpiece. So, and then he also did the abilities and he handled all the art for the druid and the the sun elf. And Nick has a little bit more detail in his work. So, if you were to set him up and look at it, you would realize, hm, there's more detail here. There's more intricacies in the line art.

49:26 Mhm.

49:27 And it's just cuz that's how he kind of works. he wants to push a little harder and make more more visual stimulation or art.

49:38 Is the do you see a difference pretty starkly when you line all those characters up? Cuz the untrained eye I don't necessarily see uh you know see a stark difference there.

49:48 I don't think most people would identify it.

49:52 Yeah. I think what would happen is my my boys, bless their heart, they're like, "Dad, I can see the difference between the two."

50:01 Which one do they like better?

50:03 Well, they like mine better, of course.

50:07 But it's I mean, that is purely subjective, right?

50:11 And I can appreciate that my boys go to bat for me. That's I I like that. But I love Nick's work. I think

50:17 So, which one did you said? So, Alchemist, Barbarian, Druid, and Duelist. Which ones did he do? And I'll put these up on the screen for people in post.

50:25 So the So the the sun elf and the druid, he did all of the art,

50:31 the abilities, the key art in the middle, the leaflet cards.

50:35 Well, the druid is very intricate.

50:38 Yeah, there's a lot of detail.

50:40 There's a lot going on

50:40 and it works. And it works really well. It's a very beautiful piece and it's a very wellexecuted uh visual style. Um, and the sun elf has a really nice uh detail.

50:54 Yeah, there's the sun off. Yeah. Okay. I do see it. I do see it.

50:58 And if you like he has noted like Yeah, it's it's really cool. He's kind of noted that when he looks when he studies my art to help me make it, he's like, "Manny, you do less lines." He's like, "I can see that you're drawing less in this area." or

51:16 there's a you're removing information and letting color or shadow or stuff like that speak for it. Um, and so and again I don't what I don't want is a studio where I need Nick to be mini me. Like that's I don't I don't want him to be me.

51:33 And if I can help it over the years to come, I'm hoping that Nick is still with us, you know, hanging out making art. And if he is, I want to keep pushing and allowing him that freedom to create art within the Dice Throne universe that feels more unique, more him.

51:50 So, you would see it continue to evolve. And if you were to like line all of the work up over time, see a slight

51:57 I think it's I think it's okay. I think it's okay if that happens. Um, I think there one could argue that the dice throne art style should be sacred, but I think it should be sacred in that I I often compare dice dice throne and games to Mexican food, right? So, if you order if you order a if you order a burrito and I order three street tacos,

52:23 we have basically the same thing, right? Mine's a corn tortilla, yours is a flour flour tortilla. You you you put chorizo in yours and I have, you know, carneada and I have cilantro and onions and I put pico on it, but you put your pico and your rice inside your burrito. Right. In the end, you're like, I like burritos.

52:47 And I'm like, get your burri burrito away from me. I don't want tacos. Right. So, I think there's room for someone to take the ingredients of Dice Throne like Nick is doing and then start to craft his own unique recipes and his own unique styles. And it's still going to be Mexican food. Like, we're not making pasta. We're making burritos and Mexican food. And so, I think it's important that a person like him doesn't pop in and be like, "I'm making an ice cream cone, man." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I asked you to make a burrito." Right. Right.

53:21 You can't get your ice cream out of the room. Is that's not what we don't make ice cream. We make the tacos, man.

53:27 Right.

53:27 So,

53:28 are are his burritos are influencing your tacos at all as you move on?

53:34 100% 100% they do. And I think one of the things I love about it is that I look at what he creates and he has he has a visual language that he prefers when he starts to create. But he's super respectful to the brand and to I mean I've known him for 15 years and we've made comics and we've sat at little comic cons and he's selling his Inspector Von Ghoul comic and I have my, you know, Victoria Jr. comic and we're selling 10 of them over the weekend and we make no money and we spend any money we make

54:12 we have a blast and you know you dream about the day when we could be professional comic artists someday

54:18 but we would go eat at I don't where are you located are where in the country are you

54:24 Seattle okay so Carl's Jr. do you know what that is yeah that restaurant okay in the Midwest it's called Hardies

54:30 Mhm. Okay. Same restaurant, same food, but we would go to we called it Carl Son of Carl because Carl's Junior's, you know, we're like, we would go and we would eat their not Big Mac sandwich. And we would just talk about how someday we're going to have an art studio and we're going to make comics and art and we get to just create, make our own stuff. And both of us are not businessmen. We were never going to actually build a business,

54:59 but we would just commiserate and talk about how someday we're not going to make children's dinner wear. We're going to make comic books,

55:06 and apparently we were not specific enough cuz now we're making comic book art in board games.

55:11 Now, would you trade your career as it is now for what you thought it was going to be or had hoped it had been then?

55:18 No, not even close. I the the one part I miss and this is pretty substantial but the part I miss is that narrative storytelling is not a huge part of board games. It's not really a place. There are narrative board games and there are

55:36 storydriven content, but the story driven content tends to be almost more cinematic like uh

55:45 betrayal house in the haunted hill or whatever it's called, betrayal, whatever. But you enter that and it's like four people enter the building and now we must fight off the bad guys and stop the cult from doing whatever. and that's the story. But when when you if you try to in board games tell a personal or emotive story, it tends to fall flat with gamers. Um there there are a couple that exist. And there might even be more that I'm just not aware of. But

56:19 yeah,

56:20 most what I my experience is most board gamers don't want you telling them a story. They want to experience the story, the the game. They want to write their own narrative. And I think like recently we've kind of re not rebranded but we've kind of emphasized the brand of become your hero within Dice Throne. And that becoming your hero creates stories. And I think it's I used to be the person telling you a story but now you as a player get to craft stories. And if after you've played a game you are looking for someone to talk to to be like okay here's what happened. It was 10 to 9 and I did this thing and my barbarian wound up and I got ready and I had saved the right cards and then blah blah and then he rolled up from basic and then he failed his evasive and I won the game blah, you know, right? That's a story

57:09 100%.

57:09 You will you'll remember that story because it's yours and you crafted it.

57:14 And the barbarian now holds a soft spot in someone's heart because the barbarian pulled off I and the barbarian pulled off this amazing narrative adventure in a moment and now I can share that with other people and I'm going to want to replay the game because I want to recreate another narrative with another person. And so again, maybe I should have been more specific with my wishes and dreams, right?

57:38 But I'm helping people tell stories in their games,

57:43 but I am not necessarily the one curating your experience.

57:48 You essentially said exactly what Cole Worley said when I u interviewed him about kind of like what he's trying to accomplish. And it really is that emergent storytelling that comes from like he doesn't feel like he's designing a game per se. He's giving a player the tools to then go and kind of create their own experience and basically write those stories. And I think those are in in some cases are significantly more powerful than somebody telling a story to you or you reading a story or watching a story that came out of somebody else's mind. It's so much more exciting. Um when you were using your dice thrown example, it it reminded me of um uh a lot of people will say that or not a lot of people, people will say like dice games are too luck based. Now um I I I analyze a bunch of games on a on a um an app I built called Cardboard and Dice Throne actually is low luck because I give a ton of credit to um uh to mitigation because there's tons of mitigation in Dice Throne, which is which makes it makes it fun. But some of the best stories told in games come from those lucky roles that happen, you know, and it's never I'm talking to Chip Theory about um the most recent 20 Strong as I I interviewed a few of the the designers there, you know, they don't want you to win or lose because of one lucky role. It has a lot to do with with kind of what what you have done leading up to that. Um do you think the dice play leads to better stories in Dice Throne? Yeah, for sure. I think

59:20 that's the if you if if we wanted the game to be like a TCG where it's all your supposed skill of building your deck, which I find kind of hilarious cuz TCGs are still really really luck based.

59:35 Oh, yeah.

59:35 Did I deck?

59:38 Did I top deck the right card? Did I

59:40 did I mulligan properly in order to get the right cards to start? And I remember playing Magic with people and they would get their cards and be like, "Oh, well, I lost."

59:50 Yeah. And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" "Well, I didn't get the cards I needed right away, so I'm not going to be able to win this." And then they would just take their cards and they were done. Justin Garry, he's the youngest Magic Champion of all time, told the story where he you can mulligan on your on your first hand and um his hand wasn't that bad, but he knew what he needed based upon the deck he was going against and he threw it all out the window mulligan and hit exactly what he needed at that time. His championship was a lucky mulligan, but it was agency because he decided to mulligan.

1:00:22 Right.

1:00:22 Correct. So, I think one of the things and uh when I talk about game design with the guys at Chip Theory or development or whoever or even with our fans, Dice Throne asks the question, what do you do with what you have, not what do you do with what you want to have? And I think that's a difference between a game like TCGs or uh purely open information games um like Roth. Roth is a good example. like it's a full all information's on the table.

1:00:54 Um there are moments of like oo what's going to happen? We're not sure and then they do their feet and then it's like boom the game changes. Um but there is the randomization in Roth comes from the dice that get rolled and now here is the menu. Now you must answer the question, what are you going to do with what is before you? instead of uh I wish I had the attack die this turn cuz if I did then I would be able to do my successful thing. And so I prefer that question. It feels a little bit like a desert island kind of thing

1:01:28 like like what are you going to do when you crash on a deserted island cuz you're not you can't plan for it. You're not going to carry a survival bag around with you in case you arrive on a deserted island.

1:01:39 Some might but typically no.

1:01:41 Yeah. typically don't. And whether [snorts] you're on a boat or an airplane, if you crash on a deserted island, you probably did not bring the tools necessary. So now, what do you do with what you have? And I think that I mean, that's probably an overexaggerated narrative, but this point still stands

1:01:56 that in game design, I prefer the question, what do you do with what you have? And that's why dice thrown, there are no mulligans. You don't get the mulligan in your hand because you have been given your tools. Now, how do you And I think that's partly why people play it so much. Um, I've played probably more than 20,000 games of Dice Throne. And I would play

1:02:20 You like the game still?

1:02:22 I love it.

1:02:22 I know. I play right now, too.

1:02:25 I absolutely love it. And it it is if a game designer can do it, I believe they should make a game for them first instead of a game for an audience. Now, that doesn't mean everyone has that luxury, and some game designers are tasked with, "Hey, we need a party game."

1:02:44 Um, right now, party games are hot. Let's make a cool party game. Let's make sure it's in the $10 to $20 range. And there are brilliant designers who are able to hit those things. They're able to make games that resonate with people with parameters set up. But I think some of the best games are created when a designer or an artist or team or whatever they make the game they want to experience and make and it creates a more genuine product. It it it's almost like the product seems more pure I guess

1:03:19 but I again I would hate for that to be misconstrued as people who do commercial design are somehow lesser because that's not true. like flip

1:03:28 first though like the very first thing

1:03:30 I think I think if if a designer can help it designing from a place of personal joy and excitement on a product that would be the ultimate way that that's the game I want to play from someone when I walk up to the table and I meet a designer I hope that what I experience is their personal expression of what a game should be and not well I heard TCGs are popular so I guess I should make one

1:03:54 small box trickt taking whatever ever the buzz word is at any given moment.

1:03:59 Yes. Yes. And there's tons of good trick taking games and whatever they might be super hot and popular right now. I love trick taking games. So, I'm going to I'm going to take a risk on a lot of them,

1:04:09 but every once in a while you find ones that are super fun and super neat and and

1:04:16 sometimes looks really cool. By the way, I haven't played it yet. Crits and tricks.

1:04:22 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where you have dice the dice that you assign to cards.

1:04:25 Yep. Those those will be the rank and there's loot that you can collect and all kinds of fun stuff.

1:04:30 Yeah, I did not play that, but it looked really cool.

1:04:32 Yeah, I bought it. I'm trying to get my son to play with me now cuz my wife's out of town. Yeah.

1:04:38 Um, okay. So, let's fast forward. We talked a little bit about Chip theory. Tell me like how did that relationship evolve? we already know it kind of sort of randomly came together through um some some sheer uh for lack of a better term maybe dumb luck. I don't know.

1:04:56 Yeah.

1:04:57 But like

1:04:57 I mean I was friends with Adam so you know Adam and I would go watch movies and hang out together and um we our families got together hung out with their kids and and I knew that he was a board game maker. You know, we were kind of matched by a mutual friend that was like, "Hey, you live in Minnesota now." Because I was in Spokane for 15 years.

1:05:19 Yeah. I I actually looked that up this morning to make sure you weren't in the fires. I was like, "Oh, no. He's in Minnesota now." Yeah.

1:05:25 No, but one our one of our uh guys on Dice Throne, his house on his block, 10 houses were burned down.

1:05:34 Yeah.

1:05:34 And then the smoke here in Seattle is crazy today from

1:05:37 Yeah. Yeah. And a handful of the houses on his block were not burned down. And one of his is one of the ones that did not get burned down.

1:05:44 Oh, it did. It didn't get burned down.

1:05:45 It did not. It did not. So, and one I mean, yay. I'm excited for my friend and happy that he didn't lose his house, but

1:05:52 I don't know what that would be like to drive down a street, your own street, and all of your neighbor friends

1:05:58 are gone.

1:05:59 Right.

1:06:00 Right. Anyways, but that's I forgot where I was going with that. Uh Spokane. So, we lived in Spokane for many years. We moved back to Minnesota in 2019 to uh set up to have my wife's parents live with us and so which they do now and they have for 5 years. So they moved in um were helping to take care of them. And then uh when I moved here, someone was like, "Hey, the guys from there's a board game company and you should meet Adam. You make board games. He makes board games. Check it out. Be buddies." and we met each other and had a great time and we became good friends. Um, and that was how I got to know like I would go have lunch with them and I would walk into the Chip Theory office at the time and Josh Carlson would be there and Josh would be like, "Hey, hey." We'd say hi to each other and

1:06:51 and

1:06:52 but then what at that moment, what did they produce? Was it what? Cloudspire or Too Many Bones?

1:06:58 I think so. I think it was I think they were three deep at the time. Okay. Um, I think so. I'd have to go back. We're looking at 2019, 2020. Probably 2020ish.

1:07:10 Too many. Yeah, it's definitely Too Many Bones.

1:07:12 Well, Too many Bones was their big boy. That's the thing that launched their company.

1:07:16 Yeah.

1:07:16 Um, so yeah, that that was kind of how it got started was first just a a friendship with Adam. Um, I have become very good friends with Josh Carlson and Josh Wilggas. I mean, their their company is pretty incredible. They have amazing designers, developers, artists. It's it's really cool to watch.

1:07:37 I mean, that's that's why I'm talking to you now with Chip Theory. They got me so excited about Too Many Bones and I ended up, you know, having now I have a Trove Chest and and absolutely everything in it. And I've spent way too much money.

1:07:48 I have a I have a trove chest right down here next to me.

1:07:51 Yeah. And I was before I I didn't I didn't love co-op and the idea of playing in my own head solo and like making up you know from I came from a video game background so like you know I would never have to run the AI or anything like that. It just felt weird and with too many bones it just clicked and absolutely fell in love. So

1:08:12 yeah.

1:08:12 Do do you like what's your favorite chip theory game that's not Roth? Um, I do enjoy Too Many Bones. I am not a big co-op player,

1:08:24 right?

1:08:25 Um, nor solo. So, it's it's funny that I'm working with them at all because the truth is is I'm not a solo or a co-op player,

1:08:33 right? It's not an apparent match out of the gates.

1:08:35 No. No. So what really it kind of started as excuse me them wanting to figure out well I kind of maybe boldly said hey what if you guys made product that wasn't made out of plastic and [snorts] what if people could afford your games you know that was one of my introductory conversations was what if average people could buy a chip theory game would that be cool and they they jokingly and not jokingly were like yeah that'd be kind of cool you you know, but they they had set a standard at uh at their company that this is the products they make. And I think that's one of those things to

1:09:16 kind of it's cool. It's really cool that they have a they have a product standard and they hold to that at Chip theory. And that's inspiring. It's amazing. Um and but I kind of floated the question, well, what if you didn't only do that? What if there was other products? What if you made games that were actually easy to learn and difficult to master but and cost 50 bucks or less? And there was a lot of curiosity, a lot of interest in that idea. And Neon Knight kind of hadn't existed yet. So Roth was really the first foray into them creating a we'll call it cheap game.

1:09:55 Yeah.

1:09:56 You know, and it was $65 still. So, but to their fan base, Roth was cheap, right? That was very

1:10:04 when I have I don't even know how much is in that trove chest sitting there. When I saw Roth come come around at 65, I was like, "Oh, this is interesting." And then deliver the kind of quality that was still delivered was was great.

1:10:16 Yep. So, I think that that that was what kind of birthed the the notion of um so my friend Jeff Jacobson and I we started creating Neon Knight Studio on our own outside of Chip Theory.

1:10:30 And was it called something before Neon Knight and then when it got acquired it changed or No,

1:10:35 no, it was called Neon Knight the whole time. Um, and so we kind of created this and we were only running for about a year or less, just the two of us making our games, doing the thing. Uh, Neon Rain was our first

1:10:51 game that we had worked on.

1:10:53 Um, but even there, Neon Rain was a game I made with my friend Aaron Hine in 2018. So, I had already we'd already built it and it just kind of sat there and I didn't know what to do with it. And I had to So I I assume you've seen Neon Rain. Yep.

1:11:08 Have you? Okay.

1:11:09 Yep.

1:11:10 So that art predates Dice Throne.

1:11:14 Really?

1:11:14 I drew that art before Dice Throne was a game.

1:11:18 That's interesting.

1:11:20 Yep.

1:11:22 But it also has your telltale.

1:11:24 It looks like It looks like Dice art. Yes,

1:11:27 absolutely it does.

1:11:29 So that art was me experimenting. There was no game at the time. It was just me making a comic book and creating characters.

1:11:37 And but that was my lunchtime explorations for how can I make art fast enough to produce on a on a regular cadence. And so Neon Rain, uh, my friend Aaron Hine and I, we built that game system and then over years we just kept chipping away, chipping away, chipping away at it. And then we decided that'll be the first Neon Knight game. And then I when we started, we thought, well, we're just going to do mom and pop shop where Jeff and I are going to build this little company.

1:12:12 We started realizing really quickly, I kind of have a job. I work with Dice Throne and Jeff is a sales for a company, right?

1:12:21 And so I ended up talking to multiple publishers about, hey, what if I made fully finished little games? Would people want them? I can do the art. I'll do graphic design. I'll lead the design and development work and I just hand you a game and then you guys can do whatever development you need to after that. But you I I didn't want to be a burden on a publisher. I just wanted to make fun things and be able to hand it off. And Chip Theory ended up being the company I went with.

1:12:51 And

1:12:52 were you considering others?

1:12:54 Yeah, I talked with three other ones and all which were really cool. They're really good options and good good idea companies who make great products.

1:13:04 Why not stick with Roxley?

1:13:08 Because the conversation I had, like I talked with Gavin about it,

1:13:15 but Gavin is a visionary. Like the products they make at Roxley are games he wants to make.

1:13:23 And that's something I love about Gavin is he knows exactly the games that he wants to make. And so I really I didn't belong in that place telling him, "Hey, this is the game we should make. This is the game we should publish. Here's the game." Because the games I'm making on my own, they're for me. They're just fun. I make them. I I don't want to be a burden on a company that I'm working with or partnering with. And I didn't want to be a burden on Gavin. I didn't want him to feel like he now has to bend to my desires or wishes. I wanted to just make things and have fun. And I also really was I was really glad for him when we kind of agreed this isn't the right place. But I think what that did is it you know I'm speaking for him at the moment so this isn't words he said but

1:14:14 I think he started to really focus on more and more on Roxley as his primary outlet for creating and producing and

1:14:24 sorry. Anyways, but it was I I I think in the end it wasn't the right partnership, but not because Gavin I mean Gavin elevates everything he touches. Excalibur is a great example. Um and I had worked with Gavin on on Excalibur and they refined that game to the sharpened blade that it is. Right. It is it's as amazing as it is. Not because of, you know, again, I I view myself almost like a seed. I helped get it started, but that game is amazing because of Gavin and Adam and James and their whole team, right? So, anyways, but the the one of the primary reasons I went with Chip Theory was I wanted to help them see if they could branch into a larger market. I wanted to see is it possible to help contribute to the success of their company by helping to make games that were more affordable and retailable and and I think the answer is yes, it's possible to do that. And so it was kind of exciting to just view almost my relationship with them like a way for me to try to help try to help them grow, try to give them more opportunities to broaden their brand.

1:15:45 Um, and it also gave them potentially an outlet for a more retail friendly non-plastic based products. So, you know, and then recently, uh, Jen Graham Mock came in as the head of studio for Neon Knight.

1:16:01 Mhm.

1:16:02 And she, you know, the I'm blanking on the name of the company, um, who did Parks

1:16:09 Key Master,

1:16:10 uh, Key Master. So, she was there for many years and she took the opportunity to come and lead the studio for Neon Knight and it's been really cool to watch her work and I think the two of us have a really good partnership, a very good friendship on this now. Um, so I'm pretty excited by that and she has a very good strong sense of retail, a strong sense of marketing and product. Um, and so we spent a lot of time at Gen Con, you know, hanging out, talking, planning.

1:16:43 How does the overlap, if any, work with Chip Theory? Like, is there like how does the relationship actually work now? I mean, I know well, Roth is going to Neon Knight, right? But it was Chip Theory along with it will now carry the Neon Knight branding so that it can this hopefully that will open up the retail avenues more for Roth,

1:17:04 right? Um, I mean, Neon Knight, think about it more like it's a studio under chip theory,

1:17:10 right?

1:17:11 Right. And so it allows for the creation kind of production of games that are, you know, we'll use generic taglines of it's easy to play and hard to master and it's accessible to all ages and, you know, doesn't cost $100 for a box or 150 or 200, you know. And so those mantras are kind of part of the plan of Neon Knight. And so, you know, that's kind of where we're at at the moment.

1:17:44 Do does Chip Theory do any development on Neon Knight titles?

1:17:49 So, up until now, yes. So, Wreck was heavily heavily developed and co-designed by a bunch of the guys. So,

1:17:58 Ryan and Salem and Liz and or uh and Andrew Santoro. um their design development team like I think uh Santoro I think he designed three of the factions for for Wreck um but again Wreck was my colonel that I built the system of and then they have been doing refinement work like the five six player version they they crafted the rules for that um I think going forward they have a ton of work they're

1:18:29 heavily I'll use the word heavily burdened but it's it's their job they tons of work to do for Chip.

1:18:35 So, I know that Jen and I are looking at how do we build a brand that doesn't just sap the life out of their company, right? That's the goal isn't to overburden Chip Theory. The goal is to be an accent and to if they have time and freedom, I definitely want their input because it's a studio really amazing people. But we are also talking about hey how do we do development in the future? How do we do will I do all the art for every Neon Knight game? Maybe not. Will I design every Neon Knight game? Maybe not. Um but Neon Knight is

1:19:18 kind of an outlet for me to create and I have like eight or 10 games I'm working on in various stages.

1:19:24 Really? All for all planned for Neon Knight?

1:19:28 Well, potentially. I mean, yeah. I mean, that's currently the goal, but we don't we're not going to publish five games a year, right? It's, you know, I think I mean, and Jen could speak more to this than me at the moment, but if we did two games a year, that would probably be okay to me, right?

1:19:47 Is is Roth going to be kind of the largest box, largest experience that Neon Knight creates?

1:19:55 I think it will be on the upper end. Yeah. I I I would prefer to not go much heavier or larger in scope, but I will say I do have a a game that I'm working on or I I built a playable version of that is probably as big or maybe a little bigger.

1:20:16 Okay.

1:20:16 And so I just want to be very careful and that might just be a componentry issue. I don't know for sure. My goal is not to make games that cost $200. Like that's that's not

1:20:26 well with the way things are going and that might be inevitable no matter the size of the box.

1:20:31 Right. Right. Right. It's it's very expensive to make product now.

1:20:35 Yeah.

1:20:36 So all the more I want to be cost conscious but I don't want cost to be a thing that designs the product.

1:20:43 I think that that's also important that

1:20:45 money shouldn't be designing products.

1:20:48 How many people work at Neon Knight now? Well, there's one employee.

1:20:54 Yeah.

1:20:55 Yeah.

1:20:56 And I'm a designer, consultant, helper, right? I mean, I'm

1:21:05 How do you split your time between Dice Throne and Neon Knight?

1:21:09 I kind of view it as we go. Like when something becomes louder and needs my attention sooner, then I kind of focus on that for a bit and then I as it starts to die down, then I'll focus on something else. And then I'll like it it tends to be very fluid.

1:21:24 Yeah.

1:21:24 At the moment. Um, Dice Throne has a team of 10 people,

1:21:30 right?

1:21:30 Uh, Neon Knight has one plus me.

1:21:34 Was that zero before Jen got there?

1:21:37 It was just me. Yeah.

1:21:38 And then, but it was me taking advantage of maybe that sounds negative. Using utilizing the tools and the people at JIP Theory,

1:21:46 right? So, you know, we needed a sculpture for a Roth thing. Well, one of their guys would do that.

1:21:53 Yeah.

1:21:54 You know, we need some development work. Well, some of their guys would jump in and help with that. And that's amazing and they did a great job. But I think the goal is to draw less upon the people who are already working really hard because the goal isn't to overburden and burn people out. That would that would be very frustrating to me if the games I make for fun for myself end up burning out people around me,

1:22:20 right?

1:22:20 And that seems counterintuitive to why I made it in the first place, right?

1:22:24 Are you going to try to build a team? Because presum, you know, something's got to give if if Chip Theory was doing this development work and all of that stuff.

1:22:33 I mean, that's a that's probably a long-term plan, but there's plenty of contractors. I mean, you can hire development contractors. You can hire game designers. You can hire illustrators. I mean, we're not going to It's not going to be Jen and I doing everything. Right.

1:22:47 Right. Poor Jen.

1:22:48 It's just that Yeah. No, I mean, she's We're not designer, artist, illustrator, graphic designer, manufacturer, production, development, you know, we're not all those things.

1:22:59 Got it. Got it. Got it.

1:23:00 So, we, you know, we've met with a development team that will hopefully help us on one of our next projects. Um, and I'm pretty sure they're they're going to um, and we've talked with a graphic design team that can potentially help us with graphic design in the future. We met with game designers at uh, Gen Con looking at different possible products. Um,

1:23:22 so that's something you are looking to sign games up to an extent that aren't yours. I mean, I think I'd be fooled not to at least hear

1:23:31 and to keep my eyes open and my heart open to ideas and options cuz I'm not the only designer on the planet and I'm definitely not the best designer on the planet. And so I think it's important to realize that, you know, if someone has a gem and we can help make that a reality and make it a good product that meets the core tenants of Neon Knight. Again, that notion of it's relatively easy to play, it's difficult to master, it's relatively affordable, it's thematic and energetic and fun. You know, those are the things we want to be what people say. Is head-to-head combat one of those core principles?

1:24:17 Uh, I have a tendency to design in that direction, but that doesn't

1:24:24 like the next product we're currently working on is not head-to-head, but it is competitive,

1:24:30 right? You're generating points. He they who have the most points at the end is the winner. So there's a competitiveness to it, but it's not the next one is not nearly as aggressive.

1:24:42 Okay. And

1:24:43 so you're open open to kind of changing or or going away from kind of your preferred style uh that you've kind of designed so far to date.

1:24:54 Yeah. And the one I'm this one I'm talking about is a game I designed like I I built this.

1:24:58 So you're evolving as well.

1:25:00 I am. I I am trying I'm trying to grow.

1:25:03 Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it tends to be the games I tend to create tend to be based on aspects of the board game industry that I don't like. Like I'm not a fan of worker placement.

1:25:12 I don't like worker placement games. So I made Roth because Roth answers the question for me. What do I want in a worker in a area control game? Sorry. Area control game. What is it?

1:25:24 What What do I want?

1:25:25 You don't like area control game. So that's why you built Roth. Okay.

1:25:28 Yes. Yeah. Okay. I thought I thought for a second you don't like worker placement. That's why you built wrong.

1:25:33 No, no, no, no, no. I I use the wrong key term.

1:25:35 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just so we're all on the same page.

1:25:37 But I don't like worker placement games very much either e either. So if I were going to make one, what would I do?

1:25:44 And so that's a question I'm asking myself is

1:25:47 uh like my family plays a lot of dominoes. Like a lot of Mexican trained dominoes. They love Mexican drain dominoes. And they love to start with the highest number and go all the way to double zero.

1:25:58 Mhm. And I really, really do not enjoy Mexican trade dominoes. And so if I'm gonna make a domino based game, what would it be like? What would I do to use dominoes in that kind of capacity to make it fun and engaging for me as a player? And so like uh Fight Five, it was war. War is not a game. And it's a game that a a kid learns when they're young and then eventually realize that it's not actually a game. He just said it's a revealing of an outcome. And I was like, well, I bet you can make war and make it fun.

1:26:34 And so Aaron Hine, my buddy and I, we built Fight Five. And it was basically

1:26:39 Fight Five is fun.

1:26:40 I can attest. I like it a lot.

1:26:42 I love Fight Five. And but it is built on the system of war.

1:26:47 Uh, jump masters. I do not enjoy checkers or Chinese checkers very much. And so can I make that system into something that would be fun? And we made jump masters. So there's kind of a theme, [clears throat] a throughine to the kind of games that I work on.

1:27:03 So you're you're rescue rescuing us from some of those tried and true war, checkers, so on so forth. It's had some asymmetric powers.

1:27:13 If what if a person finds themselves not enjoying area control games, then maybe they would enjoy Roth. But does it's I do not believe for a second that people are disingenuous when they say they love worker placement in area control games. Like there's a reason Brass is the number one game on BGG

1:27:35 and sells a bajillion copies and is famous and renowned, right?

1:27:40 And that's not because those people are lying to themselves. It's because they genuinely love what they're experiencing.

1:27:46 And that's not a game for me. And I think that's okay, you know, know thyself. I know myself and I'm just not a fan of those type of games. That's not where I'd gravitate to. And so I would want to be very cautious that anything I say doesn't come across like those games are stupid and people who like them are

1:28:08 stupid. Uh so not liking area control and building Roth. Now, it feels very much like an area control. For me, when I when I think about Roth, the problem it solves is the the the cost to entry that many area control games have. I'm a big fan of Routt, but it has a huge cost to entry. This game doesn't. It's dice drafting, very simple on the surface rules, then you add asymmetry, and it makes it significantly more complicated and fun. Um, how how did you get to Roth? What was like the the impetus other than just not liking Was it not liking a specific area control game? Because it seems like a genre you would like. Oh, Risk.

1:28:53 I don't like Risk. Okay.

1:28:55 Well,

1:28:57 but my boys were just getting to a stage where they were like, "Oh, we played Risk and it lasted for five hours and it was so awesome and we rolled so many dice and and I was like, "Oh, man. and I do not want to I don't want to go through a risk phase where I have to play risk with my boys over and over. And I started to ask myself, well, what is it I what do I like about risk? Well, I like dice combat. I like the idea of combat and I like the idea of a war where we're battling over regions. And like if you distill it all the way down, I played war machine, which I had an army. I would march my army against yours. I would roll dice and fight. And there were things you choices you would make. And you know the thing I don't like about risk is it just there's no flavor in it. There's no there is no asymmetry. There is no flavor.

1:29:50 And [cough and clears throat] and it also goes forever, right? It just it overstays its welcome. And I think so a let's make a game that makes me feel like I am the high elves or the orcs or the the dwarves or whatever the faction is. I want I want to feel that. And that that's very much my dice throne coming out, right? Because dice throne is highly asymmetrical.

1:30:17 Mhm.

1:30:18 And I want to be the barbarian. So I want to be the Kota and their bearlike faction. Um, but I also want there to be I love the hierarchy, the idea that you have [clears throat] elite troops and non- elite troops. So things have value and they feel important and the feats are special. Like you get to have these

1:30:43 very special moments in the game. [cough] Excuse me. Um, I think it was Matt Lees on Shut Up and Sit Down said that even when you're losing in Roth, you can have a moment where you blast the table with a feet.

1:30:58 Yes.

1:30:59 And just go bananas and do something awesome.

1:31:02 Well, and also you have the catch-up mechanism where you get the extra die if you are um what last in turn order. Is that what it is? Or last place essentially.

1:31:12 It's your last place point.

1:31:13 Yeah. Which gives you the Yeah. Gives you the drafting order. Um, and that can lead to a huge turn as well.

1:31:19 Yep. Absolutely. And you may not win like that doesn't mean you're going to win the game, but you at least get the story. You get to have that moment

1:31:28 where like help to create the create the story for the other person that does win, right? Where it's like if you didn't have those mechanisms in there, you'd have that runaway victor problem and um there's no threat sitting there and it's not exciting. those those those one time use powers and the ability to have that extra action is huge.

1:31:48 Well, I'm going to grab a water behind me.

1:31:50 Take your time. Take your time.

1:31:56 Okay. [snorts] So, you you don't like things like root.

1:32:04 I have tried playing root.

1:32:09 Okay.

1:32:09 And it did not go well. Oh, one time.

1:32:12 No, I I only tried it once.

1:32:15 Interesting. I would in in playing Roth, I thought this was might have been a brainchild off of you trying to fix some things with with Root, especially Approachability.

1:32:26 No, no, actually. So, I was one of the people that walked into a Target and I saw Root on the shelf and I was like, "Oh, that looks so cool."

1:32:35 And I love Kyle Farah's art. I love I I first was introduced to Kyle's art in Dungeon Mayhem, the dueling game.

1:32:43 Y

1:32:44 and I loved the look of the game. I thought, "Oh, this must be the cutest little war game that's ever been made and it'll be so light and so fluffy and just right up my alley and my family will want to play it." and I bought it and I opened the box and I started trying to learn it and play it and I I I'm not I'm definitely going to I'm not the smartest guy in the room, right? I just did not understand what I was doing.

1:33:13 So, I bet you if I sat down and played it with someone who knew what they were doing and they could guide me through the the game properly, I bet you I would probably enjoy it

1:33:22 because I do like strategy games and I do like war-based games and I like asymmetry. But I think um the number of people who have said to me, "Root was my favorite area control game, little war game, but now Roth is here because now I can actually play the game in an evening with my friends and

1:33:41 we can get in, we can get out. It's an hour to play. It still feels exciting and dynamic. Um and obviously there's room for both, right? There's no

1:33:51 I think

1:33:51 there is for me on on my shelf 100%. I will [clears throat] play both for totally different instances.

1:33:57 Exactly.

1:33:58 And I think that that's a it's an important thing that the game they built is a brilliant product. It is there's a reason it is as successful as it is. There's a reason that people flock to it and teach it and learn it and keep buying it. Um but I think I would need another go with people who were experienced to help me understand it better. Um, and so I think I definitely didn't build Roth to combat route. Um, it was more a combat of risk. That was actually the the mitigating.

1:34:31 That's interesting. It really Roth really feels like it's a perfect um product that combats the main criticisms of Root, which is approachability, but it keeps the area control, the asymmetry, and um you know, these exciting these exciting moments and and like a you know, I I think a lot of people like Root, including myself, because you can explore these different factions that then create a ton of depth because you have this constant dynamic play space. you have to you have to learn what everyone else is trying to do as well, but it's so much easier in Roth. So, like for me, it actually just solves a bunch of problems I have with getting a game I want to play to the table with people that aren't extreme hobbyists. You know, my wife plays everything I play. She hates playing Root. She will play Roth at any time cuz it's just so much easier for me to like get everyone back up and running because the core rules are so simple. So it is it's it's surprising but it also is like I was wondering am I do I just have that perspective cuz I have root and I that's just like my experience. So it's interesting that risk

1:35:34 is is the

1:35:35 Yeah. Risk was actually the game I was solving for.

1:35:37 Yeah.

1:35:38 Which I'll never outs sell Risk in my life. There's no question. Risk will outsell me every Sunday every day of the week.

1:35:44 Like they'll sell bajillion copies of Risk and we'll sell you know if we sell 50,000 copies of Roth in our lifetime we'll be happy. Right.

1:35:52 Yeah. So, talk me through what the early design looked like compared to where it is now.

1:35:59 Um,

1:36:00 or was it always really similar to where it is now?

1:36:02 It was very similar. Uh, I tell this story fairly often. Uh, my kids and I do a 24-hour game making day once a year. Uh, first weekend, first Saturday in October. And it it coincides with 24-hour comic day, which was my favorite holiday of the year, where people would come together, and I would I did this where you have to draw a comic book in one day. You would write and draw an entire 24page comic book in 24 hours.

1:36:32 Mhm.

1:36:33 And so a bunch of the comic books I've made, I I illustrated in one day, in a 24-h hour period. And so, but when my kids were younger, they couldn't draw comic books. They were, you know, 10 years old, nine years old. And so, I said, "Well, why don't we have a day where we make board games?" I said, "And then we treated it like a like a big party. We would [clears throat] go to the grocery store. We they each got to pick their own snack that they wanted. Like, we're going to buy five bags of chips and chocolate and whatever snacks we want and soda and but we're going to start." That's how you got them.

1:37:11 Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It was. And then on top of it, they got to stay up as late as they wanted as long as they produced. They had to create and play test a full board game that they would make. So, at the end of the day, we would play each of our games that we created.

1:37:32 Mhm. So, everyone's making their own individual game.

1:37:35 Yep. Yep. And then you're helping, right? I got my thing. I think it's play testable here. You guys when Roth was made, it was made in 24 hours.

1:37:46 Um,

1:37:46 was it yours?

1:37:48 It was mine.

1:37:49 Okay.

1:37:50 It was mine.

1:37:52 So, Excalibur, Roth, uh, Jump Masters, and the new game that we're working on with Chip Theor with Neon Knight. So, four games that I've made on a Saturday with my boys.

1:38:10 Oh, that is so cool. So, you just work weekends and then take the weeks off.

1:38:13 Yeah. Just make It's easy. You just make a game on a Saturday. You're fine.

1:38:16 You're making this seem really easy, Manny. I don't know. But like my boys, there's games that my boys um my older son who is turning 16 this month. He he and I co-designed a game in 2018, 2019. Um and he was a co-designer and got part of the royalty check like like they a company bought the game, they paid us an advance and then they never published it and then they gave me the rights back. So, I have this game back and I'm kind of waiting to figure out what should I do with it because

1:38:54 is it gonna be a Neon Knight title? Does it fit the ethos?

1:38:56 Maybe. Maybe. Oh, it totally fits in the ethos of it. Yeah.

1:38:59 Yeah.

1:39:00 Um, but we've they've created a bunch of really cool core concepts like basic mechanics, but they're they're kids and so one of the things they do is they make ridiculous things. like that's the biggest thing they do is

1:39:17 when they're creating now that they've gotten older, they've definitely become more refined in what they're developing or designing.

1:39:25 And so anyways, Roth was built on that day and I just put stickers on dice and I drew the map and the map looked a whole lot like it currently does except it was just pen on paper and some markers or whatever. and I designed some asymmetrical factions and it had elite stuff and then that was that and we just kind of built it.

1:39:50 Uh, sorry, trying to change it. So, the the one thing that stood out to me is that you chose dice drafting as opposed to which we'll get to Wreck and how you change this like actual dice combat like a dice thrown. Was that always the case?

1:40:04 Yeah, Roth was a dice drafting game from the start. What I wanted was a variable menu because the the one thing I have disliked about what I will generically say area control worker placement kind of things where the menu of actions is static,

1:40:20 you can advance, you can recruit, you can redeploy, you can attack, you can blah blah blah, you can harvest, right? So then during your turn, your action is almost it's going to be one of the four things you just get to pick. And I again that question, what do you do with what you have, not what you what you want to have? Like what do you do if the only actions available this turn are to maneuver? What how do you how do you compete against a person if you can't attack this turn, right? And so your some of the factions answer that by having the kota when you move them, they do damage. They can attack in a region that they enter. So, oo, I'm the grizzled Kota and awesome. I'm going to take these blue movement dice because it allows me to not only reposition to gain area or ground, but now I'm doing damage and swinging the game in my favor. So, it was always a dice drafting game. Um, partly because I at the time I thought it might be too much to then also add in dice combat on top of it.

1:41:25 Like, okay, now it's dice. was never a thought originally like dice combat as a Okay.

1:41:31 No. No. Um that I think in in hindsight I'm really glad I didn't push for that because I think that Roth has so much going on. While it is relatively simple, it has a lot of decision points and there's a lot of things you get to choose while you're doing it. And I think if you had to also factor in that every time I use an attack die now I have to factor in dice odds into it. I feel like that might just be too much,

1:41:59 right?

1:42:00 But Wreck

1:42:02 does it slightly differently.

1:42:03 And this is actually what got me kind of excited because that is like the the those dramatic moments create some of the best stories. And then I saw that you started to roll cannon dice, right? Yes, absolutely. So, this was the an attempt to add it in, but really now it's on you to decide is that how you want to use your attack die. If you want to attack from boats to land, you are choosing not to disembark from your boat, which means you lose the elite powers of your elite heroes, characters. You cannot control the island you're shooting at because you're on a boat,

1:42:44 right? and you may whiff. You have a chance that you could not deal the amount of damage you're hoping to do.

1:42:52 So, the attacks have a layered cost to them,

1:42:56 right?

1:42:57 And you get them rolled against you if you're in the boat, right? Which is

1:43:01 if you're if you choose to sail by each other, right?

1:43:04 Okay.

1:43:05 That's the only time.

1:43:06 So, that's I I enjoy that part actually quite a bit. Like, I'm going to sail by you. Are you going to let me or are you going to shoot at me? the person will say I will not shoot at you. Then you move past and they're like actually no I want to shoot at you.

1:43:21 So so that's a choice when somebody when you cross boat paths you can attack at that time without having to

1:43:27 the defender

1:43:28 the defender can. So the attacker cannot initiate conflict in that way but the defender I'm going to sail by you and basically I'm choose I'm trying to wave a flag and be like I'm just trying to get past you man. you gonna let me? And you have the choice to be like, nope, I'm actually going to fire on you with my cannons. And again, no elite dice, no bonus damage. It's still based on the number of troops in the boat. And it creates, again, it creates little fun moments of, you know what? Heck, man, I'm just going to go for it. I'm just going to fire on you,

1:44:03 right?

1:44:04 And then you're like, oh no. And then that backfires on you as the defender and all of a sudden your boat gets wrecked and you're like, oh, all right. So, was this your idea or a Chip theory idea? Because it does feel like Chip theory DNA on the second followup like, "Hey, we have to be chucking dice at each other."

1:44:21 No, this was something I introduced into it. Okay. At the

1:44:24 Was it in was it something you were always thinking about introducing or did it come as a as a as

1:44:30 No, I wanted I I wanted naval battle. I wanted naval battle. I I I but I wanted naval battle to be not required because the truth is you could play the entire game with no one firing a shot from land to boat or boat to land.

1:44:45 It is possible.

1:44:47 But you're not going to do it because

1:44:49 it's not fun. Correct.

1:44:52 My wife and I go at each other's throats and if she has an opportunity to attack me, she will. Even if it's not the best strategic decision. Yes. You know, that's it because that's just the fun way to play.

1:45:03 Absolutely. It's great. And it creates moments. And again, you could be losing

1:45:08 and someone's like, "Well, I need to sail past you because if I do, I get to I'll I'll try to take care of the guy in the lead." And the person who's maybe not winning could be like, "Nah, I'm just going to shoot at you as you sail by me. I don't care."

1:45:24 And you know, then you get into the negotiating part of it of like, "What? You fired up me? Fine. I'm going to fire on you the next time you come and do the, you know, and I think that it feels thematic and right for Wreck to do this. I wouldn't I'm I'm glad I didn't do anything like this in Roth. Like I think that was that would have been the wrong uh method for Roth is. Um so this concept of Exodus I did not even like my first game I wasn't even thinking about it. It wasn't I don't know if I just didn't remember it didn't happen and I kept coming up with like ah I don't like these dice that are here but then it turns out

1:46:02 Exodus might be there to help to mitigate that and also be an insanely powerful move. Was that always part of the the design and does that change in Wreck at all?

1:46:10 It it it was always a part of the design. It was a die face originally. So there was the Exodus action die face.

1:46:17 Oh. So,

1:46:17 okay.

1:46:18 Um, but we found that the earlier the game is, the more powerful Exodus action is. It actually becomes less powerful as the game progresses,

1:46:28 even though you have more of an opportunity to get troops out for that big Exodus action.

1:46:33 So, the reason it works early is because people often load up their deployment zone in Roth,

1:46:38 right? If you get five to 10 guys in your deployment zone, an Exodus action has more efficiency and more power, right,

1:46:46 than it does if you have four people in a region. The other thing is from your deployment zone in Roth, you can touch regions 1 2 3 4 5 and six.

1:46:55 Yes. So, the ability to launch out of your deployment zone, but once you've done that and you're now on regions, the Exodus action becomes less powerful

1:47:05 because generally speaking, you're going to have less guys in any given region.

1:47:10 That doesn't mean it's not useful. It just is less it has less potency than it will early in the game. But it's still there's still moments where you're like, "Oh man, you're you're obviously winning this region." And I got six guys in here, but you are you have the region. So, actually, I'm going to exodus and I'm going to just disperse out of there into the adjacent ones and try to cause havoc. And I'll leave one back there to stop you from dominating, but otherwise I'm going to hop around. So the the Exodus became because it was so powerful, it needed to cost something like you had to it had to cost something. So the fact that you could use two dice [snorts] to exodus at any point in time gives you the freedom now.

1:47:55 And again, that breaks the mo mold of a lot of area control games.

1:47:59 Oh yeah.

1:48:00 Where

1:48:00 it's a hugely powerful power.

1:48:03 Yes. [clears throat] Yes. But it has diminishing returns over the game. Now, wreck is interesting because wreck, you are landlocked on your island until you get a boat or at least if you send your boats out. As you build up reserves on your island, it gets harder to get them out.

1:48:21 Is your island your starting space? The deployment zone.

1:48:24 Yeah, the corners the corners are your starting spot. And you cannot leave there without a boat. And each boat can only hold four troops. So, the most you can exodus is 12 troops out of your deployment. The other catch with Wreck is that a maneuver or an Exodus can either load a boat and sail it or it can sail a preloaded boat and then disembark onto regions. So, you kind of have to pre-build your boats in hopes on your island to get ready to exodus and shoot out across the board. But if you've done that too slowly, someone else might park their boat where you want to go.

1:49:07 You're like, h there, you can't get to the right spot to then disperse in the areas that you want to.

1:49:14 Yeah, you might you might have waited too long to get to that spot. Now, you could go a different path and try to still disembark. The map's not so big that you can't still touch most.

1:49:23 Can you move what? Three of those CC spaces.

1:49:25 Three nodes. Yeah, three. Three nodes across the board. Um, but there's ways to get your votes back once you exodus and all that kind of stuff. So, [clears throat] there's my boys prefer Wreck. They actually think Wreck is the more fun game.

1:49:41 It looks of the two.

1:49:43 I mean, I I'm a big fan of Roth, but Wreck does look more interesting, which makes sense. You're adding more

1:49:49 componentry, but it's also more complex. I don't know that I would start somebody with Wreck. I don't know. What do you What do you think there?

1:49:56 Yeah, I would agree. I I taught my wife's dad. We we played and he joined and uh he ended up winning with a little assistance, but it was his first time playing Roth or Wreck.

1:50:08 Mhm.

1:50:08 And it took him a little while to wrap his head around it. And I would definitely say Wreck is It is slightly more complicated than Roth.

1:50:16 Are the factions more complicated as well? I know there's still the same number, but still pretty straightforward on what

1:50:22 No, they they have unique mechanics. the Muran, the fish people, they actually have a troop that is equal to the value on the die.

1:50:31 So if you have a four spore,

1:50:34 yeah, the spore. Yeah,

1:50:36 the spore. So the spore if it's a four, it's actually equal to four troops.

1:50:40 That's what I got wrong in my first game as well. I was like I kept wanting to have those big troops be my power in that particular area. So it's interesting.

1:50:48 And that was the original game when we created it. That's what it was.

1:50:51 Oh, really?

1:50:52 So your your Grizzled was five. He was worth five troops, but that very quickly was revealed to be too strong. So if I wanted to win a region, I just dropped three grizzled at five each and I have 15 troops in a region. That's that's just too much.

1:51:08 Yeah.

1:51:08 Um so it was the right thing to change for sure. But now that we understand the game better, now we can do things like that. Now we can But there's a cost, right? It's going to cost you something to do that. And it puts a target on your head. That's one of the parts I love most about Roth and Wreck is that played well. If one person starts to inch ahead of the others, there really should be like timeout. Manny's got a lead and it looks he looks more powerful. So, why don't we call a temporary alliance here [snorts] and I'm going to go attack him and I'm going to do this. What are you going to do to stop him?

1:51:45 And then I'm over here being like, "What guys? I'm just trying to get some points. Not a big deal." you know,

1:51:51 well, it's funny. That's one of my favorite parts in Root. Uh, but it's also bites me more often than not where I will set the other person up for whatever reason, you know, to win and not myself. But it is still satisfying if I turn my goal to just making that person not win. It's still I still feel like I get a win if they don't win.

1:52:10 There it's a it's a fun balance because the the whole kingmaking element of it is rough. Like some people get real mad about that. I think the one of the parts that makes it maybe a little more okay in Roth and Wreck is that if you're experienced the game's over in about an hour.

1:52:28 That's exactly what I was going to say. That's what makes it okay. Y

1:52:31 yes. It makes it it makes it palatable. And you end up in a situation where it's a bunch of friends. We're playing games. You win all the time. So I'm just gonna pick on you. It's just gonna be

1:52:42 we're just gonna have a good time and I'm gonna fire all my cannon shots at you.

1:52:46 Yeah. Like I often I'll often tell my wife and my f my my my boys that when we're playing games, we're not family. Like,

1:52:54 yeah,

1:52:54 I'm sorry, Lisa, you're not my wife right now. We're playing a game.

1:52:58 And that doesn't mean I abuse that situation. But we joke that I'm playing dice thrown. My goal is to defeat you. It's not to but the the key one of the things I think is really important when playing games with people is my object even though the objective of the game is to win my goal is to create an situation where she wants to play again like I I am not here to win even if the objective of the game is to win and I think that creates an environment where people come back and they want to keep experiencing your game. Now, it's possible. I'm I'm not the best at Roth, but I'm pretty good. My boys will often be like, "Dad, you get stuck with the garbage faction. We're going to play the good ones."

1:53:47 Why did you make sounds good, Dad?

1:53:50 Yeah. And I always make them pick my faction. And then when we play, they can't help themselves. They're brothers. They start picking on each other. And then they start fighting. And then I just quietly build an empire. and I use my bully into each other

1:54:07 and then in the end I win the game.

1:54:10 But they had a blast fighting each other and yelling at each other and being mad that the brother should have attacked me but didn't cuz he was feeling vindictive and you know like great there's a story and guess what we want to play Roth again and we get to win. When did you know that Wreck was going to be was going to be meaning like the the boats in the sea? This theme was something that you wanted as the follow-up or there other options that you were weighing?

1:54:38 Um, wreck was created in the last six months.

1:54:43 Okay.

1:54:43 Like it was fairly recently that it was built. Um, and I think it was I think there there was a little bit of a wait and see with Roth.

1:54:53 Mh. Um because we didn't know I mean is this going to be popular? Is it successful? It it definitely deviates a little bit from a more standard area control game.

1:55:05 Yeah.

1:55:06 And so and it's coming out of Chip Theory who doesn't make these type of games. [snorts]

1:55:11 Um we did the solo co-op thing, but the truth is is the solo co-op's not great. It's

1:55:17 that was going to be a question. That's that's what everyone in the comments wants to know. Why no solo and co-op? it. The the truth is is the solo and co-op was kind of forced in because they wanted to

1:55:30 they wanted their fans to enjoy and a lot of their fans are solo co-op players

1:55:35 and I think that you're seeing that in the comments now, right? [cough and clears throat]

1:55:39 Yep. And so I think the the very first iteration of the solo version I actually was trying I was like I want to make a fun soloable version of this but I don't want to break the competitive the competitive version cuz the competitive version is the one I wanted. Yeah.

1:55:57 So again, you come back to did I make a game for me or did I make it for a person who wants to play solo co-op? And I made it for me first and then Chip Theory and I tried to make a solo co-op co-opable version and it works. And if you go on their Discord, you'll see people who defend it and are like, "This is super fun. I've loved it. I've beat all the factions. I do it." But they will often compare it to a puzzle game. They'll say that

1:56:29 Yeah. Because it's like giving you a goal, right, to

1:56:32 Yes. You have to stop the blah blah blah from reaching their end point at this point, but they disperse from this area, which means they're more likely to win because they now control XYZ, whatever. Um the guys the guys the people on their Discord when they describe it and help other people understand they're like if you treat it like a puzzle you'll realize that it's a very satisfying puzzle to crack.

1:56:58 Mhm.

1:56:58 But if you treat it like an area control war game that you're playing solo, you're probably not going to like it because it's not an area control war game.

1:57:07 Yeah. And preparing for this, I looked into it and it looked like a fun puzzle. I didn't know why. First of all, it got so much flak in the first place, probably because the expectations, right? But then people are now pissed that it doesn't exist. I I don't understand.

1:57:20 Yes.

1:57:21 What's what's going on? I talked to Andrew a little bit about that. It just didn't it didn't make sense that people are clamoring for something that some complained about. So, I guess people did like it or they want it to be fixed. Like

1:57:33 they want it to be fixed. Okay.

1:57:34 But I I think people do want it to be fixed. And I think if there was a way to fix it and stay true to the part of the game that people mostly respond positively to, like most of the positive reviews are about how exciting and fun the competitive two to four player area control game is.

1:57:51 Yeah.

1:57:52 And I think that is telling because that was what was created. Like that was the game. And I think we I mean I I'm not going to say that we failed to make a solo co-op game cuz I think we succeeded. I think we made a solo co-opable game and I think there are people who really enjoy it. But there are also

1:58:12 control is tough, right? Yeah,

1:58:14 it's fun because of the dynamic play space, a dynamic play space. If you want it to be truly dynamic, you've got to create a crazy AI um algorithm that nobody wants to run except for I mean some do some there's some psychopaths out there that I but I hate that. I hate I hate having an algorithm that I have to sit there read and and run. So

1:58:33 yeah. Yeah. and wreck was just physically impossible to convert with the paths and the boat cannon dice and the fighting land to sea sea to land the ver the fact that now the the elites don't have powers on boats but they do on land it like when you if you control the eastern sea that has the ability to push the boats where do they push them

1:58:58 where does an AI system do that it quite literally I mean when I started wreck E, I was like, there is no co-op. There's no solo, no co-op here. This is not designed to be honorable to that community. And I think it just has to be okay. That that's what it is.

1:59:16 I love that decision. I hate when we try to make every game for everybody and you start to sacrifice design decisions. There's some really interesting things you have going on here with Wreck that if you're saying you wouldn't exist if you had to make, you know, a a solo co-op. Let's let's make the interesting game

1:59:35 as interesting as possible instead of, you know, vanilla so you can put a bot in there that will make sense. So, um I commend I commend the decision and and to stick with it in the midst of uh people complaining about it, you know, relatively heavily in the comments. Um, I I also respect that because I think a lot of people would have uh bowed to that and still and just made it or figured it out, but you know, maybe you couldn't either way because you made such a unique experience.

2:00:03 It literally with Wreck, it was not physically possible to do it. So, what we do allow is for you to play all of the Wreck factions in Roth and in the solo and co-op.

2:00:16 So, still work fine solo.

2:00:19 They're fine. the map the

2:00:21 constraint

2:00:22 the map is different. Um the other thing you can't do is there's no AI version of the um the

2:00:29 faction. Yeah.

2:00:30 Yeah. So you can take the Ramikai and the Murin and you can play them against the Roth faction AI,

2:00:38 but you can't use them as AI to battle against.

2:00:41 So none of the new factions have a a water specific powers?

2:00:46 Uh no they do not. Did you want to do that?

2:00:50 I did want to, but if I did that, they would no longer be cross-co compatible. And so what we did instead is we're creating uh a generic feats that people can choose that if you want, you can have a feat that is specific to Wreck.

2:01:07 Oh.

2:01:07 Or a feat that is specific to Roth. But you also could just choose amongst your own feats or a they have like a feat deck that we're building a whole pack of cards

2:01:18 that offer Rothbased wreck cross-co compatible. And so I think that that's when we started there was two there was two paths. One is wreck exists all by itself.

2:01:33 All the factions are built to be boat-based, waterbased, island based. But if you if [clears throat] you do that now, none of the factions are cross-co compatible. Now you can't play the Ramachai on Roth. Now that's a choice. There's many like I can't play Azul stained glass CRA and I can't mix it with regular Azul, right? There's very much a precedent in board games that if you want the followup to Azul, you're buying a brand new game that is its own system. But there was kind of a a a costbenefit analysis or I don't even know how you want to say it, but a an exploration of would it be better if these six new factions are playable in Roth and the Roth factions are playable in Wreck.

2:02:22 So that now at least what you get is you get six new factions to play against all the AI decks and all the AI the eight AI factions in Roth. So sorry there's no AI map for Wreck and you know I don't know that there's a lot to be done about it but this is the version of the game we wanted to make. Is there any way in the future we get like an April Fool's promo uh water map only faction that is highly asymmetric to to the boats and and such. That would be kind of cool.

2:02:59 It would be very cool. It'd be very cool.

2:03:01 I know we're, you know, it's not going to be Chip theory anymore, so maybe that's out the out the window, but that would be I I think it would be interesting. Like you could probably do I'm sure you have ideas to do really interesting things with with the water that are asymmetric.

2:03:14 Yeah. Yeah. And I also we're trying to forward think to let's say this is successful and W does well and it continues to grow the community and it becomes a popular thing. Well, what if we wanted to make a third game,

2:03:27 right? Do we want those factions to be cross-co compatible still or do we want to create three isolated, you know, product lines or product games?

2:03:36 Yeah. I mean, I'm getting ahead myself. Who knows what the future holds, right? I mean, from a sales perspective, I think making them fully cross-co compatible is is probably worth it. Um, but you might also have a couple specialized promo things that just go out there, you know, some cool stuff for the for the super fans. Maybe like a Gen Con exclusive. Who knows?

2:03:56 Uh, yeah. Who knows what the future holds, you know?

2:03:59 What's the next map then? Like if you if I had to, you know, say today you've got to pick your next your next arena, what would it be? Um, there's some different ideas. Some are like a literal king of the hill, like you like the point is that we're all racing up a mountain, so to speak to we're fighting as we're going up and trying to plant a flag on the top and try to own the top of the hill. Like there was a joke way way way back at the beginning that Roth stood for we we really own the hill. Right. So, like just kind of a king of the hill kind of style uh map, but I I I am actually working on a third iteration of the game.

2:04:48 Okay. Okay.

2:04:49 And I don't know when that would ever come out, but I am actively working on it.

2:04:54 Do you work on the concept of the map first or the factions first?

2:04:59 Uh the the map. the map

2:05:01 because the map and the the mechanics of the world like like take Wreck. Wreck needed boats and then it had the boat dice and the sea battles and the water areas to control, land areas to control, right? And so when I first play tested it, I used Roth factions because I didn't need to make factions yet for it because right

2:05:23 the game had to work with the factions.

2:05:25 That's actually perfect. So, whatever the next one is, it needs to have its own gimmick. It needs to have its own thing that would make it unique and special and a fun iteration on the game. Um, and there's ideas. There's definitely ideas to think about and to brainstorm for the future.

2:05:44 Do you think you'll always introduce a map with factions or ever do just factions or just a map?

2:05:50 I think there's a there's a world where introducing more factions might be enough,

2:05:56 right? It's that I mean

2:06:00 usually the map doesn't excite me at all but this you made such it almost feels like in reading the rules a totally different experience because it is so different from the original.

2:06:11 Yeah. I think if it's I think you kind of have to take it bite at a time.

2:06:15 Yeah. Like if if we can if we can come up with if I can come up with a game mechanic or system that feels invigorating and fun and like a unique new challenge and a fun way to create an arena to battle in, then probably a full box again with factions. But I think there's a world where if the if this game is successful, um why not release new factions? Why not have a

2:06:42 balance? Well, right. Of course. balance.

2:06:46 Well, I mean, how how tough is how much of that is are you having to think about? I mean, you clearly had to think about that with dice thrown, but I would imagine it's so much more difficult with a dynamic map that you're also having to deal with.

2:06:59 Yeah, I think adding the dynamic map, I will say that Roth factions are less com they're less pieces like mechanically.

2:07:09 Yeah,

2:07:09 there there are there are far less things to concern yourself with. Technically, there is three feed cards and three elites.

2:07:18 So, you have you have, we'll call it, four ingredients to mix when you're making something. You know, the elites can have special abilities, but what do they do? They have to interact with land, with resources, with movement, with healing, control, etc. Right? Right. So, no matter what you do with your new factions, they must all interact with the core tenants of the game. Um, dice throne also has its ingredients. I think dice thrown ingredients and componentry is actually more exhaustive. Like per hero, there's the status effects. There's the board and the abilities. There's the dice and how they interact with the abilities and their complexity to roll. Then there is the cards and the special abilities you put in the deck. Plus there is all of these things interact with damage, healing, prevention,

2:08:13 um, debuffs, buffs, etc. So, but there is still a finite amount of ingredients in the dice thrown hero,

2:08:21 but it is it is richer, I would say, than Roth faction.

2:08:26 How many how many factions do you think this game could ultimately um, uh, support? Boy, my I would be curious if we go past a third release with six hero, six factions.

2:08:43 Okay.

2:08:44 Like a third release with six factions puts us at what is it? 19, right? Cuz there's six, another six, and then seven. So 19 total factions and three maps and gameplay mechanics. That's a that feels pretty robust. We're at 45 heroes in Dice Throne. So, I don't I remember talking with Nate years ago saying, "Man, what if we got to 30 heroes? Wouldn't that be amazing? Is that too many? Are we going to even The question is, will you 100?"

2:09:16 I know. I know. Now, that's the new like, can we depends on the IP, right?

2:09:20 Like, if there's another IP, there you go.

2:09:24 But, you know, can we do that and still have it be fresh and unique and fun? I think that's the the the ability to self-evaluate in those situations is important

2:09:33 because I don't think it would be beneficial to just

2:09:37 dump out heroes or factions for either brand, dice or Roth,

2:09:41 right?

2:09:41 So, I would rather not make a third one than make a third one and feel like I'm just crafting junk to sell. That just doesn't sound fun.

2:09:55 But I don't I don't think we would. I think if we made a third one, I mean the guys at the develop the designer developers at Chip Theory have already expressed what about this faction and what about this one? What about this one? What about this one? [snorts] You know, so I think I think we easily have another six factions in us.

2:10:13 Mhm.

2:10:13 And another map, you know, based on what I'm currently playing with, I think the next map could be very interesting. Um, it introduces new mechanics. It introduces new systems. Uh there are no boats. Um and so

2:10:31 airplanes that allow us to jump over

2:10:33 neither neither of those

2:10:36 portals maybe portals I can uh through.

2:10:40 There's it's just it's fun to think about and right now I'm having fun designing and working in it. So I think if I'm having a good time making it and people are enjoying it then it's probably worth exploring. Well, I mean, that's how you get the great art is when you are truly having fun and you're not up against a, hey, the publisher asked you for

2:10:59 the expansion to your popular game. Um,

2:11:02 yep.

2:11:02 You know, because it's something to sell. I was surprised that you did so many factions on the second round, like, you know, back to Root. I'm just going to throw this into the ground. They do two at a time, you know, essentially. And, you know, maybe there's a little extra things that they go along. You're throwing what is it? Six or seven more this time around.

2:11:19 There's six. Four in the base game plus two. And there was six on the first one, right?

2:11:24 There's seven

2:11:25 because the box came with five.

2:11:26 Oh, that's right.

2:11:27 The reason it the reason it came with five was the Uglan were originally intended to be the AI faction. Like the very very very first iteration, the Uglan were the bad guys who come up out of the crevices in the ground and you have to stop them.

2:11:40 I think they're my favorite to play out of the base now that I think about it. Yeah, I think so.

2:11:45 Yeah, I I don't have the expansion one so I don't I don't know, but I just just have the base. Uglan I really like.

2:11:51 Yep. So yeah, I think there's I think there's room. I I think the the the reason behind the four in this new base box is it's a standalone product,

2:12:02 right?

2:12:02 Like you you could walk up to a shelf and buy Wreck and never own Roth, never care about it. You you could just be like, me, I don't care about that game.

2:12:11 And but if we had put two factions in it, I think that would have been underserving the product, right? Well, yeah, especially I mean if you want if you want it to be that standalone box, which I definitely see because it is um you know, it's not the entry level. I mean, if I guess if you're comparing it to Roth, like it it totally makes sense to have that as a totally separate experience and not something that somebody has to go and invest in.

2:12:38 Makes sense. Uh any thoughts on like little uh back to root they do hieran so the mini factions that that would that would um uh help lower player counts be interesting now I've enjoy this at two much more than I do root so I don't think it has a two-player problem but any thoughts on on fleshing the board out a little bit more when at lower player counts

2:13:00 I as a dueler I love playing two-player Roth

2:13:06 because you end up because of the open information on the game and at two players you get three actions every round,

2:13:14 right?

2:13:14 Plus, if you're losing, you get a fourth action. The game is very quick. I'll play with my boys and we'll play 20 minute games of Roth

2:13:23 and because again, I'm I'm battling you like I'm watching you posture and I'm like, "Okay,

2:13:30 it just happened to be the three ended up in a place that's easy for me to get victory points." So, I see you rush it and I'm like, "You know what? I'm going to disperse into other regions now. I'm going to propose a question back to you. You go ahead and get three and I'll contest, but I'm going to start getting six a turn because I own three other regions. Now, what are you going to do about it? Ah, I And then there's a game of chicken with your feats in two-player. Who's going to feed first? And you don't like certain feats you want to do earlier, some you want to do later. Um, and by later meaning, you know, instead of first turn or second turn, you might wait till third, right? But that the the strategic dueling nature of Roth comes out pretty strong in two-player. But I think it's harder like if you're an area control person, you're probably not going to enjoy Roth at two-player as much because it does pit you directly against a singular singular opponent,

2:14:24 right? [snorts]

2:14:24 And I think you have to think differently about the game. Uh, three player is interesting because you you I would consider the third player and it doesn't matter which one you view. One of us is going to view the other one of us as a third player and that third player is a bit of a wild card. That person can shift balance. They can form alliances. They can they can try to force ties while gaining points. And so it creates almost like a like the triangle of the game becomes a little sharper because now the game is much like if one person does something kind of aggressive or dangerous, the game becomes very tense.

2:15:08 Whereas four, you kind of are always going to be fighting something. At four, you're always battling.

2:15:15 You're always trying to contest.

2:15:18 Everyone is everywhere all the time. Yes.

2:15:20 Um, now we have the five and six player map coming, right? So on this campaign, you can add on the expansion for

2:15:29 a separate map.

2:15:31 Yep.

2:15:31 Is it the dark mode one?

2:15:34 No, the dark mode is just a goofy fun version of the primary maps, but there's a five and six player expansion in there. And what it does is it gives you the Roth and Wreck map at a larger scale and it gives you the extra dice and tokens you need in order to be able to do a five and six player game,

2:15:52 but it changes the drafting rules slightly, but that is and it lowers I think it lowers the victory point total down to 25 instead of 30.

2:16:02 Um, but five and six player is very intense. you. It is a massive skirmish and it takes longer to play. So, doing it, you kind of have to realize we're doing this because we want to spend

2:16:17 an hour and a half to two hours playing Roth.

2:16:20 Yeah. And is it still two actions per turn and the last place gets the third?

2:16:25 Two people get the last eye.

2:16:26 Oh, okay. The bottom two.

2:16:29 Yep.

2:16:30 And if there's two people tied, then they get it based on turn order. So, two people will always get the last place die after the first round. Um, so

2:16:42 you you mentioned the three on the two-player and I really do like having three actions. Why not push the push the three forward on all the other games just so you could have the catch-up mechanism or uh what design constraint did you did you face?

2:16:58 Uh I again I liked the idea. What do you do with what you have? You have two actions.

2:17:02 You wanted a constraint there. Yep. Because technically you have three actions every turn already because you have your allseeing die and your two action dice

2:17:11 and then you have abilities to manage as well.

2:17:14 So I think two felt like the right amount of actions per round to manage and not have the gale the game swing wildly any one direction. And if it does that tends to be because people are not paying attention.

2:17:29 Right.

2:17:30 Right. If you're not paying attention to, you know, this person over here, right, they're they're running away with a region, that's kind of on you and me for not paying attention to someone running away with something. Um, and I think if you give everyone an extra die, I think it makes each round potentially a little bit more dangerous, a little more volatile. So, just my two cents. the your favorite new faction.

2:17:58 Uh, of the new factions, I am a fan. I was going to say the the fish people, the Murin. Um, I really really like what they do. And I love that they have this desire to create ties in regions.

2:18:16 Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.

2:18:18 So that they can then win the region regardless of the core victory point. So that could actually hurt them and go down to two instead of three victory points. But when everyone would normally get nothing, they get something. And so there's that. The um the Overkin are pretty cool. They're giants. And so their guys, their their elites kind of represent large characters.

2:18:47 Mhm.

2:18:48 And it's kind of a it's a fun dynamic. Uh, I feel like the biggest jerk move you can do in in in Wreck is play the Ramachi and you drop totem totems in regions and now people can't enter that region.

2:19:01 They can shoot at all.

2:19:03 No one can go in the region until the totem's gone.

2:19:06 How do they get rid of

2:19:07 you can shoot at them from adjacent regions, but you can't enter while they're alive,

2:19:12 you know, while they're standing.

2:19:13 And so you put a massive target on your head when you're playing Ramachai and you drop totems as soon as you do. People are like, "All right, everyone. We're we're going to pause. We're going to shoot these totems off this board. Everyone get to work." And it's great cuz you're causing everyone to pause the game

2:19:29 and come deal with your your little totems that cause everyone a massive headache.

2:19:35 The one that stood out to me was the Roy. Tell me how the how the possession works. The little pieces you literally put the other pieces inside of it. I think right

2:19:45 you do. you absolutely you can move into a region and possess uh a character a different uh grunt troop or troop. Um and then they have uh an elite troop that can reduce its health to also possess guys off of your mat. So they can pull them right off your mat and once they're possessed they're gone gone. Like once they're like you'll never get them back again even if you kill that roy cuz you always have to destroy the troop inside the spirit the roy and before you get the

2:20:19 Oh so they have two health uh one

2:20:21 basically yeah the

2:20:22 so that's the benefit getting possessed.

2:20:26 Yeah.

2:20:26 Oh very

2:20:27 and they're the medium allows for extra victory points if there's a medium and a possessed troop in a region. So, you want to have possessed troops with your medium?

2:20:38 The most overpowered faction to date.

2:20:43 I know they're not all perfectly balanced. Yes. Not I don't I know they're not all perfectly balanced, Manny. Who's the most overpowered?

2:20:50 I know your kids have a have a perspective at least.

2:20:53 So, I will I'll tell you what my boys think.

2:20:55 They all believe the Uglan are the most powerful.

2:20:58 Yeah.

2:20:58 Hands down, everyone in my house thinks. And it's because my youngest son, who's 14 and he's six foot tall, he's the largest little kid in our house and he always plays them and he doesn't always win, but people get so mad when he plays that faction

2:21:17 and they're so mad that crazy feats, too. Yeah, they have the like resurrect 10 guys and then they have the

2:21:26 parasite and

2:21:27 Yeah, gather up to 10 horde and deploy them to any single region, then flip this part. And that's that's why I like them so much.

2:21:35 Yeah, that was the original feat when I first designed all those Roth factions. That was the first feat.

2:21:40 Oh, was it really? guilds. The guild's 10 kora, the oolan's 10 troops, the kota's um uh mutation where you can pop out three grizzled. You can like wear bear out with three guys on the board. Uh the ram run where you can move the ram around and shove people around. The Venas had their cauldron. They would gather cauldrons and pop them out and make extra guys. and the the Palanes had the the um iron iron will um feat. Those were all the very very first feat fat feats that I made for each one of the factions. So,

2:22:16 does [snorts] the community have a perspective on any of them being quote unquote broken?

2:22:21 I not 100%. I think what's fun is I'll I'll pop in and I'll see someone say, "Do you think X is super overpowered?" I think it is. And then a handful of people will jump in and be like, "Well, if you know how to deal with them, this is how you take care of that.

2:22:37 Get good." People hate that.

2:22:40 Yes, they do hate that. And I actually hate that, too. But people will definitely pop in and say, "Hey, here's the idea." Like, if you're going to fight against, you know, whatever faction, here's how you have to think about it differently. Because every faction feels broken when they do their cool thing. When you pop out a grizzled,

2:23:03 when you pop out a grizzled and it's at five health and everywhere it moves it chomps a guy and everywhere it attacks it destroys two. The grizzled feel really, really strong. They feel almost broken strong,

2:23:16 but they're one troop.

2:23:18 You just need to have two or three, four other troops in that region and then you starve the attack dice and now the grizzle does nothing,

2:23:26 right?

2:23:26 It the only thing it can do is leave the region to try to attack. Like any good war game, I mean, there's always a counter, but then you leave yourself open for something else, and it's a balance.

2:23:34 Exactly. Exactly. And so now, I think people generally considered they consider the runin to be the weakest faction. I think a lot of people will view the dwarves as the the the weakest of the factions. Um, I actually really enjoy playing them. Um, and I think that they're I think they got a pretty good bump in wreck. I think they got a nice

2:24:02 I think they got they got more powerful on that map.

2:24:06 Yep. Yep. I think they actually improved.

2:24:08 So that's the one to to bring over out of the gates and blindside your

2:24:12 I think it would be very fun. Like the Stoics cannot be attacked from outside the region. So you must

2:24:18 So they can't be damaged. You can shoot at them with boats, but they can't you can't damage them,

2:24:22 right?

2:24:23 And so, and they collect two victory points if they win a region. So, the stoic, his stock went up in wreck because boats can't hurt him and you can't hurt him from the region adjacent to him. You have to get into the region with the stoic. And if you do, then they have rams that can theoretically push your dudes back out again. And then, you know, I think it's they are a potentially finickier faction. They have more little things you have to be really conscious of while you're playing.

2:24:55 Um whereas the Kota trappers are they're traps. They're going to do damage, give you cor

2:25:03 and the Grizzled are just big bears that walk around smacking stuff, right? The Alden, I think, um, are maybe considered maybe mid-tier. Um, what I like about them is kind of the silliness of that faction. They're really serious, right? They're the high elves. But the idea of organized war has always been really hilarious to me that we will not shoot our arrows until we have an elegant on the field and we have a wind on the field. Then we are allowed to do what Theodin did and give them another volley. Right. I just I think that's always really hilarious when you have war games that are we will not just attack, we will only attack in an elegant fashion.

2:25:47 They have they have some sort of like moral uh high ground or in this case, you know, they need elegance.

2:25:54 Uh okay, so I've already used uh 30 minutes more than I promised you, so I want to get you out of here. But before we do that, what is the best dice thrown hero you've ever created? My favorite or the best?

2:26:09 Both, actually. That was going to be my follow-up.

2:26:12 My favorite has been and probably always will be the Barbarian.

2:26:16 I haven't played the Barbarian. That's That's an original, right?

2:26:18 That is my boy. That is season one.

2:26:22 He is the only level one hero in the game. He's the lowest complexity.

2:26:28 I love I love love love playing with the barbarian. I think I actually think there is an elegance to his design that people sleep on because all he all he does is hit hard.

2:26:42 Mhm.

2:26:42 But in a game where people have debuffs and crazy junk everywhere and they have all these mechanics and all these different things. How do you bring a sword to the battle and just beat down an opponent,

2:26:55 right?

2:26:55 It doesn't make him the most competitive. He doesn't win all the OP tournaments. Um, but it is one of the most satisfying ways for me to play. But again, that's very thematic. I If I'm going to play

2:27:12 If I'm going to play Diablo,

2:27:14 I'm going to probably use a barbarian.

2:27:16 And you just spin your whole time. The whole time

2:27:18 I'm going to I'm going to leap in and ground pound and then I'm going to spin my way through everything in the universe and I don't care. I'm gonna get big weapons and I'm gonna double hand sword and hammers and everywhere. Right.

2:27:31 So, you're not a mage that likes to sit back and and snipe?

2:27:34 No. No. Okay.

2:27:35 No. If I'm a mage, I'm a mage who jumps into the middle with my stick and I die and everyone's got to hear me.

2:27:40 Bring me back cuz I'm an idiot.

2:27:42 Yeah.

2:27:42 So,

2:27:44 um the best designed hero. Um, I will say I think one of the most interesting heroes we have made. [sighs] I think it might be the forge master in the the current Vanguard set. He has zero status effects. He mines his deck for ore in order to craft a gold helmet and then turn that to a diamond helmet and then to an ultimatum helmet.

2:28:18 Oh, that's cool.

2:28:19 And so and so as you're playing you every turn you can mine your deck. When you mine your deck you look at the top three cards and if there's ore there if there's an ore you get to take it and put it in your forge. And when you put it in after you it's in your forge, if you collect two gold or you can craft a helmet. And then if you get if you have a helmet plus two diamond, you can turn your gold helmet into a diamond helmet. Then if you have a diamond helmet and you find an ultimatum ore, now I can craft the ultimatium helmet. And so, but what's what I love about it is as you're mining, you're seeing your powerful cards come up and go away. Cuz when you mine, you don't get to keep them.

2:29:06 You get to you get to go, "Oh, there goes my not this time or my Twice as wild

2:29:11 right to the bottom of the deck."

2:29:14 Now, a lot of the highle competitive players have figured out like how to count their deck and so they're like tracking where cards are. I I don't do that. I just literally mind my deck because it's fun.

2:29:24 My brain doesn't work that way.

2:29:25 No, no. I I'm not going to process like that. But what I love about it is they're figuring out ways to do that. you know, whether it's exploiting or not, whatever. It's a mechanic. They can

2:29:35 Yeah,

2:29:36 if they want to mentally count their cards, go for it, man.

2:29:39 But that's that is all he does. He mines his deck and forges and forms.

2:29:45 What does the helmet give you? Just more defense.

2:29:47 The the helmet uh attacks back defensively.

2:29:51 Oh.

2:29:51 So, when you hit him, his helmet damages you back. But the other part that makes him, I think, very fun is he can craft things and give them to teammates. So, I can make a helmet and I can give it to you. So, now when we're playing adventures or missions or, you know, the co-ops, you can actually craft armor and you can craft a shield and a helmet and give it to your friends. And so, I think that's probably one of the most interesting things we've done. Um, we continue like there's characters that we have brainstormed that I think are really interesting as well that have yet to come out. Right. [snorts] You have to get more ornate as you go. Right.

2:30:33 Yes. And no. It's a It's a combination of becoming It's again, you're crafting burritos. We're making Mexican food.

2:30:40 That's true.

2:30:41 So, you're making tostadas and then we're going to make some tamales and then we're going to make a a nice pico and then we're going to make a a salsa verde and whatever, right? And you can continue to make new recipes, but in the end, the players have to feel as though that is a good combination of the existing ingredients. And so far, in my experience, we're we're succeeding. We're making unique new heroes. So, that's what I've been surprised with. I'm relatively new to Dice Throne, and I did not give it the credit of variety that I should have. My first set was this brand new set, the where the Headless Horseman Pale Lady and then and I saw I saw the variety there and then I was like, "Oh, okay. I I saw um at Barnes & Noble actually, the the Marvel, and I was just so um impressed at how they totally felt different. So now I'm like, "Oh, I got to get I got to get it all, but then my wife's going to kill me." So

2:31:42 that's the one thing about systems like that is just like, uh

2:31:46 Yes. Yes. I kind of feel like I need it all, but I don't. I don't at the same time.

2:31:50 Yeah. No, you don't. And I think one of the things we're doing with Dice now is moving to single heroes.

2:31:56 So,

2:31:56 I noticed that my FLGS just got a ton of singles.

2:32:00 Yes. And that's some people look at that and they're like, "Oh, Dyson's just trying to gouge us for more money or whatever."

2:32:07 I would say the opposite.

2:32:08 I That's That's my desire. That's our desire is that

2:32:12 when when Nate and I first created it, one of our visions was imagining a wall of heroes and an empty box

2:32:20 and you can just build your box your way.

2:32:23 Mhm.

2:32:23 And we are now finally 10 years in at a place where we can give you that power to do that. You do not need all the heroes. What I what I would rather you did was buy the heroes you want and play them and it might grow past the four or six. Maybe it goes to 10. Great. If it goes to 10, that's awesome. But don't I mean, feel free to buy as much as anybody wants. But some people feel like, well, I I need to complete it. I need I need to get all of it. And that's very encouraging, and it's amazing that the game is strong enough that people want that. But I would almost rather people are like, "Hey, these are the five I really like. These are the six, the eight, the whatever, the 10."

2:33:11 Um, and I also like that. Let's say you I introduce it to a new person. And I'm like, well, why don't you just just pick one hero? Like, pick your favorite. Oh, I really like the idea of a werewolf. Great. Play Pale Lady. You know, we'll I'll teach you. We'll play the game together. Now you have a hero. You can play Dice Throne, you can play Adventures, you can play, we can play randomizer, you know, we play a tournament in our house if we want. And all you had to do is spend 17 bucks and I'm the I'm the guy who owns all 45, but you own one and now you come over to my house with your favorite hero and play them,

2:33:48 right? I think there's something really empowering about that and I hope that that is what people feel moving forward is that there's a real sense of owning your heroes and making them yours, right?

2:34:01 I I I love the idea of of being able to pick and choose and build your own box because there are inevitably some that just aren't interesting for you if you buy the the full thing. Are all of them going to be um available as singles or only certain ones? The plan the plan is eventually they'll all be released in single.

2:34:19 Yep. Got it.

2:34:21 And can I So, the one thing that's frustrated me is I bought a set that doesn't bend, so I can't put them in the cool things. Can I get Can I

2:34:32 I thought I saw in Gen Con actually selling bendable boards or the folded boards.

2:34:37 So, there you can buy the the X-Men come in a battle chest,

2:34:43 eight hero battle chest that we sell. And now I wish I would have just bought the battle chest. Now I have FOMO.

2:34:52 Yes. So you can get them. That version was meant to be a retail version,

2:34:58 right? I got it at Barnes & Noble. Exactly. Exactly. So

2:35:03 Yep.

2:35:04 Yep. Uh okay. So that is all I have for you as this comes out. Tomorrow is the last day on the campaign, right?

2:35:11 I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

2:35:13 We're coming down to it. Yeah, I'm I'm going to get this out tomorrow morning. What else can people look out from you know that they're going to be seeing this in the next few weeks over the next few weeks at least?

2:35:25 Um I mean obviously Wreck is a big deal because it's it's going live right now which is great. Um

2:35:30 and there'll be late pledges as well even if they Yeah, there definitely will be late pledges. Um we Destroy have a Kickstarter in the fall and what we've announced is it's called Nexus. Um, that's the title of the next set. Um, and [clears throat] that one has a cyberpunky vibe, too, if you watch the video.

2:35:51 So, if you were to watch that video, you would probably get some cyberpunk vibes. Um, so there's that. And also, right now, I think it's late pledgeible. Um, but Dice Digital is running, right? And Dice Digital is coming. We have alpha testers right now playing it, beta testers.

2:36:10 What platforms is that going to be on? It will be iOS, Android, Steam, and Meta Quest.

2:36:18 So, over the next, what is it? It's August. So, over the next six months, that's going to make a lot of headway and a lot of growth. So, I think it's really our Nexus thing that's coming up. Wreck is hot and fun. And then, um, Dice Digital is a big deal that's that's coming.

2:36:35 Cool. Well, I'll throw links down there. I really appreciate you being here. Maybe we can do this again when you launch another project. I'd love to talk uh Dice Throne or whatever else you have coming up from uh Neon Knight. This has been great.

2:36:46 Sounds good. Thanks.

2:36:47 All right. Thanks, Manny. I appreciate it.

2:36:49 All right. Bye.

2:36:50 Bye.