Q&A: Shari Spiro - Vertical Integration, Piece By Piece

0:00 hey everybody eddo here and I am excited because I have sherry Sparrow on the line say hello sherry hey eduardo hi and if you don't know sherry is the founder and CEO of both add magic and breaking games and I have a lot of questions for you to just jump in can you could you sort of I like I like to do an origin story how you got into doing all this so I I'm pretty sure add magic came before breaking names how did you get into how did you start into the whole board game scene well I was in the ad specialties business hence the name ad magic and we used to make all kinds of strange things you know and all kinds of different materials steel metal magnets we even had a little jingle song I was gonna bring it with me today play it for you and it had like you know all these crazy things we could make you know everything from clothing to imprinted toilet paper I mean you name it right and so these shows that a company would Brent put their brand on or their logo in volume right like I want keychains or I want stickers or that could that kind of printing yeah exactly you know like the t-shirt you're wearing I mean it could be anything you know I used to let used to tell people I'd walk into a place in that go I can make that I can make that I can make that you know that type of thing it was fun and um I really like that business except um I like the manufacturing but I didn't like the nature of the clients in that business

1:30 because they were mostly there were mostly corporates in a hurry who were all about you know if you were high by a penny you know that value and you didn't get the job and it just you know I didn't feel there was any loyalty there wasn't really client development where you know you develop a relationship with the client and you stay with him a long time except for a rare few and so I was doing that I loved the printing part of it and I had actually started in a printing company where my my father-in-law owned it and he we made credit cards so it was kind of a cool way to start sheetfed vinyl we had we had three unions in there we had a screen printers Union we had a an offset printers Union and then we had Union up in the camera department so we had state this was a factory in Hillside New Jersey all right enormous enormous you know I must have been four hundred thousand square feet well florists you know like raised born you're a print print person I mean you you've gone through all these sorts of different manufacturing leading up to add magic and learning how back that that whole side of the business right yeah I started in like a factory so what happened was I was I was probably I want to say I was like maybe like 30 I don't remember it my exact age and I got the

3:00 job because I had been doing temp jobs you know I I had a baby and it's hard to work you know to get ever full-time job and so my father-in-law said I don't want to hire you because I don't want to be accused of nepotism so I'm gonna test you right okay so test me and they bring me in I do all kinds of psychological testing and then they do you know they do testing for you know see what my math abilities are and it's like going to school so they do this whole battery of tests and he brings me and he goes well you've done really well on the test we're gonna hire you and like yeah and I go in and I'm low man on the totem pole I'm answering the phones on the receptionist right everybody eighths me they don't even know me they hate me because you know they don't know what I'm gonna be like right sure then I worked my way up from receptionist and they go to customer service and so I'm learning about all the manufacturing so I would have to run into the plant to find out what the status of a job was sure so going on to the floor and I'm meeting with the Pressman and of course I was this young girl and there was a lot of older guys that were like Union printers and they were happy to teach me everything they know it was like gosh young girl I get to talk to her and explain it to her it's funny so I learned a lot about lamination and heat and how he affects she said vinyl and about hot stamping and what makes a good die for a good hot stamp and it was like a lot of basic stuff you would never learn um I learned all about the finishing Department how to die-cut in different shapes and different materials the difference between when you want to use silk-screening and offset printing and

4:32 then the different materials that you could use for those giant credit card make these giant silkscreen millions of little credit cards we did a hologram application I mean it was just we had a camera department we had really just the nuts and bolts of printing right I was just like the customer service person I worked my way up and then eventually I was running customer service and when the company actually went out of business I was in charge of all the jobs that were on the floor so there was like a lot of work on the floor and I had to move it I had to get them finished because even though the company went out of business the jobs had to get finished right right clients hanging you know most of them hadn't fully paid so what we did was I made an arrangement with the group that took over and they said can you get the jobs finished and I said yeah I can get the jobs finished so I made deals with different factories to finish the job that's basically how I started this part of the business and then so I I wound up being an ad specialties person you know doing printing and then I one day I printed some playing cards and playing cards came across my desk and I thought wow what could be easier than a rectangle you know it's just a I had no idea what I was getting into what could be easier than a rectangle so for a long time we just did playing cards right and I you know I rebuilt my site to be a playing card site and and that got really high in Google and so you know when the gut when the guy's four cards against humanity' right googled custom playing cards they found that's how I found it right when I look at ad magic on my

6:03 radar that's when when you guys blow up with cards against humanity' is that is that is that true or that's just when I noticed is that really where you guys know that's when I really walked into this space because I had been in this other you know world and I liked it but I didn't love it and so and when I went to my first pax I was just like oh this is my job laughs and you know there's games I'm gonna be playing games all the time and uh and you know these guys were they were hysterical cards against humanity' it's just you know they're some of the funniest people I've ever met yeah yeah so just being able to laugh as part my job and you know make this incredible game that was uh it was really a blessing because it you know I loved the printing part of what I did but I didn't like the clients and then I and I wound up the great clients you know they're just great people and that was how I entered the space well yeah III think people game games are awesome awesome as well I'm and I have to say you when you're going through all the nuts and bolts little pieces of learning all the parts of printing that's an area like where you know as a small indie developer publisher you know you always want to have somebody that understands all of that right understands the difference between this type of quality and this type of quality and what the given takes and so in videogames I came up through QA so coming up through QA was an area where I had all that ingrained knowledge but in manufacturing and board games it's just sort of you like try to be

7:34 look at comparisons but I can never like have an articulate conversation so one day I'm gonna get an internship in a factory and learn some stuff about printing but so you do cards against humanity and but you're still ad magic at that time you you haven't made this little leap into breaking games what was that transition about how did you then say you know what I want to sort of be a publisher instead of just being a printer like what was that thought process so what actually happened was you know I I did tabletop deathmatch remember that and so I that was like yeah that threw me right in the middle of you know learning so many things about games that it was fascinating and then max time can actually said to me in a conversation I remember I was parked on the side of the road talking to him because I usually tried to pull over when I talk and yes I just like to put that out there I pull over when I talk and he said to me you know there's really a space for somebody like you you know to help indie developers and so my my initial focus was to help indie developers print their games but then what happened was these indie developers were getting stuck with games like they they would print their games and then the games you just sit in their garage so I said well I'm gonna go to Gen Con to try to get more print clients why don't you bring your game with us to GenCon and we'll all share my booth yeah no you couldn't you guys can sell your game so I brought I don't five or six designers with me the first year and they set their games up on a table

9:04 and you know buddy sold their games I think I don't even think we had a central sales portal at that point you know I mean I think just sell whatever they just collected their own money they were able to come and and we helped move some I remember there was a u-haul or something we have a box truck so I think we might have had the box truck just a lot of manual moving I remember that first year I was in storage spaces for people get you know physically helping them load their stuff onto trucks and a lot of a lot of engines you're describing a real problem a lot of indie developers for one reason or another on their first game they print too many or they you know they think distribution is gonna pick them up and they don't or they don't have a partnership and this like garage full of game problem is a real problem yeah garage is a really bad place to store a game you know I mean people have them in their trunks and then they they I'll never forget this one client I don't remember the name of them but they I wouldn't say anyway but they called me up they had been storing the games in their trunk and they were wondering why they were starting to fall apart and I'm like how long have they been in the trunk and out where do you live Arizona you know I was like wait a minute you can't the glues gonna melt you know maybe think it's gonna disintegrate so it's kind of funny so we started paying attention to where people were shipping their games you know because I said you know guys you can't ship it to your garage it's not a good idea unless it's a climate-controlled garage you're gonna put it in your house that's fine you know but once we make the games we don't

10:34 want them to put it in a place that's not semi temperature control because they'll get destroyed and so I guess my first one and I really got involved with well there were a lot of them in the beginning but the the one that really put me over the edge was poop because I was I was a boston fig and i was showing my games you know that i'd printed and poop was laying on the table and about 20 different people came up and said hey can i buy that game you know and i'm like yeah i can give you the you know email address of the designer and you can email him in he'll sell it to you right so like he addresses later I call blaze up and I said blaze you know I think maybe I should be publishing who and he said what does that mean and I said I really have no idea all I know is that people want to buy it and I'm tired of giving out your email address so we should probably you know come up with some sort of enough you know an arrangement so he and I came up with it was my first publishing arrangement my first publishing deal and he said and I said to me you know I really don't know what I'm doing right and he said you said yeah yeah I know we'll figure it out and I'm like okay we'll figure it out so I had no idea what I was doing I had hired a Aaron Demark who and I said to him so the first year we don't know what we're doing that's you just got to tell everybody you know we're gonna do our best but this is our first year you know we're gonna do the best we can we're gonna go to trade shows but we really don't know what we're doing right so we screwed up a couple of things nothing major like a little like reads how to deal with certain retail people like certain distributors and things so I think we had a couple of distributors

12:05 aggravated and that was the first year by the third year so in 30 so what one thing you know just a couple things to add because just add some color to the conversation in terms of hat my experience of working with you and and interacting with you you know I've always been impressed and I see it a lot in the startup business no not in that as much necessarily in the board game business but I see it there as well where yabo you've always struck me as somebody who's very much about like let's do it like i the the logistics don't stop you from saying you want to do something right this sort of how's it gonna happen what's going to be how what do you you absolutely do all that stuff but that initial like let's do it initiative initiative is through the roof and as I mean I remember all this happening and I remember that booth when they were all just standing there all doing their own thing and you know and and we had talked about a game or two here there but it was always sort of like sure what how's it gonna work but it's sort of you know and I think that's it's been really fun to watch that attitude because again a lot of other publishers who are in the space or walk down in the space are much more like no here's the process here's what it is and they're off putting where generally speaking I feel like you're there very positive and and and and momentum driven versus again that sort of like no here's the format here's the approach here the restrictions that's not possible but okay so anyway so your first year you don't know what you're doing well I'd like to I'd like to expand upon that a little bit so my new blog is about my

13:38 new blog post is about trying to mix being an entrepreneur which is what I technically am because tech entrepreneurs have that come on let's do it we have no idea what we're doing let's go do it and that's what make made me a good match for cards against humanity' because they would say ok we wanna we need you to get some and cows and like ok oh somehow right you know and and and be like on board for doing crazy stuff right you have to have that mindset you know before you get involved with that because otherwise you're going to be intimidated if you get a new razor with our game how are we gonna do that right that's the only thing we're not gonna do you know so uh yeah we know one that we don't want to condone shaving absolutely not don't want to keep shaving we believe in facial hair by that but you know what I'm saying you gotta have that go-get-'em attitude and I do still have that I am finding though that you know as the organization becomes a real organization and there are more people involved that I have to step into the role of a CEO more than the entrepreneur so I have to mix it I mean I have to be both because I still do my entrepreneur job for all my clients you know I'm still doing you know how do we make it what are we gonna make oh my god that's crazy how we're gonna do that you know like we've got crazy stuff coming out now so that has not stopped the organizational part of it though forces

15:09 need to do things like have regular meetings you know talk to people why I just talk to them I mean I always go around everybody and talk to them because that's my thing I want to get you know I want to make sure but he's got what they need but you know it's just a little bit more structured and I think that's what happens a lot of the publishers that you're talking about they're very structured they have a very clear path to where they want to go now on one side of our business on our I decided we have a very clear path you know I mean Raisa tribes was a very deliberate move on our part yes because rise of tribes is a you know it not only did it bring us amazing credibility which I don't know that we need credibility more than we need a good game but it's a nice thing to have credibility yet good well you know what I'm saying it's the company that made poop right well poop is a great game but you know sometimes if you're a strategy player you're playing a lot of big strategy games you're gonna like poo poo poo tribes and then you say oh okay this is a real time and it's transitioning yeah it's like yes perhaps a real company as it is a hobby board game manufacture right you're sort of because you've been mass-market right you've made we're doing we're doing both we can't stop like Sparkle kitty I thank you for putting that up there Sparkle Kitty's mass market there's no doubt about it but it's also a crossover strategy game so my goal is really just to make games that I can play you know I'm saying it's my kind of player is a

16:41 player who may not be able to devote three hours or you know ten years to master a game I wouldn't I want to be able to get into the game right away and then I want to get better at it every time I play it well yeah I mean I think that's a those are some great games um and okay so just in that sort of advice category and thinking through the business talking about being an entrepreneur but the the this transition the small small scrappy to sort of more formal business growth where you have to you're bringing on a team you can't just run off in every direction all the time you got to bring it bring the herd with you and you have you know all those things that change as somebody who's transitioned right or is in the process of transitioning your business or in growing it you know what kind of advice would you give to people to be smart about that what have you sort of learned as you've done it because I guess I mean you've you've clearly been a growing business for some time but perhaps it was more one you know why why is the growth now requiring more hands from you and more you know letting your team blossom versus when ad magic was blowing up with cards against humanity' what's the difference the difference is that I've surrounded myself with people that really love what they do and I love working with them so that's the key like you really have to find the right people and you can't push that you know sometimes people would say to me we need another person we need another person and I would say you know what when the time is right we'll get another person

18:12 but we can't just get another person for the sake of you know getting another person you can't do it and it's it's almost like a it's not an organic growth exactly but it's a it's as close to an organic as you can have right because as things change people come in and once people start working for me they very rarely stop so I mean that's a pretty good thing you know you want it you want people to stay because if they don't stay they're not accomplishing their dream you know because people people's dream the people's dreams are not to work for me okay I may be a great employer but they didn't start out in this life going oh when I go into the workforce I want to work for sherry Sphero because that is really my goal in life right it doesn't work that way they may say I'm thinking of it they may say they may want to work with me now because I've done some cool stuff and they want it you know they want to you know know a little bit more about that and learn some things and that's fine but the truth is that's not enough you know once you get to know me and you pass that whole thing you know then what you have to have a reason for working right so your reason for working is to make games that you develop and then to take them into the marketplace and then maybe somebody else like Peter who is not ever gonna finish what the food but maybe when he hears me say that he'll finish it people like crazy yeah he keeps himself busy that's the whole thing uh you know he's he's given

19:43 parameters and he can choose how busy he wants to be but the truth is he loves what he does so he's driven like I am and we're just all driven from inside because we have this great opportunity to do all this great stuff so let's do it while we can that's kind of where it's at you got to do what you can I mean I've traveled for three years because I'm like hey I can do it let's do it now and actually just it's sort of non sequitur a little bit but one of the things I believe and this is my impression from Peter which you know may or may not be accurate is that you've sort of started to pull back from as many trade shows as you were going go me personally personally is that part of giving them more space a part of you just wanting a better quality of life and not traveling around the country well so part of it was I have to pay attention to systems in the business ok that's my job that's what I mean about transitioning a little to be more of a CEO and less of an entrepreneur but I'm still gonna maintain both but a little bit more attention to the CEO part because we have some pretty interesting you know things that are happening that require more systems attention like you know we're in target that's a big system we're handling it in-house most people job that out we don't we do everything in-house I mean I just we bought we closed on a warehouse building in January but we had been in there since last July so we've got this like 30,000 square foot and we've got 15,000 square foot warehouse that holds probably like 800 900 pallets right so we've got an enormous space and we

21:15 needed that once we got involved with mass market the way we did right because we have to handle the relabeling and there's a lot that goes on when you go into mass so those systems require attention and we're not stopping you know now we're important snow boom we're gonna go into Walmart you know I mean more things are happening more deals are coming up different kinds now that I know mass market it's kind of hard to stop you know I want to meet the people of Bed Bath & Beyond to be on game in there you know non-traditional marketing let's take one you know you've got a gem game let's put it in a jewelry store I don't think so I mean I'm all about they I don't believe that games have to be sold only through your friendly local game store right right still a really important focus of our business matter of fact that's another thing that requires a lot of attention now we have to grow yeah sector so to the extent you're comfortable saying and for the for everyone listening that's an that's a traditional phone or is that your cell phone no that's my cell phone oh okay special rings yeah yeah Wow no how big is AD magic like personal like staffing wise like how big of a company is that when you think of all those pieces well so add magic and braking games share staff okay that's very important we don't run separate completely separate operations except at the warehouse and print and play so we have you know print and play and then we

22:46 have the warehouse then we have headquarters so together there are like in headquarters and the warehouse I want to say there's between 22 and 25 people because we have now we have workers that come in just to do warehouse jobs so that's that's that and then in print the play I think he's got I mean there's like three full timers but I think he's got like 14 people that he rotates out there I'd have and that's another thing I haven't really micromanage print and play but we're gonna put a lot of attention on printing place in these there's a lot of things that Andrew needs that I haven't had time to give them you know I mean I've given him machines and stuff but I mean systems wise he needs a better system we need a better website on print and player sure and what I'm saying on print and play that is so easy that you upload your files and then those same files can be used for mass production so if you go from play to China files are ready right well that's pretty cool yes that's what that was my whole goal to begin walk but a lot of time sure and that's a that's a superpower that you have that say a game crafter doesn't write because they they can only sort of end their end line is at print versus printed play sort of scale versus saying no if you do your prototypes get it ready and then hit the button and when you say you want 5,000 copies we'll get you them from China and they'll be this super cheap price or whatever so that's yeah what the main reason I got you know involved with Andrew and the reason why we wound up you know owning print and play was because I wanted that straight

24:17 line to production but I also realize that you need the prototypes and game crafter I love their work but crafter uses a different kind of file system so I you know when I was getting their files and having to convert color and I was running into problems and I said you know we need to control this from the beginning and it's been a lot better yeah and and for sure you you know any any whenever whoever I use for just getting prototypes done there's always a second process to say okay now we're going to go manufacture it now we have to do the files this way set them up there over again over again so okay so you talked about so you said about 24 25 and then 15 and then did that include the sort of breaking great games crew or is that another bundle of people so well-well breaking games isn't in that mix right but then we also have Peter and Astrid and he's got another helper in California so we have offices in in California now it what we've had them in Burbank couldn't think of a name in town and we just expanded Peters office by the way he's got a new place Bay where are you located i I'm up in the Bay Area so yeah yeah well he's got a new playroom Oh her games to have like you know groups of people in they got like a whole game name so um yeah believe me if I could afford like you know a bigger place in Burbank or in LA I'd get it but it's prices are so expensive entrepreneurs it's crazy so we just renting a little office and

25:49 then we got we were lucky that another little office opened up and so be the two of them combined it's quite a nice sized space well and so I mean you're a pretty big operation when it comes to not you know the grand scheme of the world but when it comes to the board game space I mean that's up there with larger publishers and obviously it you it's it's it's because you're spanning all of these different parts of it parts of the market I mean you you almost have a vertical stack you're you're you're you're just about there well we are now with the warehouse and we're there there's we have a warehouse so what else is there so here's here's how it goes do you come up with a game you come to me we prototype it you're ready to go you kick-started you kick-started not me I don't want it was fun no it was fun doing rise of tribes but you know it's it that was a lot of it right it takes a lot of time but that was a excellent Kristen Peter did a really good job on that with you and I even adding Chris right and then we have two guys in Mexico that are branding an illustration teaming Wes and Marshall I don't know if you ever met them they come to shows once in a while too I might you might have met Wes and he loves it right so he's an illustrator from outside the industry he does our corporate branding basically look at the company the look of the of the tradeshow signs you know all of that stuff our ads you know the little static cling things you see at conventions he does all of that and he loves it too so he and I you know whenever sin he sends me our that's like Christmas morning open an email from Wes it's like Christmas for name like Oh what arts gonna be in here today you know so that's my love and it

27:20 carries over right and so and so you're giving this list if the Kickstarter the Kickstarter is done then you move to manufacturing and then you guys take it through and so do you but you do use distributors hobby like hobby so Peters so here's what we do so I'm Luke crane very smart man from Kickstarter when I was first getting into publishing I said so what do I do I mean what channels do I go through and he said you go through all of them all of them don't limit yourself I'm like okay you know so initially I thought it was gonna be okay you make the game put it in distribution but that's really not how it works because not every game is right for distribution so some go into distribution so we have games and Alliance some go into stores so they go into Target or Barnes and Noble some go on to special online retailers that we trust some go to Australia some go to the UK now we're getting some go to Canada now we're getting more heavily involved in Germany so I'm I'm going to Germany I'm going to Essen and no no it's my I think it's my third time but I we're developing some strategic partnerships over in Germany and then I'm even looking at manufacturing I've been doing some manufacturing test manufacturing over in Europe because um we want to start to localize and we may be even working a little bit with Asmoday I mean we're just trying a little bit of everything it depends on what's right for the game so I don't have a really strict

28:50 a formula for distribution because each game is different you know I'm saying like I said herbaceous herbaceous I mean how many health food stores did did you know did you get that's who I'd be copy like health food stores yeah you know so I'm all about looking at it and saying okay well what where can we put it right where can we put it who's right for it you know and then we open that channel sometimes it takes a year to open that channel sometimes you could track down a buyer for a year you know and then they'll be like yeah we're you know and then sometimes it takes a couple of months where somebody's directed to you through a client a client will say hey game of phones brought us a lot of clients because they would say hey so-and-so is interested in our game they contacted us they'll bring them to us because we're their publisher but they're still in you know so it's a different some of our people aren't indeed they don't want to control their own game some people are so and so alright so I think people listening it'll be fascinating to sort of see the sort of expands and different places that you're operating in and how you're taking on again that whole stack the whole the whole vertical which would get a lot you know I had a great interview with with Scott from renegade games and they're growing but you know they're still you know you know just working on sort of more traditional channels and localization and expanding at different places but more in that traditional publishing but since you guys have the manufacturing wing and the desire to drive into online or direct retail or

30:21 new channels and that whole conversation you know it's just it's this expansive thing so my question for you is what so where are you going like what are you in some ways it seems like your your branding is is begin becoming stronger and more clear but when you think of your company what you know in five years where do you want to be what's how is it moving or is it just watching watch and see yeah we just want to keep pushing Hasbro off the shelves and you know making more room for the cool games I mean that's really it it's not that I have a personal vendetta against Hasbro it's just you know you know it's just that you know we have to have a goal right so our goal is to but that's a real goal really that's in a very it's a real answer yeah it's a real goal I don't know if that's really the right answer the right answer is really that you know I joke about it because you know Hasbro's the big boy right it's like Big Brother right and you want the Indies to come through the people with the really clever ideas that you know never really make that much money from a behemoth you know if you've got to be heme at the really really big company they can only afford to pay you know small royalties to designers you know what I'm saying so even if you've got a multi-million selling game while you're probably doing pretty well you know it's still questionable whether or not you're full time into making games right I mean I I don't know the answer to that how many of the guys are I think some of the guys with the really big games are full-time I know and they make enough money off of those sales but we try to support a middle tier so that smaller designers

31:52 can still you know do what they want to do which is full-time design and maybe it's a little bit idealistic it's so far it's been pretty good you know because we are expanding but I am a little bit of an idealist when it comes to certain things and that's where I have to temper my idealism you know sometimes you have to I mean I'm still saving Kickstarter's I had committed to saving a couple of people who were you know just brutally gonna fail they were never gonna deliver their game and and I have a last rescue I'm calling it I'm not gonna tell you what it is because I don't want to put that on the kind of game that I'm on my last rescue because I'm telling you right now I'm not doing any more rescues but you know I rescued a few games that felt good but it also taught me that I have to really educate people you know they often call before they go in you know there's a lot of dangerous things can go wrong yeah I mean again not to not to name anybody but just right now there's a Kickstarter from a weathered dude and you know I reviewed their games in the past and assist in the past at this point they went on their own and that was not that I owned it but just sort of like they didn't ask me for my opinion along the way and they don't have any but then it's floundering and I you know I looked at the page and as I came in you want some feedback because all this is sort of not up to snuff anymore and you just say you sort of just came into this thinking like you could do whatever and expect to win and you really have it and I think people you know you can't you can't be it's

33:24 it's hard every time it never gets 18 so it's a challenge Kickstarter was my biggest fear and that's why I'm first the first Kickstarter was gonna be the expansion for letter tycoon and that just didn't happen there was a lot of reasons why it didn't and so then we decided to do rise the tribes instead it and those guys you know the amount of work is it's crazy and then just even in the morning I put the I used to say chi-ching chi-ching cuz you see the the things coming in on your iPad every morning you see a whole bunch of you know payments coming right and and I said even that was overwhelming I took a picture of it posted about it because I don't think people normally see that I mean unless you're the name behind the Kickstarter you don't get to see that the thousand the constant emails come on I've seen emails where somebody just paid sixty six dollars and seventy dollars and for me it wasn't that overwhelming because I know that I'm gonna be able to manufacture the game but for somebody who's got somebody else who says yeah I'm gonna take care of it for you and it's not them yeah that has to be daunting yeah you know it is it is and and and so so you get so you hope you've already you're starting to elbow has pro already right you you have every time I go to Target you have more real estate right right now right now we have a ton of real estate there right now there's an end cap and and can no and you have that thing the cards against humanity' thing with the that I don't know the old guy saying I'm the sponsor

34:55 I don't know what that ad campaigns about but I'm sure the cards against humanity' guys know what that's about but uh I just read that as I gotta get it but I just look at though walking but yeah that's it I don't think you're supposed to get it's pretty funny um yeah it's weird but so I'm awesome and so I guess for people listening presumably as a publisher just because a lot of the people who watch these videos are some industry folk but a lot of Kickstarter creators getting it you know are you just open to solicitations I think what's your how do you approach new indie you know creators who want breaking games attention what's what do you usually expect to see what's the Avenue well we have a submissions process so um the guys out in California usually take the submissions and test the game sometimes people give them me and then I mean I do have an entire you know back office conference room I have like a whole wall full of prototypes from people which I still go through you know I I every couple of days I'll go look through it make sure that you know I've you know tested something or gotten back to somebody it's overwhelming but that we do have a process now and we you know we're getting booked out like other companies are you know we've got a lot going on but we still have that flexibility we're a feet or something falls in our lap and we want to make it we can make it I'm a Peter found one a couple of weeks ago he just fell in love with and he wanted it and I was like how bad do you want it I really want it okay let's do it you know because I tried that's it sir

36:26 let's do it whatever it Sparkle kidding man that thing came out really fast yeah sparkle kitty beat a lot of games out because it's almost like games have a life of their own they're like songs you know and if they're produced the right way they're gonna be a hit right and and some songs are just you know filler songs you know I mean well I actually I felt that way about herbaceous in that a lot of games take a lot of time to develop and then play and manufacture but with herbaceous it was like the art was there I saw it it was from bathroom was gorgeous and I was like let's get a game and then I approached Steve with it and he was interested in he you know he designed it and like I don't want to under understand it but like maybe a month maybe two like you just sort of put it together and it worked and then I I had a good delay on another Kickstarter so like I then put it in a Kickstarter slot so like it's sort of I I think from like concept to execution was maybe three four months maybe five I'd have to look again but it was compared to something like liftoff which was years right like right and fortunately or like it's sort of it's both exciting and depressing it's my best-selling game anyway so it's sort of like it doesn't necessarily pay to to put all that effort in but but anyway but it's no see that you that's a dilemma you as a designer are always going to face right but when it's that easy you're so lucky you know what I mean you're so lucky because it's a great game and like you said there was no pain

37:56 you know that no pain part is the nice part okay that what it also takes any part of that is is the experience you get from doing games and doing previous ones and knowing right the fact that I had these people I could collaborate with put it together get it to a Kickstarter and get it into manufacturing very quickly like those are all things you're not going to be able to do if it's your first create Kickstarter right so it's a it's a combination of skills and opportunity but anyway we're at about 30 minutes so it's been it's been a nice it's been a nice long chat I feel like I'm always in a little ah at how much you guys are doing over at breaking games and add magic and this sort of scope of it all but it's pretty awesome and III definitely speaking for all India appreciate you guys still sort of wanting to put the indie game on the shelf with other stuff too but but keeping it that sort of fresh and new not just hey here's an IP here's the game we can put with the IP pump it out type of type of approach that and nothing wrong with not to say that there's anything wrong with it hazards doing but not that mass-market big Brit you know you know I was like I said I was joking about them only because they're the ones to attack am I gonna you know pick on but I mean look some of their IP is great you know and that's why it sells millions and millions and millions and millions of pieces so you know there's a reason why things are evergreen and I guess you know just if you want a way to kind of finish up I mean what we're looking for as a publisher is an evergreen game you know

39:27 something that is gonna be around for a long long time and if we can't figure out a way to make it evergreen or we can't figure out a way to sell it in the end we're only gonna walk away grudgingly you know I'm saying somebody else because we really want to make them work but um you know in the end the ones that are meant to be like herbaceous will be if they have a life of their own they really do sound corny but I've watched it happen over and over again for sure for sure well sure thanks for for being hopefully this was interesting is certainly interesting for me so I always have that mate but thanks and thanks everyone for watching bye-bye