Board Game Complexity Weight Rating is Broken.

0:07 hello and welcome to board stupid my name is Wayne and I'm Matt and sometimes I just feel the weight of the world on my shoulders oh yes I can feel it I can feel it and you know what else makes me feel the weight what the weight of board game complexity weight o yes are you talking one that those number next to the ratings on BGG yeah yeah the one that tells you how heavy a game is that one to five thing that yeah that a lot of people like I don't really know what what it is so yeah well we're going to dig into that because we think it's pretty busted quite broken quite broken but before we actually start talking about the spicy content yeah um let's see the Subscribe button hit the Subscribe button before we get into our spicy topic of the day because if you hit that button you'll be every time we come up with a new video for you every single time sing we push out a lot of content for you guys so yeah yeah absolutely hit that button everyone's happy and it makes us know that feel like we know that you care yeah exactly and since we know that you care we got a little gift for you a 10% discount on the into the website so if you're looking for some spicy clothing some nice t-shirts yeah and casual or you need to do your new wardrobe for the summer either for going out to the beach or to the office the into the a.m is got

1:38 everything that you can even imagine and they got so many good quality t-shirts and graphic t-shirts and all that stuff definitely check the website cuz they got a lot they coming out with new design all the time the fit is well fit is excellent the quality is great the print is wonderful and you look you look good mate exactly looking real nice yeah so as we say you should go and treat yourself treat yourself you dig in that let's get spicy yes so Matt let's start by telling the people what board game complexity weight is at least in the world of the board game Bubble which for the most part exists and resides on the internet on board game geek on B Game Geek that is a a fantastic resource for all Bard game knowledge is the resource is IMDb games you use it every day I use it every day all our friends there Bard games they use it like very and it's very much the the central point of where you can find a lot of information about basically any b game ever existed yeah absolutely if you like movies you go to IMDb to find out about the movies if you like board games you go to board game gek to find out all about that board game the designer the game the publisher whatever there's information in there gallore yes and one of the things bits of information if you look for a game will be the board game weight and the weight is on the top right corner and it is a

3:09 number between 1 and five but with a decimal point so between 1.2 uh and and 5.0 yeah and generally it's used to describe how complicated how complex the game is for example let's do like a silly one if you got um Uno it's probably a one 1 something 1.0 well if you go to something like um I don't knows on mars or Mage night or doors goes up to like a between 4.5 4.9 like they're very very complex however is what we were discussing the other day like that is just a a number that doesn't really describe the complexity of the game no not very well we think I think board game gag tries to do a job of explaining what a each of their numbers means for example between 1 and 1.5 they're saying they're very light games very easy to learn suitable for beginners and casual gamers and I think that's fair fair enough fair enough um and then at the top end of the scale they're saying that they're very heavy games with highly complex challenging uh games that typically suited for enthusiasts who enjoy very deep intricate gameplay I think that's kind of fair enough but also I've got problems with that as well I think I think I think the two extremes

4:40 of of this scale that is is based on the the rule complexity uh the Strategic depth the length of the play the interaction between players there's a there's a lot of components that form this number and that's why I think that is broken too many things just going down one number but the two extremes are kind of like Get because you you go there it's like all right um Twilight Imperium is uh over four fair enough okay um and uh I don't know Monopoly probably is a 1.5 or some or something like that so the two extremes are you you get the idea I just like between the 1.5 and the 4.5 I think is a big match yeah and if you start looking in the middle of the scale anything between like a two and a three or or even like a 1.9 and a two yeah all of those games in between a 1.9 and two are vastly broadly different and with different levels in my opinion of complexity I think what board game fails to do is adequately split out its language properly cuz I don't think a game that is deep is necessarily a complicated game yeah yeah yeah yeah and at the same time a highly strategic game doesn't need to be that complex because otherwise something like chess is was it it's a five I don't know I mean it's

6:12 it's probably the most like deep game that you you can imagine something like that so yeah but I think CH on bgd is like a 3.8 or something yeah yeah but that it's because the rules are simple but then the depth of the game the strategy of the game is probably the highest one other it's not it would have not been played for hundred of years right I think um uh the was it the Chinese or Asian history go very heavy rated on on BGG that's because you can spend a long time thinking about your turns but that's not it's not a complicated game no yeah exactly so it's it's very much this this division about what what is what is a complex game what is a complicated game what is a very deep game what is a light game what is a a family game what what do these mean properly and I don't think that uh the scale as it is and at least in the definitions that we've seen adequately does a good enough job of it I think it loses it loses it's beginning to lose meaning for me especially as I've gotten longer in the board game hobby I'm starting to look at board games less about okay is this a particularly heavy weighted game and more about okay how easy can I absorb this and then teach it again but do you think is it because well we play a lot of games all the time so we we are very much like reading Rule books probably couple of every week um do you think that that is

7:42 influencing you saying that a game is more or less complex because a lot of games we know they just recy not recycling but they use mechanics that have been used in all the games so a lot of time you will be like oh this part of the RO book is like that game and the the movement is like this game and the fighting is like the other game they just put I see what you mean yeah I think and you are very used to those three type of rules someone else is just mixing them together you like all right yeah that's similar to this that's similar to that I think it's I would rate a more complex game in terms of being harder for me to then explain to someone else right so that's a very good point so like if I can't explain it to you very easily then I think that's probably going to be quite complicated whether You' played games before or not I think I should be able to be able to break down those rules for you and so you can understand it if that's going to be a challenge then the game is probably quite complicated yeah right and I think you know I consider myself a pretty good teacher of board games you are I think you are a very he a very good teacher yeah so I think if I'm failing to do that then the game is going to be quite complicated and require some research yes so do you think then um CU I always got this rules if if Mom can play this game is probably very low on the scale and the mum rule yeah the mum rule so there is a mom thresold that um under that under that threshold um is is

9:12 a very simple game okay um but and in that category I can include you like uh anything that goes from C names yeah uh to AO uh Ticket to Ride um uh what's the other one um the sh um oh God a few of them um there there are a few games that I think yeah exactly and I think that aul is way more complicated and more more way more strategic than something like um Uno or something like or even Cascadia that was the the games I was think uh and everything above that is cons I consider to be like above mom threshold that that is I love it a more complex game love the M threshold and then there is the next the ultimate threshold is I read the rule book and I'm like I did I get it I don't and there are a few games it might be it might just be that the rules are badly written but that's not what you're referring to what you're referring to is a very difficult book yeah yeah yeah yeah with maybe lots of keywords and interactions between rules I remember the first time that um I played with my girlfriend Mage Knight she was explaining me the game and I was

10:39 like it's just like it play games all the time but sometimes like the the rules don't stay or they yeah don't make sense at the first rush I yeah it's a problem and I think also with things like a rating system especially a public one it's going to be heavily subjective right so even though you have these sort of broad is definitions on bgg's website people just assign whatever they want to oh I think that's a five and they'll rate it a five oh I think that's a one and I'll I'll rate it once it's a public rating system mean so it's going to be heavily subjective it will be informed by as you say your past experience with games or not it be a part experience with similar games or not so if I played a similar games to this point I'm like ah it's only a 2.5 whatever yeah but you know Joe Vlogs down the road might be I've never played something like this this is a 5.0 I've it's impossible to learn do you actually go there the B and I have rated games yeah I rate my I always rate what I think of a game if I own it yeah so I give it like an overall rating okay but the complexity rating I typically don't do I used to maybe here and there but I don't do it anymore I think that is such a subjective things you can't really it's even if they've got guidance there the guidance I don't think is useful enough because like I said it conflates language I don't think deep games are necessarily complex no I don't think complex games actually are deep sometimes they can't be wide and hard to learn but the Strategic depth is actually not massively valuable and really what you're doing is spending time exploring the systems which isn't bad yeah it doesn't mean it's deep no

12:10 you just like got a lot of options and a lot of like moving Parts lot options lots of moving Parts doesn't mean there depth in the strategy there yeah um so yeah let's just recap a little bit we talked about maybe it's useful inine the extremes think maybe the language is being conflated a little bit that it's heavily subjective and that once we get into the center of those ratings it starts to lose its value and I don't think it adequately accounts let me move on to this next um uh Point Matt don't think it adly accounts for width depth and complexity which I think are three different things yeah they two yeah we we speak about this like quite often those are three very different things yes cuz the the number of rules that that you have in a game doesn't make you like wide or deep necessarily right what doesn't make it if some of the games that we love you just said one rules in the game but it's so deep that yeah like for days EXA like for example take r r is be in game it's just got one mechanics one and one and a half mechanics uh but you could play like that for hours and hours days and days because it's really beautifully beautifully deep same with something like El Grande yes which is hasn't got many mechanisms most just area majority and some cards which have which just play with the area majority but my gosh the value of strategic depth in that game is unbelievable yeah but I don't think for example something like um

13:43 endless winter paleo Americans is is deeper than that not at all it's a much shallower game it is way wider it's way wider much and broader wider and there's a lot of things that you need to keep an eye on but yeah but those things they don't go too much in into that same with something like sorry but like Ros Cava or or A Feast for Odin we you just have lots of things to do and is it necessarily really is it any deeper than raw or El Grande I don't knowbly so probably not now that's why yeah this this this idea that be when we review games and stuff that we always speak about like the the width and the depth of the game so to me a complex game be at the same time deep and and and Broad wide and probably difficult to learn and understand because again I think that third part of the triangle there we talked about breadth or or width and then depth the third part of the triangle is complexity yeah and complicated games just have lots of rules yes right it might be a simple board it might be not many pieces but there might be a rule book this thing yeah yeah that's a complicated game that isn't wide or deep yeah exactly or you got some of the abstract games it takes like way more to to understand do you remember when we played portals the it's it's very nice game it's very abstract and uh there are you need to check your

15:13 board the the central one to the right one to the left yeah and remember that if you move something from the right you need to go to the left it's not per se too complicated once you you get into the Rhythm but it is complicated to explain and learn got like considering the just say I don't think like in terms of like the weight the game is very heavy but it is a complicated game cuz it's weird it's a hard one to explain yeah it's hard to explain it's hard another example I the rules I think Scout is one of my favorite card games ever I think probably my favorite card game ever I don't think do a few times this go buy Scout it's like 15 pounds you'll love it but it's like it is a game that is really fun mhm it is not wide right it's very it's narrow it's one it's it's um hand management right hand management set collection um and you're trying to get rid of all your cards like lading I think is what it called um it's not depth maybe a bit deeper than wide has some depth to it it's interesting strategic decisions right but explaining that game where you're going yeah is weird compc something like that is a filler games for ball Gamers it's not a filler game that you take out anybody you can but it's you're going to end up hitting the complicated hurdle where you might go that Mom trold you going you go wait a minute actually this is how the guards work and actually you can only pick from this side to that side and you can put them either order and but they have to stay in the same

16:44 you I've talked this to a few people in a few different ways and people that haven't played card games like that before go blue screen of death yeah yeah so um yeah I think there's a trium it there that I don't think as well it is no yeah yeah yeah and yeah probably we should have like a graph rather than just a just know a chart would be really good like an XY and somewhere in here that's where your game is that would be quite fun but there are again there are at the same time there a lot of there are a few games with a lot of rules yes but those rules are pretty simple or they are pretty simple to teach understand the the difficulty is just to remember all those rules but yeah and you might just have to go back to the rule book a few or something like that um let's talk a little bit then Matt about how I feel there's something of a skew at least in the board Gaming Community to preferring or more highly rating or more or more Respec they do it respecting more complicated games yes I think I think that's kind of like um kind of a trend uh the more complicated the better it looks or it just because he the thicker is the the rule book and they're like oh this feel like a prop game like it's not I I find that's pretty silly we saw a few games even recently where the designer trying to

18:17 push more rules for just for the sake of having an extra rule uh that doesn't help the game doesn't it make it more fun uh it's just for saying like this is a complicated game it's just complicated at that point and I think there is definitely a tendency in board gaming circles to prefer or rate better or respect better games that are more complicated it because people can't understand or wider maybe I don't know or like like I don't understand it this must be a it must be great it must be amazing but that's something I I heavily disagree with and I think people some I don't know from what I I've read a lot on forums and stuff we doing some research this video and and and and Associated videos and stuff that we're doing work on um just the general Fe feel is that there is a skew towards those kind of things and it's something that I think we on the channel Matt couldn't disagree with more I mean I think amazing games and incredible games can be beginner friendly some of my favorite games of all time beginner to intermediate games the games don't have to be expert level extremely complicated games to be good and in fact as you say complexity can be a negative some ways you're adding rules for if you're adding rules yeah for the sake of it that's like um minus for um when if when a games do uh really well then they come up with an expansion that is just adding more rules and then just say why why you done why you done that uh but yeah that is the sake of like more more rules just to to feel like f Flex that you're like

19:49 smart I don't know but a game like Nemesis is an example that I always think about where I think that the game has it's a mess I mean it's a fun mess it's a mess there are too many rules in that game and you could take out two or three entire sections of that rule book and it would be better yeah yeah yeah I don't agree 100% we can disagree about that but I think so I don't agree 100% I say yes probably probably yes um but uh again it's kind of like it's an everyy game that it Amic it's a traic game it's very American and adding um a lot of things yeah I do I do agree with you knew that a few things I would have probably not put it in and uh yeah take I'd say the same thing about Gloom Haven as well I'll take about three rules out of go Haven other things St instead is just perfect it is I'll take this out I take that out throw that away I need that I think I think it's it's perfectly balanced I think for example all right um um glue May then you think you that the rules it's a very standard dung crawler as like the general things the the the the more complicated things is to learn how the cards work how the the deck building works and how the initiative works and the fact that the cards are split into cuz that's more like a Innovative um I love the car but then you take something

21:20 like this it was playing uh the last few days is uh is glue Maven in a teeny tiny box with the same rules of GL May are you playing 20 minutes man they done it well then they done it it very well well done yeah but I like for me my problem is it's very wide and I feel like I'm necessarily so so you've got your your hand then you've got your hand you're worried about everyone else's things at the table then someone has to manage the enemies someone has to manage the enemy deck then you've also got the different elements someone has to manage that as well there's like a bunch of different things I saw way more have to yeah but I saw in play more complicated Dungeon Crawler that there were just complicated for the sake of making them comp even worse than that way worse than that so so there we are so that's I I I don't finally like a um I think Gloom is very very balanced in the um I am in the minority I understand yeah everyone loves GL M um so just on that as a recap heavy doesn't mean good and should never ever mean good but some people skew it that way so Matt what is an alternative and we're not experts and we want to invite you our wonderful board stupid Clan to tell us what a good alternative would be we have our own rating scale which we always use yes we go we talk about from beginner to expert beginner intermediate Advanced expert and I think Matt we wait that mostly on how easy can I learn and teach this yeah I I think I still stick to Wild guns I think I we

22:51 very much will prefer reading uh beginner game or Advanced game or expert game or Ultra expert something is really is really uh more complicated rather than having a number that includes a lot of a lot of things orbl as you say a graph or something like that will be with with yeah the the three things on yeah exactly with the width the depth and and the complexity when complexity refers to the to the rules and the how many rules how many rules how many rules you got because the fact that is a 4.5 because the game takes 7 hours it is the game could be really like really simple but if it takes you 7 hours doesn't means that is it's more complex than is a playing time that is that should be taken taken in consideration um but yeah again BGG does it like as a as a very much of a guided that is it's not the Bible H don't pretend to be the Bible is just an indication for for players but I think yeah we both agree that it should be it could be better for the people going there and checking all right this is a a beginner game that doesn't mean that he's a that he's a bad game that's what we're trying to say could be an amazing game some of my favorite games ever must must stress ever I'll beginner games for sure and that is a wonderful thing yeah means they're easy to teach easy to learn and I can play them more often with my friends and family exactly and

24:22 that's beautiful thing and I think if the language was tidy up even in the definitions and made clearer and more transparent and that might be an improvement as well but I think as it stands man I think we both agree it's not working right now it's a little bit busted yes but more important to us is what do you think we've invited you already and let's just underline that the point of these uh spicy topics these spicy topics is to engage with you and you'll notice in the past ones that we've done we respond to every single comment and thoroughly encourage friendly constructive debate on this topic and all topic absolutely so leave us a comment down there um click the like button and subscribe we'll talk about more later but no the the the idea is that we want to involve you guys in in this conversation we reply to each one of the comments and uh everybody's got a different idea so that is the that is a good things of having that a chat with you guys absolutely what is your perfect weight and rate rating scale for how heavy or complicated a board game should be Matt let's take it to the outro that was a spicy topic all about board game complexity and Matt I had a lot of fun talking about that it's an interesting topic is it yeah and I can't wait to see the comments and to to to read your comment guys and um let's keep let's keep this chat rolling uh because it's a it's a very interesting and uh

25:54 again we try to bring you what we normally me we in chat well we be yeah literally all the time talk about stuff like this board game ratings and all sorts of business so you know what to do if you liked this video please drop us a comment hit the like button and Matt the very special thing is hit the Subscribe button it is very important for us and we appreciate every single one of you thank you very much for hitting that button and showing us that you care give us some love give us some love and we will catch you again real soon ciao