Board game art and artists: The good and the bad (guest: Joe Wiggins, Allplay) | Ep 184

0:06 Hey everybody, welcome to the Going Analog Show. Uh the show in which industry guests come and bring games and topics to discuss. Today we have uh I don't know this this must be like we have the huge board game conglomerate of All Play represented here by Joe Wiggins, the chief operating officer. Um, we have so many things to ask about because allplay I think has taken over like a really unique space in the board game spa space, right? We started off with making board game tables at boardametables.com. Moved into publishing. You make fantastic uh, you know, board game bags that we use all the time just to bring our games everywhere.

0:43 I'm still mad because we used to have four of them. Now we only have three. So, one got lost somewhere. Someone stole it at one point. I don't know where it went.

0:50 Or you were overly generous and you didn't remember. U but you know we've loved a lot of the games that have come out recently too and you know there was a huge announcement at Gen Con. We've got these new imprints of bigger games even though we often um value and love All Play for being compact and beautiful but we have some really big big games coming out too. Some big announcement with dominant species reprint. Um you know we have a lot of personal favorites. I can't even list all the games. We're going to talk about them coming up soon. But welcome to Going Analog Joe.

1:21 Hi thanks for having me. I'm really excited. I know that uh I think as like a casual passing, I think not this last Gen Con, but the Gen Con before that, I had mentioned like, "Oh, I really like your podcast. I really like your show." And then uh Dan was like, "Oh, we'll have you on someday." And then I think it was at this Gen Con that I was like, "Hey, thanks for having me on the podcast." Just as a joke. Uh and I think it was like one of those moments where it was like, "Oh, we never did follow up on that." But no, I I really do actually listen to your podcast. I travel a lot for work, so like having like a deep base of like podcasts to listen to is pretty pretty clutch.

1:58 And the key is shame worked really well on you. So yeah, the shaming helped.

2:03 Well, it didn't just come his shame was more of a reminder cuz I did initially ask him on my own without any shaming or pressure from Joe. So, but uh yeah, thanks for the reminder.

2:13 I think now is like the best time to have him on because we have so many questions and things to talk about for all play. um we like to start off well what is the topic you're going to bring to us today?

2:23 Yeah, so you guys had asked me about uh what topic to bring up or anything like that and I know that you have a lot of guests on but the thing in the industry that I love more than anything else. The part of my job that just gets me more excited than anything else is artists and working with artists in the board game industry and the art for board games. I it is the one thing that I that I'll say no matter how big All Play gets and no matter how many things I'm in charge of, I will never stop being in charge of the art for the board games.

2:55 That's awesome. Yeah, I mean that is definitely true. There hasn't been one miss on the art for me for anything I'll play. So, you've been doing a great job that

3:03 that one you looked at all of their games.

3:05 Everything I've seen like I don't have all their games, but when I see it at Gen Con, you know, everything is like so well packaged. It's like well themed and we'll we'll talk about this more.

3:15 Okay.

3:22 And we always start off our show talking about our game picks. So our game pick this week is from CGE. It was the hot CGE game at Gen Con. It was Drillers. We realized we have played it a bunch um but haven't talked about it as much except for like we were excited right after Gen Con. Yeah, we briefly mentioned it as like part of our Gen Con wrap-up, but then we haven't really dug into the gameplay itself because at the time we haven't played it yet.

3:46 Yes. So, this is by um Adam Spanel and uh is this the art from Raman?

3:52 Reman, I don't sure but yeah, it's a deck building game. Um but

3:57 Oh, designed by Raman. design.

3:59 Uh it's a deck building game and the idea is about we're mechanized uh drillers like we're

4:05 repurposed random things like like I was a school bus repurposed as a driller mech. Yes.

4:10 Yeah. It's kind of like we're just putting things together. We're kind of scrappy and we're digging into the ground to try to find valuable minerals. Uh but the deck building part, it's not really deck building in kind of like the way you think of. It's just like there's one deck. You're not you're going to add a few cards to it. You might get rid of one or two here and there, but uh the idea is like how it's kind of different is that the card in front, you always know what you're going to draw next. It's always face up. You get to see what's coming. And then so then when you're manipulating your deck, you're trying to get cards into play. You know what's coming up. But there's a lot of decisions to be made like how far do you want to droop this uh this time? Do you want to go back to the surface to refuel? Do you want to upgrade your mechs by getting better cars or even having more fuel capacity and all this stuff? So, it's a really uh fun theme.

4:55 It's not very euroy in in it.

4:57 Is it like dystopian or like another planet or like the distant future? Like like what kind of like like period is this taking place?

5:07 I think it's sort of um mad. It gives me a little bit of vibes of Mad Maxi a little bit, but like I don't think the world is super super big cuz you're just mainly digging for minerals. And that's like the the interesting part for me, like the the DNA of the designers. I think they were big developers on the Arnack series. So, I definitely see some of that in in the gameplay. Um, and then one really fascinating part that I've liked about it is I always intro a teach with like it's all about the gems. It's all about the minerals because you will be improving your deck and that's a really fun part and will help you dig better, but you're getting no real points for improving your deck. you're actual you're just improving it so you can get more and more gems and more and more points that way essentially. It was just something that you had said in the description of the game of like you're a repurposed school bus that is like now like a mining like mech that's like uh like now it's like oh well we don't need school buses anymore so we'll just turn them into these capitalistic engines to get minerals and I'm like oo that world sounds dark.

6:08 I know. I Well, cuz the top of it looks a little bit um

6:13 Yeah, they I think you're kind of right on Joe because the top the above world you don't spend much time there. you're mainly digging, but the above world kind of gives you vibes of, like you said, either Mad Max or the Fallout video games and things like that. Sort of like this

6:27 uh you're in desert, there's just construction going on, but it doesn't look like you're in a well like modern civilization or anything.

6:34 Right. Right. Right.

6:34 Yeah. So, you can make

6:36 I've been excited about this one. I haven't been able to try it yet.

6:38 Yeah. It's that little bit of art touch that bring that I really enjoy. Just like a little hint of it. There's like a little like tugboat that turns into a mech that is your mech also. So it really has no impact on gameplay whatsoever. But I like those little touches. So

6:55 well like CGE barely misses, right? Like they they have so few misses. Even the ones that like critically are not loved. I love Deal with the Devil. That was my favorite game that came out that year from CGE. So like they they're just like CGE knows how to stack the hits. They're just so good at what they do.

7:11 Yeah. Yeah. This one I really like because thematically I think it does come through because when you're getting cards, you're adding parts to your mech and it's sometimes you're like, do I want this really cheap thing that may kind of blow up or fall apart and it's a little bit riskier or do you want to save money for the really high quality parts and things like that? But, uh, what I really like is like you, it's very precise because there's multiple levels you could dig down to and you're like, I want to get to level four deep down because I know there's some gems there that I really want that are really expensive, but you have to time it just right. Like, how many cards you playing for movement? How far are you going to move? But then, are you going to have enough to get back to refill and dump off all the uh, loot that you just uh, gathered and stuff? But because of that, I would say probably if there's one drawback, it's that there is a lot to think about. So for such a when you look at the theme, you look at the art, you look at the that it's mainly deck building and then playing these cards out, you wouldn't think the game is a little bit longer than you would expect because you have to pro you're like, I have to think about every card and what order to play them and what order to take the actions and things like that.

8:16 So there's a little bit more thinking involved than a standard deck builder. Yeah,

8:21 I would say it's not super heavy, but because there's so many combos that you can do, I would not play this more than three players typically, uh, because it would just take a long time. So, yeah. Mhm.

8:32 Oh, that's by CG or published by CG. Mhm. What about your game, Joe? What did you bring? Yeah. So, my game, uh, big shout out to my friend Paul, who, uh, is kind of the head of games over at Game Head because they released, um, my favorite nonallplay party game so far this year, and that is sizewise. Uh, so, first of all, I know we're going to talk about art, but I really like how they kind of had this like uh, Schoolhouse Rock aesthetic for the cover. It's very good. Very good. Um, but uh the game have you have either of you two played this yet?

9:08 I was just reading about it, but I didn't I haven't played it yet.

9:12 Okay. So, it's the the concept is really cool. And also, by the way, I'll just mention this box. I have giant size-wise. So, they only made like a hundred of these for stores and I convinced them to give me one cuz I thought it was funny. But like the game is actually like a quarter this size. [clears throat] So, everything I have

9:28 say I'm like that box is a lot bigger than I imagined it to be. But

9:31 yeah, it's I I have like the giant one. So, um, uh, I think the smaller one is better, but I just also wanted the big one. Uh, so in the game, you get a, uh, string that is attached to a loop and has a ball that sits on the string that you can move up and down. And everybody is going to have, you know, a different color, right? And you have this little thing. And what's going to happen is you're going to flip over a card. And even these cards are like gigantic. Uh but it's going to uh on the back there's a number. So you'll have, you know, a deck that says one and then you'll flip a card over and so it'll be like, you know, like this. And it'll say, "Okay, so a bassoon, right, is like what you're guessing." And everyone is going to guess the size they think a bassoon is, right? And so everyone's like, "Yeah." Yeah, exactly.

10:22 So everyone's kind of like doing this and being like, "Wait, wait, a a bassoon is like way bigger. It's like this big, you know?" And so everybody like puts their little things on here and then nobody can see cuz the strings are all kind of like jumbled up and then somebody takes it and does this. Right.

10:38 So in case people can't see the video, they're lifting up a rod that's holding all the ends of the strings so you can see where the balls are. Right.

10:46 Yes. And the goal of the game actually is that based on where you want a bassoon or what a what size a bassoon is. And a lot of them are like things like a baseball or like a Barbie doll or you know an action figure, right? They're just a chocolate bar. There's a lot of different things that it can be. But the goal of the game is that

11:09 once you do this, you do not want to be the highest or the lowest.

11:14 Oh,

11:15 right. Because if you're the highest or the lowest, you lose one of these tokens, which is your wisdom, and you throw it in the box. And as soon as somebody runs out of all their wisdom, whoever has the most is the winner. So, the game isn't even about correctly guessing necessarily. The game is about like, well, like Dan always overestimates how big things are. Like, like there I remember we were like playing one and it was like it had like gopher on there or something like that. And if you've ever seen a gopher in real life, they're not huge, but we were playing it and this woman had it like all the way to the end and we're like, "Nikki, have you ever seen a gopher?" And she's like, "No, I thought they were huge."

11:57 So, yeah.

11:58 And and so it's like one of those really fun things. But the other fun thing I think about it is like it'll say something like board game. What size is a board? There's no size of board. And so just like trying to like be like what are most are they going to think ticket to right size box? Are they gonna exactly like if you work at all play there's a pretty standard dimension that you might go with but even within that like oh is it the $40 one or the 20 like you know what I mean? And so it's it's it's imprecise but also precise and it's a lot of fun and just it's the party game that does the thing you want party games to do where you think about something for like a few seconds. you make a very simple decision and then the fun is afterwards when it's like what like like some somebody all of a sudden is like uh it's like dollar bill, right? Which has a very standard size, right? And so you have a dollar bill and everybody is like in the same range and then one person is like twice as long and you're like what were you thinking? They're like oops. So it's it's fantastic. I highly recommend size-wise. It plays um up to six over six players. I think there's 1 2 3 4 5 6 seven colors in here. So, yeah, it plays a pretty high player count and it's very very simple. It's something you can literally pull off the table and get people playing in 30 seconds.

13:17 That sounds amazing.

13:18 Even the the small box one doesn't have like strings in that long.

13:22 Yeah. Okay.

13:23 Oh, that's funny.

13:23 Well, so this Yeah. So, this one even the uh this one actually has different cards because it's based on how much longer things. Like you would never be able to put like an alligator tail or a salmon on the smaller one. The smaller one will have things like like I said candy bar, baseball, dollar bill, board game, things like that.

13:42 What a smart design, too, because they didn't have to measure anything or or define like

13:49 and have anyone be angry about no factchecking.

13:52 Yeah, exactly. Because when you first mentioned this as your game pick, I just took a brief look and it said you have to try to guess the size. And the example I saw online was like chopsticks. I'm like, "But wait, there's no standard size chopsticks. There's like Japanese chopsticks are different from Chinese chopsticks and etc." And then now I get it. Now I get it. It doesn't matter what it it's. It's just what you think it is. Yeah.

14:12 And uh shout out to Scott Brady, uh designer of Hughes and Q's and Boop and a bunch of other games. So Scott Brady uh designed this one. Guy Guy knows how to design a party game, doesn't he?

14:23 Yes.

14:24 Yeah. All right. So that's why size-wise,

14:27 it's out now in in retail, the normal one. Yes, I believe so.

14:30 All right, cool. We'll have to get that one.

14:38 And now I wanted to talk to you about Alplay because Allplay has been making making big moves for a you know small box originally company I guess but lots of big moves or board game tables originally tables and then the games were like I just remember in the very beginning board game table started publishing games and there was like on tour and QE which is still a perennial favorite and then they're like oh and then there was a rebrand and now with turning into AllPlay, which I think is a much more comprehensive name, you've gone into announcing at the most recent Gen Con, moves into like bigger and more int like, you know, more unique games, I would say, too. So, so there's just so much to talk about here. Like, how's how's it been behind the scenes of all of these big big changes?

15:25 Uh, I think I've said this to about five employees over the last month. uh in just like more in good conversation, but more or less in like asking for some grace in some situations is like um me and Chad are trying to like manage a company that for the last 5 years has been growing like this and it's a very hard thing to do, right? Where we kind of wake up every day and we're like, "Oh, there is new problems that 2 years ago we never even knew existed." Um and stuff like that. Uh it's it's crazy. Um it's been a roller coaster of a ride. Uh but it's all been done with purpose and intention. We didn't just luck into this. We we planned it from the very beginning. We worked very hard to uh build something that we both really believed in and felt like the industry uh needed and wanted to be. And based on those uh things like we've just grown a lot. I mean, we started by shipping the biggest, heaviest things you could possibly imagine in the board game industry, which are custom board game tables, and then quickly moved into uh bags as kind of like an accessory line.

16:34 You know, uh people are only going to buy so many tables that we wanted to have something else to sell to them. Uh the board games kind of happened on a fluke. The designer or the the founder of the company designed a game and was like, "Well, maybe I'll just do this myself." and it was successful and then started doing a lot and then he did three games in one year and said I hate this uh [snorts] and that's where you enter uh me. So I came on board um if if you're watching uh on video but I came on board here and

17:09 oh the pilot games behind you is a timeline.

17:12 Yeah, this I I they're all chronological. Yeah. Uh but basically I came on board when there were seven board games. Uh and that was less than 5 years ago. So this Thanksgiving will be 5 years. Wow.

17:24 Um and uh we had four employees. It was me, the other owner. Uh we had a customer service person and kind of a guy that did a lot of different things. He drove a forklift and did it. He was he's kind of a jack of all trades. Uh but there was just the four of us. And uh now it is just about 5 years later. We have over 90 games released to the market at this point and we have uh we are in the process of doing another round of hiring which will bring us up to over 30 full-time employees. Uh so yeah, it's it's been a lot in that time. We've added new lines of games, new ranges of games. We've added um distribution options. So AllPlay has always done a lot of things ourselves. We do our own pledge managers, our own fulfillments, our own uh logistics. We do a lot of things in house. We don't outsource a lot. and we started working with other board game companies um about three years ago to offer some of those services to them and that's grown tremendously. So now we have approximately 40 companies that work under us. Uh some of them are very close friends to you like Druid City. Um some of them are really big board game companies that in their own right kind of almost rival the size of all play uh in some ways like Cardboard Alchemy with Flamecraft and things like that. So, uh we we work with like all um all types of companies and uh that's been a big thing. And recently, uh at Gen Con, you've mentioned our announcements. We are moving into new types of games and new lines. We we're calling them new lines of games. So, the All Play brand

18:54 will still be the consistent three box sizes that you know and love, but the uh the games uh themselves are going to be growing into new lines. So, we'll have a Masterworks line for Heavy Euros. will have an epics line for um like big immersive experience type games. Uh Sale Legacy will be in that as well as an upcoming game called Crash Landed. Uh and then we have a game that is for IP and IP adjacent games uh that is called um all play creations uh where we are custom building games for different fan bases. And then there's even another one that we haven't announced yet, but we will be announcing that uh at Gamma this year. So, we're really excited about that. Um, fourth line as well, which will be kind of a cool new departure for all play as well.

19:39 Okay.

19:40 Now, what could that be? He has so much covered. I'm like, what could another category be?

19:45 Dexterity games exclusively.

19:47 When when you turn off the when you turn off the recording, I'll share it with you and you'll be like, "Oh, that makes sense." Okay.

19:53 We should We should have some guesses ready for that.

19:55 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

19:55 Yeah. We made a joke after cuz I was at your press conference at Gen Con and I made a joke afterward. uh it's not just all these lines that you're expanding into, but all these different publishers that you work with. And I'm like, it just kind of feels like all Play, we we posted this on social media. We're like, it feels like All Play is just slowly taking over the industry. Uh and because it's also like I had no idea the scope of how many companies you represented or help uh with distribution and such because

20:22 I started noticing at cons the offerings grew and grew and grew in your shelves, which is really awesome.

20:28 Yeah. We'll talk to random publishers. They're like, "Oh yeah, we work with Volplay." I'm like, "You too?" It's like like especially this Gen Con. It was constant. I'm like, "Man, it felt like your presence was sort of everywhere." And we have heard like, you know, not to blow too much smoke up your ass, but there it's like a lot of good feedback from other publishers saying like All Play has been really good to us like for the business uh in terms of how you work with them stuff. So, uh it seems to be working well everything that you're doing right now.

20:56 Yeah. So it it our program tries to be uh two things right it tries to be very non-predatory with the way that we charge for things uh which is kind of the thing that I think the industry really needed is like a lot of small publishers feel nickeled and dime to death char being charged for every single service and our all-inclusive package is a very streamlined process and a very simple pay structure and most of the partners that join up with it end up making more money than they were previously than we actually charge overall, right? So like their their profits are so increased that what we actually charge is like negligible to them in a lot of cases. Uh and then number two is uh a lot of the things that we do for them, we handle their logistics, their pledge managers, their customer service, their fulfillments, their shipping, their ecom. And it basically means that as a board game company, a lot of them can kind of focus mostly on marketing and making new games, which is the two things that are going to help them grow the most as a board game company. And the things that kind of keep distracting them from those two things we take off their plate in a pretty big way. And so I think overall that's like the goal that we have is to like help these publishers grow because as a group the stronger we are, the bigger we are, the more we're going to just like a rising tide floats all boats kind of a mentality.

22:20 And you know, I was just curious because you was like obviously there there have been so many big changes and you've been so successful so far and it's fantastic. I'm excited to see what's coming. Um and you said it's very purposeful, right? like what would you say is all plays um you know maybe not motto but like business philosophy that sort of has encompassed all of these changes.

22:41 Um so I've been working professionally in the board game industry since I was uh 25 years old. Uh I'm 37 now. Um so basically like I kind of like this is all I know like uh like I just I I I know the board game industry. I also kind of spent seven years at Panda Games Manufacturing working with a lot of publishers watching them do things that I'm like I wouldn't do it like that. That's a mistake. I think like wa like watching these companies make decisions not always on the manufacturing side but just making like spending seven years just watching companies in a way like in the background of the industry kind of like doing the backend work right of like the manufacturing of the board games and just being able to be like spotting what creates big problems and spotting how things can be done better and more efficiently, right? Um, and so there's a little bit of that, but then like the other thing is like, um, me and my partner don't agree on a lot. So that's helpful in a way. Like we we we kind of have like a very like challenging each other approach to like how to grow. But we both believe very fundamentally in one core business philosophy which is it is better to take one step even if the entire path is not figured out to make progress and then take the next step as you can rather than like I feel like a lot of people have to feel like they have to know every single possible outcome that could happen and get like very like analysis paralysis about

24:12 making a business decision and we're like yeah let's just jump in see where it goes and work really hard to make things, figure it out as it goes. And I think that that's kind of been a lot of all play strengths. And also one of our big strengths is we do it we do a lot ourselves. We don't pay a lot of outside people to do the work that we do. We do a lot of it ourselves and that's been a really really helpful thing. So I think that that's great

24:38 being able to like seize opportunities when they're there basically. Right. Yeah.

24:42 Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean it's it's so um I don't I just Yeah. I like what Bashu was saying. It's all play is everywhere and I don't mind it. So, so that's cool. Um, wanted to move into well actually before we move into me trying to stump you, which I don't think I'll stump you. It's just a fun little trivia question I have for you. Um, just wanted to ask like, you know, what are some things that you're really excited about for All Play that's coming up that you can talk about right now?

25:11 Um, I am very very excited for these new lines to launch. Um, I actually was just at Dice Tower Retreat uh last week. Yeah, last week. And I was I played five games of Have a Magical Day, which is the first game in the um All Play Creations line, which is about uh planning a trip to a nonIP infringing resort theme park. Uh that people that live in Los Angeles or Orlando might be pretty familiar with that concept. Um, it's designed by John Declair and you know it still has some design work but like the core concept people are like I love what this game is doing, right? It's very comboy. It's very um it it it has a lot of really cool stuff in the game and I'm really really excited about where it's going.

25:59 When is that?

25:59 And then on top uh that is going to be crowdfunded late next year.

26:05 Okay.

26:06 So probably a long time from now. It is a long time from now but it's going to be good. Tr just trust the process. Um and uh but also in March uh we will be launching dominant species which is the first game in our masterwork series which is a partnership with Iano Tool where we are publishing um very heavy Euro games. Uh the first one being of course bringing dominant species to the market in a way that's never been seen before. And man I can share my screen uh with you guys after the show and show you some stuff. It's got some It's [snorts] pretty dang cool. Some of the

26:41 cover was stunning. Stunning. Stunning.

26:43 Oh man, it's it's amazing. There's some really really cool concepts that have been designed into the components of the game that I think when we announce them to people, people are going to go like, "Okay, all Play knows what they're doing with these heavy Euro games. They they thought they thought about this, right?" Uh, but I also got to play test uh a few times because it's like a three and a half hour play test with the setup and teach and everything the second game in the Masterworks line which people were which is an original design. We most of the games that come out are going to be original designs but dominant species was just such a get that we wanted to launch with that. Um, but the second game in that series it's it's singing. It's people really dig it. So

27:26 is that the crap landing one or is that No,

27:29 no. So that's in the Epics line.

27:30 The Epics line. Okay. Uhhuh.

27:32 Yeah. Yeah. I know it's it's going to get real confusing for people real fast, I think. But uh but yeah, we we we're uh we have a secret project in the Masterworks line that is the second game that's already signed and being developed. So that will go to Kickstarter in 2028. So

27:47 also Eno Tool Art because it's all part

27:50 Oh, so Master the Masterwork series specifically is all Eno Tool. It is a partnership pro uh project. Um, the games that are coming out through that line are all Enano Tool 100% of the way. So,

28:03 wow. Okay, that's going to be exciting on its own. I know you're going to bring something up, show,

28:09 I the one time I the angriest I've ever seen Christina be ever in a game session was during we played the original dominant species. Uh, it's it's just such an aggressive game, right? You have to really like lean into like you're going to get beat up a lot and you're going to want to beat up other people. the area control and all of this stuff. And then Christina is not a high conflict game kind of player. So that was like

28:32 I just know my my area.

28:35 Yeah. But I I'll tell a quick funny and we should move on to the trivia, but a quick funny story about this. Uh so at Gen Con you had a press conference about this and then afterward you'd opened up on the main kind of hallway this display case.

28:49 Displays are now open.

28:50 Yeah. Of all the new lines and showing the boxes and such. And I was standing there because I was taking a picture for the aforementioned social media post of like all plays taking over everything. And then a group of guys, there's like three of them were also looking at this display case and they saw the dominant species box and they're like, they can't do that. They can't just take the name of a game that already exists and they were kind of pissed about it. And then I was like, I happen to be there and I happen to just come from a press conference. So I was just in a position to be able to correct them. I'm like, well actually this is what's going on there. that that is the original game. They're remaking it and re-releasing it like properly. They didn't just steal the name and idea. So, the guys

29:29 which isn't like

29:31 it's not that foreign of a concept in the industry. Like they've done it with Castles of Burn Puerto Rico. Like I'm like like it like I'm surprised that a gamers at Gen Con would jump to that as their conclusion that we just like stole a title of a game that's very popular and very wellknown in the industry. Like even if you haven't played dominant species, you've heard of it. So like that would that's that would be wild. That'd be like making a game called like Wingspan or Code.

29:56 Yeah, I know. Yeah, it was a weird reaction, but they were like they just can't take that. And I'm like, well, I'm not a spokesperson for this company, but let me just tell you what the uh Let me correct you here. So, you know, [snorts] appreciate that.

30:10 Okay, so are you ready for your trivia question?

30:13 I am. I have no idea where this is going to go, but I like to play a game in the office where my employees will be like, "What's that game?" and then like describe like very small details about it, and I'm like, "Oh, that one."

30:27 So, I I hope I do pretty good. I I feel like I might be pretty good at this, but um I might completely not be able to do this. So, we'll see.

30:36 It is just board game trivia. And cuz, you know, obviously All Play has been moving into some legacy games, too. We recently played Mountain Goats Legacy. Have been having a great time with that. Sale Legacy, as you mentioned, is coming up. So, we recently had on Rob Davio, of course, the inventor of the legacy mechanism. Um, and we asked him about this. So, if you happen to listen to this episode two episodes ago, you'll have the answer to this. But actually, Shu was there and he did not remember.

31:05 I was like, "Oh, this came on. I don't remember that. That was weeks ago." So you know famously according to Rob Davio he made a joke about which particular classic board game that then inspired this whole legacy mechanism that he used later of course first on risk legacy and then a bunch and then famously pandemic legacy but he originally came up with this just joking about one of these following uh classic board games. Was it

31:32 okay?

31:33 A Monopoly, B Clue, C Battleship, or D The Game of Life? Which one inspired Legacies?

31:42 Okay. So, I do not know the answer to this, but I have I'm just going to go with my gut and say of all the games you mentioned, there's there's two that I think are good answers because I think they would both make interesting legacy games. I think they would both make interesting legacy games. So, the two that I think would make good uh interesting legacy games would be Monopoly, but also Battleship. So, I'm going to go Battleship because I think that that would like I could see what Battleship Legacy would be and I think that that's kind of cool.

32:13 That was a good fake answer. Sorry, you've been faked out.

32:17 The answer was actually clue because he made a joke in a meeting about what if why do they keep inviting these same people back to dinner, right? what if they remembered who the murderer was and that sort of led to uh eventually risk legacy and stuff. So, a fun little fun fact. There you go.

32:41 But we wanted to go into our actual topic. So, can you remind us of our topic today, Joe?

32:46 Yeah, we're going to talk about art in board games. And I have a lot to say about that, but yes, I you you mentioned that was a huge aspect of what makes Allplay All Play as a publisher, right? And so what like there's a lot of I I was going to just make a joke that if it's like a small game, you're just going to give to Saiboo, which I am super happy about. Um but what goes into this process where you decide like do the designers have a lot of influence on the artist that they want? Do they come with an artist already? Do you sort of help them with that? What's that process like for All Play?

33:22 So, I've never had a um So, actually, believe it or not, um all of the original games that Chad had worked on um were all done by our graphic designer, Anka, who has done art for board games and also has done some BGG posters for the BG poster thing that they do.

33:41 Um she did the Gloom Haven one famously. Um, but uh the only game that ever came to us with an artist was actually Kabuto Sumo. So Tony Miller had been posting about that game on Twitter and Quanchai had reached out to him and said, "Hey, I love the theme of this. I love a game about like uh Japanese wrestling be uh like wrestling beetles." He's like, "Tell whatever publisher that signs this that I will do the art for it and I will do it at like a reduced rate." Wow. And so that was the first time that Chad had ever like had a different artist. And I think that the art for Kabuto Sumo really caught on to people. Um I don't know that I would consider it Kwani's like most prolific art, but I think a lot of people associate like Catacombs, Kabuto, Sumo, Zuvatus with like Quani, Dinosaur Island probably another one that people go like, "Oh yeah, Quani."

34:35 Like there's certain games that are like those are Quani's like flagship games, I think. Right. Um, but Kabuto Sumo just really attracted people and made us real like made the company realize like, oh, if you just like get really cool, interesting, unique art and think about like what the art for the board game's going to look like and not just say, uh, here's the theme. Draw me some ants. Not to say that Anka ever did a bad job with her art, but um, but like to to to think about what artist do you want? How do you want this game to feel? How do you want it to come across? How do you think like the art goes well with the theming of the game? Because there's been artists that I've wanted to work with for a very long time. In fact, um Harry Conway was like an artist that I actually recommended to several publishers cuz publishers would reach out to me and be like, "Oh, do you have an artist that you'd recommend for this game or this game or this game?" And Harry Conway, who did the art for Veiled Fate, was an artist that had been on my list for a million years. And I actually recommended several publishers to work with him. and he did work for them before I ever got the chance to work with them because Allplay has a very like familyfriendly brand. Yes.

35:40 And Harry Conway has a very dark, gritty, distinct style.

35:45 So until came al along, I did not feel like I had a game because I wasn't going to be like, "Oh, I've got this game about cats. Can you can you draw cats, Harry?" Or, "I've got this game about like constellations in the sky or animals trading glass. Harry, can you draw that for me?" cuz I feel like it would have just been a huge mismatch. And so that's one of the things that I really enjoyed in getting to work with uh like so many different artists is like pairing the artist with who the type of theming that I wanted. And that was really uh Kabuto Sumo really kind of opened the company's eyes to what that might look like.

36:21 Have you ever had examples of where you thought this would be a good fit and then it didn't turn out and you maybe you had to pivot?

36:27 Oh yeah. So, not to call any any art artist out, but I have a game that uh went through a lot of postwork from the artist because the artist uh was awful to work with. Um, and I will say that I've had a lot of uh publishers reach out to me and say, "Hey, uh, I'd really like to work with the artist that worked on such and such game." And I always tell them, "Do not work with that artist. Work with this other artist instead." M

36:53 and I'm just going to be honest like your reputation will precede you.

36:58 Uh I don't think we were asking too much. I think it was just a very bad fit and they were not performing or delivering files that we felt were matched the caliber of what we saw in their portfolio and they were just kind of phoning it in and we didn't like that. And then every time we asked her even the smallest revision, which our contract dictates that we are allowed revisions, uh they wanted to charge us exorbitant exorbitant amounts of extra money. Uh and so I do just basically have put them on a blacklist for me personally. I will never work with them again. And then any publisher that asks, and I'm not out there like trashing this artist to anyone who will listen, but I very specifically am like I like if anyone asks me, I'm like, "Nope." It's the same thing. Like if somebody asked you for a handyman, like a recommendation on a handyman, and you had a terrible experience, somebody, you'd be like, "Do not work with that guy." Right. It's the same thing. Like,

37:54 did did this artist actually complete the project? Is it in a final product or did you have to switch artists?

37:59 Oh, it's in a final product, but uh a lot of the art that's in that game is not theirs because it had we basically had to hire somebody else to fix everything that left undone or were unwilling to fix.

38:10 Yeah. And that must be crazy because like how many artists have has Alpe worked with? I don't know if you um were you counting

38:16 over 50.

38:17 Over 50. Yeah. I wanted to see where I got to and I got to like 54 and I was like, "Okay, over 50."

38:23 Wow.

38:23 I was quite near the end though. So, um over 50 on about 90 games. So, uh like we've worked with Andrew Bosley twice. We've worked with Quanchi on a couple of different projects, but twice we've worked with um like obviously at the beginning Ana did like a lot of the early games. Um We've worked with twice. Um, yeah. So there, uh, I worked with Dom2D twice, who is great. Shout out to Dom2D. They are amazing. So they did Pinñatas and then, uh, recently Wild Berries. Um, I also have gotten to work with like some artists that work in like incredibly unique mediums. So uh, Imps, which is a game that will be coming out shortly, uh, probably at the very beginning of next year. I got to work with an actual claymation style artist and all of the art in that game is actual pictures of claymation figures which I've been wanting to do. That had been on my list forever and so when I finally was like this is the game to do Claymation I was like let's do it and I was really excited about that.

39:20 Yeah, I remember seeing a preview of it and I was like the art is so is like so unique and like fun and quirky and weird and I love that. So can't wait to play that one.

39:28 What are your thoughts on AI usage? uh like generative AI usage for art.

39:34 Uh very against it. Very very against it. I I think if like I don't think too hard about it as a publisher if like a designer has like just decided to like fill out their prototype with it. It does like just so that I can like get the theme across like they're not using it for like to make money or anything like that. Like I guess I'd prefer if they just didn't have any art versus AI art, but it doesn't bother me that much. which I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, if you show me a prototype with AI art, I'm not even going to look at your prototype." I don't I don't have that strong of feelings. Uh because I understand like why generative image uh technology exists today. I think it's terrible. I think when I see a menu that uses it, I'm instantly kind of grossed out. Um but like and also like like it all looks the same, doesn't it? Like it all just has like that same weird

40:24 uncanny sort of thing.

40:25 Yeah. It's just weird and like I don't like it. It's not for me. I I really like working with artists and and the thing that I would say is there's a lot of artists in the boarding industry and that a lot of publishers use that I would never work with in a million years because I have a distinct thing that I very much like about art, which is I like when an artist has like a vibe. And I think that there's this very um I personally call it like very um like digital art where it's everything's like very round and like rendered and like computer like it looks like something like from a video game almost or like an app. And that kind of art really just turns me off. And I have a lot of artists that reach out to me and be like, "Here's my portfolio." And it's all that same style. Um almost like like not as good as a Pixar movie kind of art, I would say. like it's like but it looks like it's like vibing towards that. I don't I don't like that. I like artists that have like a vibe, a feel like they do something unique. Um, that's really kind of my big thing is like finding artists that have like a very unique style of drawing because that's what I think is going to like if they if it's the right game and the right fit and the right theme, people are going to look at that and go there's so much intention behind this game and that's really something that I love.

41:49 Yeah. What would be a good example for you uh all play or otherwise that of like hey a game where the art hits just right. It's just it has that vibe is it evoking evoking something a little bit different than just like uh here is the setting or whatever. Yeah. Uh actually one of the games that I think does that in a way that like really just makes the game uh stand out in a very interesting way is Wonderland's War or really the entire Wonderlands War series cuz that universe has now had Mad Kala and Off with Their Heads and uh Duel. Uh and I'm sure they're going that's not going to be the last thing that ever comes into it. But like uh Manny uh Tremble, right? Manny Tremble. Yes. Okay. because there's two Manny's. Manny Vega designed Flamecraft. Manny Tremblelet designed Dice Throne, but also did the art for Dice Throne and Wonderland. So, I'm always trying to like which Manny uh and so Manny Tremble did the art for that one. And Manny Trembley is so good at using like this like perfect amount of like darkness and neons like he used and I think he also did the art for like uh Roth and Wreck uh from Neon Night Studio under Chip Theory. Um, which, uh, now, uh, my friend Jennifer is kind of running that studio, which is really exciting. Um, she used to work at Key Master, but I think that that's like really really cool. Um, I really like that. Um, that just

43:19 slight bit of menace menace in it, but like in such a stylish way. I I I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.

43:26 And I also really like like shout out to Quani. My favorite Quani art is actually in a very small game from inside up called uh Max Maximus Goris or Maximum Gorus or something like that. You can find

43:39 Yeah.

43:40 Yeah. It's a trick-taking game about gladiators. It is like Quanchai drawing at his cutest level with this epic amount of blood and gore in it. So, it really kind of like uh uh as the Brits say, takes the piss out of it, right? where it's like ultraviolent but so like happy tree friends almost in a way, right? Like shout back to early 2000s uh YouTube culture, but like uh like it has that like it's so cute but so gory that like it almost like counteracts itself and it's just such a really good thing. That's actually what's was imps. We signed the game and the game had like uh demons and imps and they were in hell and everything like that. And we were like, "Okay guys." Um, so there there's imps because the game is imps. This was one of the ones we didn't change the theme on, but we're like, "There's imp." But then there's overlords, not demons. Uh, and then we're they're not in heck, they're in the underworld. And just because like we didn't really want to go into that like oh the devil and you know hell and everything like that and get real real biblical with it. So we wanted to like kind of like tone it down. And I my thought was this is the perfect game to get like that cute claimation artist to work on because now everything just has this like cuteness to it where they look at and they go, "Yeah, they're all like little little devils, right? But they're cute. That's fun." and leaning on the sort of like zany side of it being an

45:11 imp instead, which totally comes across from what I've seen. So, yeah.

45:15 Yeah, it is a Gorus Maximus, by the way. Gorus. Yes. I I got Yes. There you go. And I just want to give a shout out for I think it was Gen Con last year where you brought Saiu out and I was like I don't really get starruck by random people in board game stuff but I was like I really love her art. It's so cute and I was just like love that so many of the newer like cute little titles have been sideboo art and I was like yeah that's why I like it. It's so cute. So that's one of the few things that All Play has done is actually the tiny box line is entirely exclusively

45:56 Sibu in every game in

46:00 every single line in that game is a Sibu art and she has actually a lot of range every and she says this all the time. Everyone just wants her to do cute things but she can do so much more. In fact, I have two brand new releases from her right here and I'll show them to you right here on camera and you can see just like how different. So, this game is called Hero World and has kind of her kind of standard cuteness to it, but it's kind of like a Power Ranger kind of theme, right?

46:26 Uh, but then she did this other game for us called Way Too Spacific, and it has this like collagey uh sex pistol kind of. Yeah. So, it's got like this like very like graffiti collage like ransom notes vibe to it. and like she has range and so um I definitely think that like and that's why Saepu uh one of the things that led us to wanting to work with her is uh number one we have always loved her stuff uh but uh she tweeted out like 6 years ago she tweeted out uh that she was in a game store and saw the Helvetic line and Helvetic has like the same artist for that like smallbox line they have uh I think Odin is like their most famous one in that one but they also have like band Banditos or Banderos or something like that. And so they have this like line of games and she tweeted out one day I want to have a line of games with a publisher. Oh wow.

47:21 And it wasn't like I took that tweet and was like I'm going to do that for Sibu one day. But when I brought the idea to her she was like I really want to do this. And so uh I know the camera's like a little tilted but like right up there you can see all of the tiny box games that she's done up to this point. So it's pretty awesome.

47:40 I had no idea. Yeah, you're right. that second game that you just showed, I'm like there there's I'd never in a 100 million years would have guessed that was Sideepu. It's it's so like uh it's so different for her. But yeah, like one of our like one of our favorite trick taking games, Vivo. Uh it's also small box game, but it's uh it's a simple trick taking game, but every art is like this cute little animal playing music or or singing, right? And it's just like every time we've broken out and shown more people, they're just like drawn into that art. And it's like no fancy backgrounds. It's very simple. is just like a a puppy or something right in the front and uh but it's just so so adorable. Yeah. Yeah. Christina loves Side Boo's art.

48:20 I took a picture with her. It was great. It was a great selfie. So, you know.

48:23 So, let me ask you two a question. Uh I'd love if uh also if you had different answers, but I'll put you two on the spot. Who is your favorite? And I know favorite is just such a porative word, but like what like board game artist gets you like super excited. Like if you know that this there's going to be a game with this artist on it, like which artist gets you most excited about a game. Nothing about the game aside, just the you know that this artist is doing a game, you're like, I got to go check it out. Uh two come to mind immediately. I I'm sure if I really thought about this, I would probably have a top five easily. But the two that immediate who immediately come to mind, one is Quanchshi Mario cuz I love his uh art in games like um is it Rebel Knox? Was that one? It's like a trick taking game and uh

49:13 Capital Lux Capital Lux. Yeah.

49:17 Yeah. And the board game poster he made for Galaxy Trucker. I just like love his sort of it's a little bit retro futuristic style, but it's uh it's just really beautiful um and very evocative. And I really like also uh Ryan Lockett from Red Raven Games because he has this kind of watercoly style as well that's very dreamy. And so his their line of games, a lot of them are in this same world. Uh Azeria Azerium.

49:47 You have a shirt.

49:48 I actually have a shirt with this brand. Uh but this world that they built for a lot of their games u it has this similar art. It is just very dreamy and it just feels like you're being taken to a farway land. So I like those two a lot.

50:01 Yeah. For me I think my the first artist that I ever started recognizing was Na Niade Niad who did uh you know Tokaido. That was like the first game that struck me like the art does not have to be cartoon beans or or whatever it was that I was playing before, you know, and I was like this is like such a revelation to me. And for a while I was following a lot of Niad's art because I just like loved um the the style in it. I like the minimalist part of Tokaido, but also some of the subsequent games. Just a really cool sort of like um modern take on sort of on things. And then um recently I've been really into yeah things that have a different medium. I don't I don't know if like I mean I think I love all of the artists we've been talking about but u Mr. Cington going into um basically generating the all of um Niri bas basically I remember we were talking to James Hudson for tidal blades um he was like if you could design a world what would that look like and they basically created Niri had a lot of input on the narrative background of it and they built a series of tidal blades games from their art and then they also do brass so it's like such an interesting range on Mr. Cington that I really like. Um, and then one other just thing that comes up to me a lot was sea salt and paper. How you were talking about I wanted some new different kinds of art in my game. You know, sea salt and paper had hand handfolded origami and photos of that and it was so striking. Um, those are the things that

51:32 excite me like new things. So

51:34 yeah, Mr. Cington would absolutely be like at the top of my list. Uh, uh, Mr. Cington, which I think is like the funniest joke in board gaming is like people like don't know that it is like a husband and wife team that live in Canada. Uh but they are like uh they are like supremely talented uh in a way that like I I don't even quite understand. I think they are absolutely amazing uh phenomenal artists. And so I really love when I hear that they're working on something. one because I love their art style. Um, even though it's so ranged and so different, but number two, I know that they only take a project if they're like like they're not taking projects just to get the bills paid. They're taking projects because they like are like excited about the world and the world building that they're doing. So, that is like massively huge, right? To know that that if they're doing something, it's going to be something like a tidal blades or an Aridia or something like that. Yeah, your question is a good one because I think there definitely now we're at the point that it's uh this is great that there are artists whose names can help sell the game that you're immediately interested in, right? Because besides like even like their name like like Beth Sobo or uh Enian O2 we talked about where it just when you hear the name you it instantly grabs your attention because you're like okay now I expect that there's a certain level of quality to the game itself because uh maybe I I

53:05 don't know if maybe it's they they've always been lucky and have been associated with great games or that they're they're al like the picky about their projects but yeah like like one thing I thought been great for the Euro kind of genre is Tulle very making them look more modern still kind of like okay this is still a Euro right it's very like uh there's a dryness to it but at the same time it's like modernized it's not ugly it's not all beige and these old uh ill illustrated old men and stuff like that so I I do like what you know Tools done for the genre but yeah it's really cool that the artist can help carry the uh little bit of the game with them as a publisher I will say I think We have kind of flipped a little bit from 12 years ago where I think 12 years ago the designer, the UV of Rosenberg, the Stefenfeld, uh like the um Richard Garfield, right? Uh these these people's names would really help sell a game, right? And nowadays, I would say that getting a good artist is much more important than getting a well-known designer. Like obviously if you do a John Declair game it will have a little bit better. Obviously if you do an Elizabeth Hargrave it's going to do really good. But if you get like an artist that people like care about and know about, I I mean that's one of the things that I think really helped Galactic Cruise in a huge way is because even though the designers, you know, this this Kinson key company, nobody knew who they were, nobody knew what it

54:35 was, but the fact that Ian Tulle was on that project really carried that project in a way that I don't know would have been carried if they had just hired

54:44 some budget, you know, uh, artist to like work on the game, right? And so I think that that meaningfully carried weight for that itself. You put Andrew Bosley on a game, people are going to get excited, right? Um without even knowing like who the designers are. So uh Weber Santiago, you put Weber Santiago art on a box. As long as it's good and he's not drawing like some weird high-rise. Uh I'm sorry. Sometimes I get like weird when people just hire an artist for like If you've ever seen the game Flat I Yeah, Flat Iron game's fine. It's good. Why hire Weberson to draw that? I don't understand that to save my life. But anyways, that's uh that's kind of uh one of those things where like I think certain artists, you put them on a box, people go, "Oh, what's that?"

55:31 That actually brings to mind this newer game that we've talked about. What was the bird one that Quanchshi did art on from Happy Camper? It was like had that little quirk. Beach Bandits. Beach Bandits. Yes, it was Quani art on this little card game. And I was just so surprised first of all and we started playing and I was like it's a very fun game. Like it's very light game cuz it's happy camper games and stuff but he put a lot of personality into the seagulls and I had so much fun looking at his art. So like yeah that artist can bring that extra bit to it. So anyway

56:04 yeah. So if you're watching on video uh here's Beach Bandits. Like that's another one I never would have thought that was him. I didn't even really realize until you said it. So, here's Peach Bandits and then uh here's the Vivo game from All Play It and Art by Syepu that we mentioned earlier. A very cute tricking game, but the art is just incred. It's a fun game, but the art really really

56:24 and we want that perfect marriage now. We demand it cuz there's so many games out there, we might as well have good art and good gameplay at the same time. So,

56:32 agreed 100%.

56:33 All right, so thanks so much for joining us, Joe. We had so much fun talking. uh you know, if they want to follow what All Play is up to, where's the best place to do that? Or you, whatever you're up to, too.

56:44 Uh don't follow me. I'm not that interesting. Uh I do a podcast, uh with my good friend Nick, who owns Bitewing Games. It's called The Bits. Uh you can if you just type the Bits, uh you can find that. I think it's on Bitewing's YouTube channel. Uh it is the nerdiest podcast you could ever listen to. Uh it is a deep deep deep dive about uh all the nitty-gritty details of like publishing. In fact, we did like 2 hours talking about working with artists on our first episode. Uh so uh if you're into that kind of like real nerdy insider industry stuff, hey, maybe there's a podcast for you. Uh but uh Allplay, you can find us All Play just on Instagram, on all of the regular things that you do. Uh, we put out how to play videos for all of our new games, so you can follow us on YouTube, all those types of things. Um, yeah, I mean, the best way to stay in touch is to sign up for our newsletter, which you can do on our website. So, um, highly, yeah, recommend that. I think that, you know, if you want to be informed on everything Allplay's got going on and all of our 40 partner publishers, I think that you should absolutely just, you know, sign up for that newsletter and just, you know, absorb it. But I think it's a great way to just keep in the loop on what's going on over here.

58:03 Perfect. Thanks so much for listening everybody. Thanks to our amazing editor, Mike Zipkin, and thanks of course to Joe for joining us. Now we can stop listening and go play a game. Bye.