Broken Meeple Podcast 143 - Why Play With Other Players?

0:28 Hi everyone, 18th of October. Yes, we're a little overdue for a podcast. Um I probably should have done one last week, but in all fairness, October is very busy when it comes to conventions. I mean, you know, after the trip to Vienna, which was solid, you know, good solid trip, you know, not every single excursion hit home, but 85-90% of what I was doing over there was pretty sound, and let's face it, despite the calamity with one of the wine bottles I brought back breaking in my suitcase, at least I still got some other really nice wines to partake in over the next couple of months. But, um yeah, and after that, October gets quite busy because October has three conventions that I deal with. Shake That and Roll, which was what I played last week, Essen, which is coming up, I'm leaving on Wednesday morning, and Handycon, which will be on the 30th or 28th or something, whatever, it's that weekend.

1:22 They're in their new venue. I'm going to that one, so there's basically quite a bit of activity, and so it makes it very difficult to record a podcast. Now, last week I was busy for the whole weekend, so couldn't really do one then. Obviously, this weekend I'll still be, well, on the Sunday I'll be at Essen and traveling back from Essen, cuz I'm going to leave Sunday afternoon. And so, yes, I'm obviously not going to do a podcast then. So, I thought I would just time it for today. This is the one weekend where I've got some spare time, and you know, I'm going to record this podcast, cuz then in 2 weeks' time I will be able to do a podcast based on the Essen post review. So, that will just That will just work for timing. Sorry, I got a bit of a Yeah, my throat is still not 100%. It It dries up. It gets a little bit uh hoarse, you but uh should be okay for Essen. I'm not doing any demoing at Essen, so that should help. But, yeah, just bear with me. I might have to do the occasional cough every now and again. But, yeah. So, generally, uh things are good. I mean, I'd say Ship Shape and Roll was a good laugh. Uh I definitely had fun. Played a bunch of games. Um and, you know, nothing new. Uh well, actually, no. I played one new game. I played Cascadia Alpine Lakes. And since then, I have played it more. And so, the idea And this is basically um a copy I acquired myself just so that I could do a review.

2:42 I was tempted to just to do a chat on this podcast about it. I mean, it would give you something to listen to on the trip to Essen, I guess. But, I've had a look on BoardGameGeek, and I noticed there's not a huge amount of actual review videos for this. Certainly, big names have done one in the recent months, as far as I can tell. So, I thought, "Actually, no. This is probably good prime time to do a review for Cascadia Alpine Lakes." So, I'm going to do my best to do that on Tuesday. I've got time on Tuesday to just do a recording, do an edit, and get it out. You know, it's not going to be a long review because, well, if you've played Cascadia, you already know most of what's in this one. So, I don't expect to need a long review, which means it shouldn't take too long to edit it. But, I'm going to do my best to do that on the Tuesday to give you another video that you could, I guess, listen to in your car as you're going to Essen. I mean, you can always You can listen to this podcast in the car. You can also listen to my videos in the car. You don't have to watch the video. You can just listen to it. So, hopefully, you'll have some entertainment on your journey.

3:39 But, yeah, we're going to deal with that then, I think. There's There's enough to talk about today, I think, for a reason for a a a standard length episode. But, uh channel-wise, generally fine, actually. I mean, if anything, I think I'm noticing a bit of influx and activity. We're almost at 28,300 in terms of subs. A few videos have come out in recent weeks since the last I mean, obviously, since the last one I did was actually good blow me, yeah, it was the Essen Spiel preview. So, that was the last video I did for the Broken Meeple podcast. So, since then, we've had Avalon: The Ribbon Veil, we've had Dale of Merchants Anniversary Edition preview. As I said, I'm very picky about the previews I do. We've had Abroad, we've had Drillers, we've had 60 Below, the new Alexander Pfister game, and recently yesterday I just put up Ashes and Amber, which is a kind of indie publisher game, also going to be at Essen. So, quite a few videos, six videos since then, and they're all doing pretty well. I mean, Ashes and Amber has only just come out, and it's already 2 and 1/2 thousand, which I'm very surprised by given that it's an indie game. I didn't think many people would actually bother to watch it. But, you know, 60 Below, 8 and 1/2 thousand, Drillers, 7 thousand Drillers, especially. I mean, Drillers came out at Gen Con, and all the big names have reviewed it. So, I expected that nobody would care at this point.

4:57 Abroad, that's a 2025 release, but it will be at Essen. Portal Games will be showing it off. And so, nearly 6 thousand for that. Dale of Merchants 7 thousand, Avalon 8 thousand. Now, granted, some of these have been on air since mid-September, and some people would get 8 thousand views within the first couple of days. But, hey, you know what? I'm going to be happy with results like that. It's I'm noticing this trend actually with the videos in general, you know? I'm not getting any videos which are just like, ah, 500 views, and it wasn't worth it anymore. There's definitely more people watching, and maybe that's just the fact that many people are getting a bit more conscious about their money, and so they want, you know, a more consumer-focused approach. I don't know, but either way, I'm glad more people are watching the show. So, yeah, by all means, keep those numbers in, keep those comments flowing, you know, engagement is the primary thing that we need on these videos. You know, we need people commenting. We need I obviously I try to respond to as many comments as I can and you know, engagement is key. So, yeah, I mean, good to see that these videos are being popular and I'll try to get Cascadero done on the Tuesday and then you'll see a bit of a break because obviously I'll be at Essen. I'm not going to do any videoing while I'm at Essen. I mean, if I appear on anybody else's videos or vlogs, then fine. I'm the the hassle in trying to arrange vlogs at conventions is just painful. I mean, you need a decent Wi-Fi connection and you need to sit in your hotel room and then you're just talking to a laptop screen. I've tried it before and I just

6:27 don't think they work that well. They're not usually something I tend to watch myself either. I prefer to just get one big show after the convention is done when you can collect your thoughts and just get a move on because you're going to be enjoying yourself in the evening as well. I mean, you know, there's there's a couple of parties after the convention I want to go to. There's obviously going to be people to see, followers to meet, you know, games to play. And so, to reserve an hour and a half, you know, to do a vlog every evening is I don't know, it just seems a bit of a lot taken out of your trip. So, you know, I won't be doing any of that stuff. You know, you'll see photos of me. I'll put stuff on Instagram and Facebook and that. So, you'll be able to see those sort of things, but yeah, vlogs are just not my style, I don't think. So, you know, next time you'll see a proper video, probably it's going to be a while. I mean, I will try to do a video when I come back from Essen for something. I'll try to review something or do a chat or or maybe do the podcast or maybe do an Essen review as a video rather than as a podcast. I mean, that could work cuz come to think of it, I've also got Essen next weekend, but I've also got HandyCon the weekend after and I won't have time on the Sunday to record on that one. so it may be that I'll have to take a couple of weeks break from the podcast, and what I'll try to do is a video for the Essen review as a normal video. So, me sat at the table and doing my thing, or maybe I'll sit at the laptop, I don't know. I'll I'll do one way or the other.

7:58 But, maybe I'll record that as a separate show on like the Wednesday, the Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday that week, you know, probably Tuesday or Wednesday, I'd imagine, cuz Thursday I'll need to go off to HandyCon. But, yeah, what can I say? This is the autumn, and autumn is busy convention season. I mean, once HandyCon is done, 2 weeks later, GridCon, Paul Grogan's one. So, yeah, I've got plenty enough conventions to go to. It's all good fun, but it just means you have to bear in mind that, you know, busy life means podcast scheduling is a bit of a problem, because I know you can say, "Why don't you record it on other days?" Well, those other days are needed for other things and other videos. So, it's difficult to just suddenly shift things around. But, yeah, so far, so good. And as I say, health-wise, throat could be better. I felt a bit My throat's been a bit iffy since I came back from Vienna.

8:44 Um and uh you know, appendix-wise, no issues. I'm back at the gym doing what I do. Uh occasionally, I get a bit of a soreness in the abs area, so maybe it's still healing internally, but I'm back at the gym doing like three, four times a week, you know, trying to lose some of that weight I put on over August, you know, in time for Essen, cuz obviously I want to fit into my uh Broken Meeple polo shirts, and they were not exactly the the most spacious of polo shirts before, so I've had to really work at the gym to burn some cardio. But, you know, I got to make sure I don't overdo it. I'm only doing high reps, low weights in terms of um physical weights. So, it's more about muscle fatigue rather than straining anything. And that seems to be going pretty well. So, like I say, I seem to be recovering pretty well. So, all you know, all good on that front.

9:31 Okay, uh let's talk about a game I have played recently, and that is going to be one that I played just the other night on TTS. I played on Tabletop Simulator, so bear in mind that it's not necessarily a board game first impressions, but it's a first impressions of Grey Loon. Mhm. Sweet of delicious coffee. Um in fact, I think this coffee Did I get this I think I got this from Vienna actually. Yeah, I think it's actually a dark roast from Vienna that I bought in a a random What did I What was it called? The the coffee roasters or something like that. It was something like that. Um it's a pretty popular place in Vienna. I It was on a similar street next to an old church, I believe. I forget its name, but I just did it on the last day when I was running around on the Saturday. I just thought, "Yeah, I got to buy some coffee beans." I mean, how can you go to Vienna, the biggest coffee culture place in the world and not you know, partake in coffee? So, um I'm probably going to be mentioning random Vienna stuff on this podcast, but I just thought I'd bear in mind I never actually chatted much about what I got up to. Um I mean, uh yeah, well, I was I can't talk about that too much. Okay, so we're looking at Grey Loon. Grey Loon is essentially basically Spearium 2.0. And if you don't know what Spearium is, Spearium was a game that came out oh ages ago, 2013. It was a very boring theme, but the game itself was pretty sound. It came in a small box. It was very easy rules and you basically had a grid of cards that you put meeples in

11:03 between and basically you either lifted the meeple off to buy the card um or you lifted them off in order to get income. But how much a card cost or how much income you got was based on other players' meeples around those cards. So, you were kind of like doing this weird little market bidding system with meeples and the various cards. And what you actually did with the cards was pretty boring. I mean, you just It was factories, so you just convert X into Y and all that. But it was an interesting little game. It got a bit stale after a while and I decided to get rid of it, but overall, sorry, the web page seems to be playing up there. I'm hoping I can get Speerium to behave. Come on. Come on. Behave. There we go. Um And so, Grey Loon is basically the like 2.0 version. Because it's basically the same game with some tweaks and maybe a couple of extra additions. So, in this one, it's still the same 45 to 90 minutes, two to four players. You know, it's got a adventuring theme this time round. You know, a sort of medieval adventuring theme. Whatever. I mean, the theme could be anything with this game.

12:07 It literally is It literally means nothing. And yes, you are bidding on cards, except now you have companions and you have items and you have a you know, taverns. The idea being that you will go off on these adventures, go off on quests and then come back and brag about your tales. This is a big aspect of the game. Um the theme could be anything. I mean, don't get into this thinking, "Oh, that sounds like a funky theme." There really is not that much theme in here. But, the concept of the grid cards is still the same. You essentially have the grid a 3 x 3 grid. You will put meeples in between these cards and you will lift them off in order to take cards or buy them, etc. So, the rules of Speerium and this are very much very similar. But, there's this added aspect of the map. You now have a horse meeple that you can go around the outside of this little sub board as a map and it allows you to collect these quest cards. So, I had them on the second ago. Here we go. And basically, they You've got some of them that are just objectives, these little tiles.

13:01 But, others are these cards where you've got like a book symbol in the top right of a value and then if you meet the prerequisite or cost on the left, you get the reward on the right. And there could be multiples of these. But, when you get these cards, they go up with your board and there are some tiles on the 3 x 3 grid that allow you to cash these cards in for, you know, something like this one here. You can cash them in and get rewards based on what you cashed in. So, the better the quest award, the better award you get from the tavern. This is kind of like the main difference. Otherwise, you have an event card that you can go on each round. You have items that you can take that give you effects, and you have companions who, you know, require a little bit of income in order to keep going, but they give you some like end game scoring condition as well as some other benefits for having them, but they are quite pricey.

13:49 Uh the little side thing on that is that you have a couple of tracks to level up for strength and magic. This is just basically prerequisites for the quests. And there are ways to get more meeples and more money, etc., etc. So, the game itself is fine because I like Spearium and I like, you know, the mechanics in it. So, the mechanics are fine in this one, but I do have some reservations from first impressions. And so, a lot of that comes down to some of the flaws that were in Spearium that haven't been resolved here. Um and some of them come from the odd economy and balancing issues I found. So, the issues that have resurfaced is this uses dynamic worker placement. So, you will go into different phases at different times. That works for for one In partially, that is a fun thing to have, you know, the idea that you've got to decide, "Oh, when do I go from spring to summer?"

14:38 When I've got to start taking people off, the timing is key, but it also means that you could finish a round and be waiting for others to do all their actions before you get a chance to go again. And that downtime is kind of annoying, and it also feels a bit demeaning cuz you feel like you've achieved less than they have because they got to stick around and do more. Um but the uh other ones, I mean, there's potential AP issue because there's quite a lot of decision making to make about the grid. Uh and, you know, stuff like that still resurfaces from the original game, but the biggest issue I have is some of the economy and balancing in this game. The movement around this map is paramount. Like, everything revolves around this movement. You know, you cannot do well at this game if you do not do decent at this questing lark. And I did the least amount of questing in my group, and funny enough, you know, I didn't actually come last, but that was only because one person didn't buy a certain companion that they really should have done. Otherwise, they would have creamed me as well. But this is a five-round game, and I called the winner midway through round two. You know, it was like, "Okay, you've got this start.

15:48 There's no way we're going to be able to beat this. You win." And it happened. And the main start is that there are not that many movement cards in the game, certainly not ones that give you free movement or easy tappable movement, like on-demand movement. He got one of those early, and it just meant that he could sail and get all these early quest cards that were, you know, gave you good easy bump and rewards and stuff. You know, just levels up some tracks, or, you know, a few points here and there, or some extra money is worth its weight in gold in the early game because you really do need to get those bonuses and have an early game engine going. And if you don't get an early game engine going, then it's GG because you just will not be able to catch up. But I could barely do anything because I wasn't getting these bonuses. But, you know, somebody could have a bunch of workers because they were, you know, getting the the cards that came up that just happened to give an extra worker.

16:38 But the person with the free movement could just basically go, "All right, there's a bunch of quest cards. There's no way you're going to be able to reach those ones in there, but there's some early ones, and one gives me money. Right, I'll free movement and just grab that." And I've got no way to stop him doing that. I've also got no way to do it first without tanking my entire round to basically say, "Yeah, I'll just put one meeple down, and then I'm going to go straight to summer and then do this movement." You know, why would I tank my own game just to stop them getting a card that's got a good bonus on it? It It just made it so that, you know, you really do have to do certain things in the early game, otherwise you're just going to lose. And I went for a strategy where I picked up a companion that said that hold a bunch of items and score for those items. So, I picked up a bunch of statues that were worth a lot of points. I did well with that, but it was a very boring way to play because you basically just bought a few cards and then that was it. Didn't do any of the movement. I finished earlier in every round compared to everyone else cuz I was slightly worker starved and it just wasn't that fun, you know, just waiting around, seeing somebody get so many bonuses and so much stuff and just walk away with the game. And the game has, again, a similar problem that Spearium had, which is a runaway leader issue.

17:46 If they get started and they're off on the roll, you ain't catching them up. And it's not helped by these two bonuses on the points track, eight and 20 here. You've got free tokens above your board that give you a bonus. And the ones you're going to pick are going to be a worker or money. You're never going to pick the levels up in magic and strength. I mean, they're it's useful, but compared to five money, which is a lot in this game, and workers, which are just infinitely useful, you're going to take those bonuses first. But, you only get those when you get past the eight and the 20 marks on the victory point track. So, if you're doing well early, you get to those first, which then gives you a bonus. It's like being in a race a car race, and it's like, right, whoever got to lap two first gets nitrous. Yeah, it's like they're already ahead. You know, they're they're ahead, they're getting points, they got a good engine. There's their reward. Why have you got to give them even more stuff to make sure that other people can't catch them up? It Yeah, this game has zero catch-up mechanisms and it really hurts because you know, if you play this game and you see somebody get off on a roll early, call it. They're going to win. And they will. You know, scores were not tight in this game, and I look at other games being played of this and I don't see score tight scoring either. Somebody runs away with the game and they stay as a victor, and it's just not I don't know, that just makes the game a little bit on the predictable side. And Spearium had the same problem. You know, Spearium is a game I liked, but it certainly wasn't my all-time favorite.

19:15 It had its problems. And this feels like it's just rinse repeating them, but then adding a new problem with the map board. Uh yeah, the map board is honestly not something I'm a fan of. You know, these quest cards which vary greatly in terms of how useful they are and how easy they are to do, but when somebody gets a companion that says they can ignore um quest conditions and all you have to do is just have a steady supply of magic in order to do it, which isn't hard to acquire, then with free movement they're just basically mopping up all these quest cards, getting bonuses, and then all of these bonuses are free. Cuz some of them you have to spend like a magic track or some or some money or maybe a worker, but a lot of them you just simply have to have the prerequisite. It's like, do you have free magic? Yes. Well, then you can have this tile that gives you income every round. Do you have two strength? Yes. Well, then you can have this five money right now. And it's just it feels like it's too much free stuff given to somebody who just happened to take Tommy the Horse in the early round.

20:13 I mean, there's even a thread on BoardGameGeek about Tommy the Horse being overpowered because it's free movement early, and so everybody's going to pile on this card, and I think that's what's going to happen in future games as well. I'm If I play this again, I'm going to see uh cards to do with early movement, and they're going to get dog-piled. I'm going to gun for them straight away. I'm not even going to think about any other cards. Like, nope, anything else is irrelevant. I need to get movement. I need to do the quest because that's going to make up for the cost any day of the week. And it's just that throws a bit of a sour note on the game, really. So, it's okay. I mean, I wouldn't want to play this with four. We played it with three, and it was already quite tight then. I I think that uh four players would just be a bit much. You know, you'd have a lot of AP to deal with, a decent amount of downtime, and it also would have a lot more punishing aspects with regards to the grid because if you get left if your workers get left with nothing to do then that feels horrible and it's a massive waste. In four players, you don't get extra cards. You might get a tiny bit of extra income when you lift meeples off, but then it's also it's already made up for the cards costing a lot more because there's four players worth of meeples on the table.

21:26 So, I would be hesitant wanting to play this with four. It's too tight, too punishing. But, you know, would it be too loosey-goosey with two? Is another thing. This is a hard thing to balance. It it it's going to come down to what you want. Do you want a punishing game that is very much a case of early game engine will decide the game and who can make the best early game engine. But, if that's your thing, then great. Play it. It's not a difficult game to learn. It's a It's not crazy long compared to a lot of other Eurogames. So, 40 you know, 90 minutes I think in the board game version rather than Tabletop Simulator I think would be pretty apt. But, I just I got too many issues with this that are repeated from the previous one and then the map thing just being another addition that it's not one that I'm desperate to return to. I think reviews for it have been kind of like, you know, good but not great. So, I you know, it's fine. It's a fine game, but I I'm not in a hurry to play it again not with these issues. I think they would just hurt me too much especially as every time I play it now, I'm just going to be playing the same way every time because why would I go for anything different? It's I know some people might disagree on that, but it's just the way it seemed and as I say, I I'm very good at predicting winners of games while I'm playing them and it's like, yep, this occasion called it on round two midway through round two of five. I might as well have just literally reset the game and said, yep, GG. You win. Let's reset and go again.

22:58 Does that make the round three, four, and five ultimately pointless, And your decision. A swig of the coffee. So, with that done, let's talk about you know, the topic for this one. And this came up as a bit of a heated debate with you know, the Slack channel with Grid Con and that. It's certainly getting more and more discussed. Now, it's the aspect of solo gaming in general. So, when I go on videos or when I talk about impressions of games and stuff, there's definitely comments I will make about whether I believe the game should be played with multiplayer in mind. And usually these games are multiplayer solitaire. And you know, your definition of multiplayer solitaire may differ from mine as to what is player interaction.

23:49 For me, player interaction requires you to really care about what others are doing on the table. There needs to be some direct interaction like I'm giving you this, you're giving me this, and you're what you do is directly influencing what I'm doing. But these aspects need to be something that you can't substitute with a die roll or a card flip. You cannot say that Hegemony is a multiplayer solitaire game, but you could say Arc Nova is kind of a multiplayer solitaire game. I'm certainly very conscious of what the opponents are doing though because of those green objectives. So, what the And that would be something you would find very difficult to substitute in a solo mode in a solo bot mode. So, I would argue that that would constitute some interaction in Arc Nova, but I'm not going to sit here and defend it as the most interactive game ever cuz it isn't. But you could you know, you can play Hegemony solo. But who the hell plays Hegemony solo? I mean, you need the interaction, you need the negotiation, all the banter and everything. It's like it is not a solitaire game. But I this debate sort of started because I was playing 60 Below and I gave first impressions on that before I did my actual review. And one of the things I said is, "Yeah, this game is a decent game, but what's the point in playing it multiplayer?" And you know, this caused a very heated debate. And I see where some of the points are coming from, but this is going to depend a lot on your attitude to what you want from games and what you what sort of games you want to play with what people. I don't want to play every

25:20 single game solo. I do not believe every game needs a solo mode. It's nice that solo players are being considered more in games and they should be, but not every game works solo. Sometimes you need the players. But 60 Below, I would argue, I mean, if I'll try and bring it up on the screen here, but 60 Below basically has you like going through Antarctica laying tiles down, taking worker spaces and maybe some expert tiles that other people might want. But you can substitute a lot of what 60 Below does with a bot. And it does because that's kind of what the argument stemmed from. You know, what you do on your player board with regards to these cards and that is entirely your own. It's done simultaneous with other players and you know, but you're only as slow as your slowest player. Sorry, you're only as fast as your slowest player. That's how it works. And so this bit with the storm cards and the expedition cards is all on you. So no multiplayer interaction at all from these bits at all. Not one bit.

26:24 Okay? Then when you get into this whole laying tiles and worker placement aspect, you have two things that would be influenced by your opponents. Worker going on the spot of which there are limited spots and somebody taking an expert tile, which is one of these little things over here on this track where basically you're limited as to what you can take. Somebody might take it. Now, people will consider that to be multiplayer interaction. So why why would you not play this with, you know, a full counter of four players and take the three hours plus three to four hours it takes to play this game? Well, when you play the solo bot in this game, it pretty much does all that anyway. You know, it has its card full of actions, it has its priorities, which mimic what a player should be thinking. It will build tiles and it will score points in a similar fashion, you know, and it's like, well, it's easy to pilot the bot and it's taking spaces that I would want to take.

27:22 It's putting tiles down, just like a player will do, and it's nicking expert tiles, just like a player will do. Why am I spending an extra two and a half hours playing this in what two and a half No, why am I spending an extra two hours plus, you know, playing this multiplayer when I could just play it solo and get the exact same feel. Um just 1 second, I'm going to just put the light on because it is definitely getting dark in here. One second. Oh. This is definitely like live podcast, live podcast. Here we go. So, uh you know, and so I made the argument with this game, like why would you not why would you bother playing this multiplayer? And I can see the argument both ways. Sometimes you just want people at the table, sometimes you consider that to Some people might consider that to be enough interaction, but for me, I don't.

28:12 And you know, people use this argument of, you know, it's it's an What is it? Why would you play this with multiplayer? Because I like playing with other people. Yeah, duh. I mean, for Christ's sake, of course we like playing with other people. That's one of the main reasons we play board games. But that's not an argument to say that a game is, you know, good to play as a multiplayer game just because you like playing with other people. I like playing with other people, for crying out loud. But certain games I wouldn't want to play with other people, and there are some games I do want to play with other people. You you Star Wars: Outer Rim is not desperate to play with other people. The solo is fine and four players will take a while. Yeah, there's only so much interaction in the game. But then of course New Angeles and Chaos in the Old World, I'm going to want to play with other people. Um Marvel Champions, I can play it solo and have a good time, but then it's good fun to play in multiplayer. So it works both ways. Twilight Inscription, do you really want to play that with loads of players at the table? I mean, you only interact barely with the person to your left and right. So, why would you play that with six to eight players like it can go to? It's pointless. Yeah, okay, there's other people at the table and you can socialize and stuff, but that does not warrant that is not the same as the game being good for multiplayer.

29:27 That's not how it works. You know, and some games are better played multiplayer. You know, and I want to play those games with other players. I don't want to play a fully multiplayer solitaire puzzle with other players as more often than I play it solo. But then I obviously want to play the ones that are good with other players with other players. The negotiation games, the social deduction games, the um you know, the the big heavy influential games like Hegemony and stuff, you know, those are the ones I want to play with more people at the table. Yeah, I want to play Mysterium Park with more people at the table. I want to play The Game with more people at the table. I don't want to play The Game solo. You can't, but you know, you see what I'm getting at, but you could play The Game three players. It ain't very good at three players. I want to play it with five or six. So, it's it's about picking the right games for the right occasion. But solo gaming is definitely something that needs to be considered a lot more because you know, with with solo gaming in general, you know, there's definitely a bit of an anti almost a bit like a hostility towards um solo gaming in respects where it's now seen as kind of like a oh god, we got to talk about the solo gamers again. Um you know, there've been articles about this and people have sort of chatted about it, but you know, some of the comments that you tend to hear like you know, it's like solo modes are stupid, you know, you know, why do we have to accommodate solo players when you know, we're playing this as groups. Board games are a social activity. They're not a solo

30:58 puzzle or anything and it's like and it's just you know, and the biggest one that I hate is why don't you just play a video game? I have video games that I play. Clear 43 expedition that I'm playing at the moment does not have a board game version of it. Deep Rock Galactic does. I still like to you know, bring it up as a board game as well as as a video game. You know, Baldur's Gate 3, Valheim that I'm playing tonight, you know, Stellaris that I'm playing after I'm done with this podcast, you know, the Stellaris board game's been in development hell for ages, you know, I'm probably betting the board game of that ain't going to be very good, but I'll still fire up the video game. You know, there's there's a time and a place for both. And honestly, Stellaris most of the time I play with other people. Anyway, as a solo I don't even play that on solo that much. I play it with two friends of mine. So, it's you know, there are definitely times in a time and places for solo modes in all forms of medium, but you know, it's it's a very disappointing attitude to use because yes, board games are a social activity. Yes, it's good to get new people into the hobby, but you can get new people into the hobby without playing a multiplayer game. You know, somebody might just be like, you know, I like to challenge myself and I'm kind of bored of doing Sudoku puzzles all the time or something. It'd be nice if I could do something that you know, test my brain, but I don't have a board game club near me. I'm maybe a bit introverted, you know, I prefer to sort of have my own me time. And you can go, well, have you tried board games?

32:24 Because board games could give you a very good solo puzzle challenge every now and again. Perfect for them. You know, why is that got to be a a better you know, why is that got to be a faux pas to do it in that? And there were some there were many reasons why a solo gamer wants to you know is why it's beneficial to solo game. Limited time, you know, people have got children, people have got jobs. I mean, I've got limited time. I can't be at a board game club every night. I certainly go to enough of them, but I can't do it all the time. There are times when I need to play the game solo and you know it might be a weekend time, you know, it's like nobody's around. Can't be bothered to travel to Southampton for a game for playing games. I could be like, well you know what, I fancy a quick game. Could whip out Earth, could whip out Cascadia Alpine Lakes, um and the recent one I reviewed Ashes and Ember. You know, I played it a little bit multiplayer, most of it I played solo because the game frankly functions more as a solo game than it does a multiplayer game. I mean, you basically just put more cards out and that's it.

33:26 That's it. That's all it is. The other than that, you might have some asymmetric abilities that you could use with the tribe cards to add a little bit of interaction with other players, but they're very specific. So most of the time it's a solitaire puzzle. Well, good, play it solitaire then. Um there's also uh pressure to learn the rules. Um you know, I mean this cuz you have there are certainly times when uh you know, you feel I've got to teach this game and not everybody's a good teacher and some people feel uneasy doing that, but if they've only got to learn the rules themselves, then it's a bit easier on them. Um you know, there are you might just be one of the few people that enjoys board games. You know, I only got into board games recently because of a club and I thought, you know what, I enjoy board games. I need a social club. Well, there was one nearby in Portsmouth. Great. I don't go to anymore. Different you know, dis- dispute shall we say, but uh yeah, um I certainly enjoyed the fact that I could find a local club, go to it, meet some new people and play some games and then the rest is history. But you know, not everybody has those clubs. Some people live in the middle of nowhere and have to travel miles in order to get to a club and there may not even be a good one nearby. So, what are they going to do? They might not have a bunch of friends and family that are interested in games, but they want to play some games. So, let them play it solo. What's wrong with that? You know, I mean, hell, Mark Dainty not Board Gaming, I mean, he'll play games multiplayer with us, you know, he doesn't play every single game solo, but his channel is focused on solo gaming because that's kind of how

34:57 he plays a lot of his games. He plays them solo. You know, time away from the family, a little break and stuff. And yeah, why not? Let the man do it. It's not exactly a problem, is it? Um there's also uh I mean, long sessions, length. I talk about game length a lot on, you know, this channel and on the videos I review. And well, yeah, games take a lot longer with multiplayer. Maybe you just don't have the time. And there are some games I'm willing to play for like 3 to 4 hours, but that's because the multiplayer interaction warrants the extra time. If I have to play a solitaire puzzle game for 4 hours, why? Why don't I just play that solitaire puzzle game myself for an hour and play a multiplayer game and several multiplayer games for the 4 hours with those other people. Wouldn't that be more fun for everyone? Um you know, the skill issue. I mean, you know, you might be really good at a game cuz you played it solo and then you just trounce everybody you play against. Might be the opposite way around, you know, you might just be somebody who plays a game casually and then you play it in a group with people who know the game really well, you get trounced. Doesn't make you feel good, does it? So, you know, there's a lot of reasons why solo gaming should be more embraced than, you know, by some people and not seen as like a a kind of anti- anti-Christer to gaming or something.

36:18 You know, there are some good advantages, you know, you don't have downtime in in a solo game because it's just you thinking. Now, a bot that's difficult to pilot um will certainly be a bit of a and devil's advocate to that, but if a solo bot is designed well, it shouldn't take up too much time and so you can spend the whole game just doing your own thing. You've got a freedom to choose all the different games that you want to play, you know, if they've got solo modes in it. You can be flexible. You know, you don't have to pack the game away afterwards. If you want to play it several times solo and you've got the time, then by all means just leave it out. Reset the game and go again. You can do that. Play it your own You can play it at your own pace. You don't have to worry about like keeping people like waiting or anything like that.

37:05 Sometimes it's actually easier to get immersed in a game. Although I might struggle on that one because some people say that. I've heard that mentioned like oh, I get more immersed in a solo game. That I'm not as keen on because there are some games I will play solo where I do get immersed, but I'm using things like music and ambient sounds and stuff to help me with that. You know, playing Sentinels of the Multiverse solo is perfectly immersive, but then playing Sentinels of the Multiverse with other players is perfectly immersive as well. Mansions of Madness, I've played that several times in the last year and that's always been as a group. Yeah, I can play it solo and be immersed, but then that's not to say I'm not immersed when I'm playing in a group. So, that argument I don't quite see as much, but I can I totally get that that could be an interpretation.

37:52 You know, you don't have to feel guilty about making mistakes because if you make mistakes, well, you're the only person that got hindered by it. You don't have to worry about ruining somebody else's day. You can play them when and how you like. I mean, if you play it with a group, you've got to get people around your house, you know, do meals and drinks. You've got to go to a club, you know, pay for the pay for the venue, buy food and drink and stuff like that. Obviously dress the occasion and things, but you know, if you're a solo gaming at home, you could pretty much do it in your pajamas, you know, in comfort. You know, I can just be like, you know what? I I can't be asked to go anywhere else today. I'm just going to be in my you know, PJs. But I don't wear PJs, but you know, I could just be in my dressing gown and shorts. It's just going to be an easy day. May go to the gym later, but we'll see. And then I can just brew myself a nice coffee, you know, or a nice drink, sit down at the table and just be like, you know, I'm just going to whip out some solo games. Yeah, nice, pleasant, quiet, put a bit of music on, and I'm in my element. You know, it's really nice.

38:51 Mhm. And and community-wise, I mean, you know, the the community in solo gaming is a lot better than it used to be. Uh you know, previously there didn't used to be that many people, but now there's two dedicated Facebook solo player groups. And solo players will debate on other groups as well, but there are two groups for just solo gaming. And there's a strong community. And they're generally quite friendly. I mean, yeah, people might disagree about your views on games, and I've had that as well, but generally, if you're just there to talk about a game and say it's solo and it's like these are my thoughts on it, generally you'll just get a decent amount of comments saying what they think of it solo. Um I mean, obviously, yeah, if you are kind about a game, you'll get far more engagement and nice stuff than you will if you criticize a game. That's just the nature of Facebook groups, unfortunately. But uh and I should know. But the Yeah, generally you get a decent community with solo gamers. You know, they know why you're playing it solo. They agree with why you're playing it solo because they sympathize with why you're doing it solo. Um so, there is a a good amount of reasons why solo gaming uh works. And the industry is definitely seeing this more. I mean, more and more Kickstarters come out and more and more uh you know, games have been released where, you know, solo modes are included. They're not all good. I mean, some of them are designed poorly or too complicated. So, and not every game

40:22 needs one. You know, some games can just survive perfectly well without a solo mode. You know, you don't always need one. But, sometimes it can work very well, and it's a nice alternative. I like playing group story-based games like Mansions of Madness and that with other players. It's great that I can literally just take one character out the box and play it solo though. I have an option. You know, I'm not saying that solo mode has to override multiplayer experiences. Um we can happily have both. Have a game that caters to both, but just take a decent amount of time to think about both and don't just bolt it on as a you know, an extra function. It's a good way to learn a game. It's a good way to teach a game um to yourself and that. So, it's and you know, it means that the game has more longevity as well because you'll get it played more often. You know, I mean, not I mean, I've got plenty of games here.

41:14 I'm not desperately chasing the next new thing. I'm not cult of the new. Um and one you know, some one of the reason of that is because I want more innovation in games and I'm just not seeing it. But, another reason could be that I want to play some of these games that I already enjoy. And another reason could be that some of these games are just good solo fun. Why do I need the next big solo game? I don't. It's you know, it it's all good in that respect. So, you know, that's kind of like a defense of solo gaming in general. The aspect to that I was talking about with 60 below, which is you know, what is the point in playing this multiplayer is going to be subjective at the end of the day. It's you know, you're going to have uh you're going to have a situation where you know, players will want to be at the table just because they want to be with other players. Great. Do that. But, that's not a defense for the game. That is you as a person wanting that. The game could still suck at multiplayer.

42:13 So, you know, let me look around my shelf cuz I realize I haven't really put up money pictures and stuff, but I mean is there anything I can think of that would qualify on my shelf as I look behind me for stuff that is mostly multiplayer solitaire and you don't really need other players. I mean Wonders Creatures is a potential. No, actually I think um I mean Wonders Creatures I'm looking at the two from Bad Comic Games here. Wonders Creatures and Life of the Amazonia. Wonders Creatures does have the worker placement aspect, but what you're doing with the cards is mostly a solitaire thing and the bot, you know, replicates the going on the map just as well. So, you could argue that Wonders Creatures is one that could be, you know, is there a massive need to play it multiplayer? I think Life of the Amazonia is a better example though. Life of the Amazonia is a really solid game.

43:08 Really enjoy it. Great light bag building game, but do you really need other players in this game? Not really because you're doing your own map. Your map is your thing. The only thing that the other players are doing is their own map and possibly taking certain meeple's before you do. That's it. And then you're just doing stuff on these free tracks, the water tracks. But, you know, that's just who gets what points. It doesn't block you from stuff apart from the occasional bonus now and again. That's replicated with a solo mode perfectly fine. You know, the solo mode in this works great and I honestly would probably prefer to play Life of the Amazonia myself than with other people because I get to do the fun stuff of creating my little map and trying to, you know, mess around with all these animal meeple's and stuff. So, yeah, I love the game, but I would ask myself, is there really a point to play in a multiplayer? Um um okay, what else we got on my shelf that could qualify? Um Ooh.

44:06 Forest Shuffle, that's a good one. Forest Shuffle, I Yeah, I do have a lot of nature theme games. This is just a thing. Um what can I say? I like nature. Uh but Forest Shuffle, cor blimey. Um cuz when you play that game, I mean, firstly, you need a massive table in order to keep everybody's cards together. I mean, this is a very neatly organized game of Forest Shuffle where, you know, people are able to keep all their cards condensed to this level, but cuz normally you need a lot more. But, yeah, Forest Shuffle with more players? I never want to play this game with more than three. I mean, the downtime um potential with people all deciding what they want to do, uh the mess on the table. The only thing that other players are doing is messing around with that clearing, and that is a cool thing to have, but that works just as well in a two-player game as it does in a three. And four and five uh because they go up to five.

45:00 Uh what is it? Two to four or three to five? Yeah, two to five. Who the hell plays Forest Shuffle with five players? That's just insanity. But, yeah, Forest Shuffle solo now that there is a proper solo mode for the game, works just as well. Um but, you know, I could argue that it's nice to play it with two to three players because of the clearing, you know, people denying each other cards and wiping the clearing at times when you wouldn't expect it and that. So, this one's a bit more of a gray area as to whether it's like is there a point to playing it to multiplayer. But, one to consider, yeah. Okay. Let's see what else. Okay, I'm looking down at the Fantasy Flight section. Most of Fantasy Flight sections can be played solo or group, and they work just as well with both. So, you know, especially with Ameritrash and story-based games, you probably will find that solo and group are kind of one in the same.

45:55 Uh Okay, let's try Pursuit of Happiness. Ooh, good. Yeah, that could be a good example. The Pursuit of Happiness. Um that game I play both solo and multiplayer. And this one is a different Oh, this is a bit of a different kettle of fish because in the multiplayer game you could argue that the only thing that multiplayer interaction is doing is somebody nicks the card you want. Yeah, granted, that is a fair comparison. Is there a point therefore the playing Pursuit of Happiness with other players? Um, I would say yes on this occasion. Although I must admit I'm a bit more hesitant to play this before because of the extra length and down time. So, I would skew more towards is there really a point? Probably not.

46:40 But Pursuit of Happiness has an advantage like some games where it's all about the banter and the storytelling. Because this is a Euro game from France, the game of life, the Euro game. And you are basically getting cards, you're paying a you're paying a cost and you're getting a bonus. I mean, that is what the nature of this game is if you boil it down strictly to a mechanical level. Why are there so many photos of just random components? Okay, there we go. But Oh, wow, is that a playmat someone's made? That's an interesting looking playmat. Ooh, okay. Is that playmat on Etsy? Hmm, well, it doesn't matter. I've got a decent playmat anyway. But you know, these cards, the main thing that the multiplayer is doing is people might take the cards you want. That's about it. You don't block each other on worker spaces. My cards don't directly affect them. You do have the group project cards now and again, but they only come up so often and it's only so often that people even take them. So, there's not a massive amount of interaction in this game. But man, you are talking with each other about the stories and the life people are leading. You're bantering, you're taking the mick. I mean, you you get such a fun experience from playing this multiplayer that you won't be able to replicate in a solo game. As much as fun as I have playing it solo. So, this is one of those times where I think there is a point playing this multiplayer even though the mechanics don't suggest it.

48:00 But people will then think, "Oh, why doesn't that apply to every game?" Honestly, are you bantering that much in 60 below? Do you banter that much in, you know, Nippon Seitou? You know, about like, "Oh, look at the factory he made. He's making coal and paper. Yay." No. You're not doing that at all. I mean, in a beige bureau or something. Are you really bantering with each other as I, "Ha ha, look what you did, you know, you have not pleased the church this much." It's like, Really? Beige bureau players are not the first people I want to invite to dinner. But the Yeah, so you're not getting the same feel about that. But here, you're laughing your out of your chair with some of the ridiculousness that happens with these cards and events and people you're doing. Like somebody tried to in the last game, I said like, "It will stress you out taking um uh was it three more than three different slots worth of cards and stuff?" I also said that if you also did the rule of, you know, "If you take a second partner, it will stress you out immediately and every turn it you can make it work somehow if you play for it, but it's not easy to do. I don't recommend it." And somebody basically went, "Challenge accepted." and tried to play the game with two partners. And it was just hilarious watching things sort of I mean, they succeeded in some areas, but in others they kind of spiraled out of control. It was just the story they told about doing it. Like, "Why does this not working?" Not just from a moral perspective, but also the gameplay perspective. And that's all the stuff you don't get as often in a solo play of this. So, you know, something that is

49:32 I suppose that's maybe maybe that's the defining factor. It's the theme. The theme of this game is so strong that when you play with other players, the immersion factor and the discussions are brought to the surface more. And that's why games like the Mansion of Madness and all of those Marvel Champions network because they're so thematic. Sentinels of the Multiverse and that. Arkham is not, you know, I mean it's a mechanical game. There is some interaction in it a little bit and certainly you get a bit of banter about people's zoos because the theme is reasonably well represented and it's an interesting theme. But Nippon's Ibutsu, for example, which I didn't like, you know, really that theme, does that theme really do it for anybody? Does that theme really come to the surface when you're playing that one and putting different color meeples on different spots to get bonuses and then you pay wages based on how many color meeples you had on your board. I mean, theme?

50:25 Yeah, I'm not sure that kind of works, but you know, nobody's sitting around discussing the finer points of the theme when they're playing games like that and some of the beige euros and some of the other very dry euros. I mean, we've got games coming out at the moment that are like, you know, you got Queen Alice, you've got Prague and Scene or whatever it's called and you've got couple of others which are just the mini games with the central mechanic thing. I've already got Age of Steam downstairs, but that's a pretty dry game as well. I don't find myself I mean, you can play Age of Steam multiplayer. I have a good time playing that solo, frankly. It's got a good solo mode in it. And so, you could argue that Age of Steam is one of those where it's like, is there a point playing it with other players? Not so sure, but then other players do get in your way. But then so do people in, you know, in the solo bot thing. So, maybe Age of Steam is a good example of one where, you know, is there a point to play it with multiplayer? Maybe not. Uh just trying to get it on the screen so you can see which game I'm talking about here. Whoop.

51:24 There we go. This is basically my go-to for bunch of mini games with a central mechanic theme, which is a lot of euro games at the moment. But this one is kind of like one of my benchmarks for this is the one you should really consider if you're going down that route. And the games I'm seeing coming at Essen that are repeating the same concept, they don't sound to be as fun as Age of Steam. I I I'll find out when I play them, but I mean, reviews for Praga and Seen or whatever have been fairly meh, you know, not not amazing. People have What's the What's the other one? Queen Alice. A lot of people are talking highly of Queen Alice, but it looks to be incredibly convoluted. It looks to have insane downtime and AP issues with three or more players, and that board in Queen Alice is so cluttered and busy and like just full of stuff that it's just going to make it a nightmare to get to the table. Well, I didn't rather just keep this one. But, you know, these sort of games you don't desperately need other players at the table. A solo bot that's designed well should be able to replicate people taking your die or taking your spot.

52:28 But, you know, the banter. I'm not playing Age of Steam bantering about who had the best computer system or who traveled the most around the UK on the mini game or whatever. And the mini games that you're getting in Queen Alice and the Praga and Seen and that, do people really banter that much about that sort of thing in the game? Voynich Puzzle that I didn't like at the start of the year that is like, "Ooh, you know, look at you doing the fountain tree spot a bit more. Yay, you're a bit higher on the green than you are the red." That links to this thing that I did last week, but the but no, it's not happening. I mean, I literally cannot even think of a punchline for that because it's so mind-numbingly boring as an idea. So, it's it Yeah, there are definitely games like that. Anything else? Let's have a think.

53:19 Um, A Wild Venture. Oh, yeah, Wild Venture. Now, that's a two-player game ideally, but you can play it solo. And as I said in my review, it's bloody good either way. It's a solid game, and I look forward to getting the expansions at Essen this year. This is a really good one from Pika Games. And yeah, I mean, if you play this solo, it's good. I would almost say it's did to play this with another player though. You can banter a little bit about what sort of stuff you're doing with these crazy little artworks and stuff, but the the the interaction in this game with like when somebody plays a gear item and how that works with another player, definitely is much more fun with a two-player version of this rather than playing it solo. And so, two-player games actually probably would come down to when you've got a choice between playing it solo or two-player, two-player would typically win. Um maybe Fields of Arle is an exception to that rule, but that's a very unique two-player game. But, yeah, I mean in Wild Adventure, I mean 7 Wonders Duel, I mean you can play 7 Wonders Duel in the solo mode um done as a print and play from Asmodee, but honestly, I'd rather play 7 Wonders Duel as a two-player. Um a lot of other games would be like that.

54:28 And you know, a lot of games know that they're better with multiplayer because they don't have a solo mode in them. Uh Isle of Skye is a very good example. Um Isle of Skye, uh game I still have on my shelf. In fact, I want to get that out at some point soon cuz I think that's just a really solid game. Don't get the Journeyman expansion. It sucks. It's garbage. But, get Druids expansion. It's a pretty solid one. But, this one, you know, where you're actively putting tiles out, getting other players to bid on your tiles or hoping they don't bid on your tiles cuz you want the tile for yourself, that is very interactive. And so, this game actually works with more players. It can work with two or three. Um Can you Can you play it with two players? I'm not sure. But, you know, it definitely works at a lower player count, but then it also works at five players. I'd rather play it at four, honestly.

55:15 But, yeah, you can play this with five and it's still pretty solid. It's just, yeah, it's best with three or four compared to two and five. And to be honest, a lot of Euro games are like that where three and four is always the sweet spot whenever they put the numbers two to five on there. But, Isle of Skye, yeah, I'd rather play this with a decent player. I mean, I it doesn't have a solo mode, but how would you even replicate this as a solo mode? It'd be really weird. it just would not feel the same. And I suppose that's the biggest thing to take away. What does it feel like playing it solo compared to a group? Now, you have to disregard the fact that you like playing with other people. That cannot be the sole reason that you are playing it as a group, okay? Yes, that applies to pretty much any activity you do. It'll be better with people, especially friends that you know, than it will be by yourself. But, is the game better with the more players, or are you just literally using that excuse as your sole reason to play it multiplayer? And this is what I am talking about in my reviews. I am disregarding that aspect, except for cases where like in Pursuit of Happiness and the story-based immersion ones and in Aeon where there is a clear reason why you could play it as multiplayer and it would surpass a solo mode, I am still going to comment whether a game mechanically warrants other players at the table. You may want to play it multiplayer, then good for you, go and do that. But, if the mechanics of the game do not warrant extra players at the table, I will call it out as a

56:47 multiplayer solitaire game and suggest that the game is best played solo. It's just the way it is, you know, so there's a lot of differing views on this, and you know, the discussion's always pretty cool on this area because obviously there's a kind of a divide between solo and multiplayer gaming, and everybody's got their own opinions, strong or weak, you know, well, when I say strong or weak, I mean how strongly do you feel about the whole solo versus multiplayer divide? That's more what I'm getting at. Um, not the strength of your reasoning. Um, it So, it's an interesting little topic, but yeah, it came up recently as a heated debate, and certainly I have my views that you're not going to convince me out of, and other people have their views that you're not going to convince them out of, but it's an interesting debate either way. So, anyway, uh we're getting on to an hour. I think that's a good time to wrap up. I need to get ready I need to edit this and get it online and get ready for a Stellaris game. So, uh thanks very much for listening. I hope this entertains you um on your weekend, or better still, on your journey to Essen.

57:46 If you see me at Essen, come and say hi. Unless I'm in a rush to get to a meeting, I will let you know if I'm in a rush to get to a meeting. But, otherwise, I'm happy to chat to you, walk with you, have a conversation. I mean, maybe not ask me all the time what's my favorite game at Essen, because I mean, it's going to be uh the same sort of thing said all the time. I'd say, "I'm just interested to see how you're experiencing Essen." Rather than what I'm doing at Essen. You know, I'll tell you what I'm doing at Essen when I do my post review. But, I'm more interested to hear how you're experiencing Essen, particularly if it's your first time in that. That's more interesting. But, yeah, come and say hi. Ask for a selfie, shake my hand, um and all that. It's all well and good. If you've got any food and drink on you, even better. But, uh I always like trying new treats and stuff. But, yeah, I hope to see some of you at Essen. If not, then by all means, uh just wait and see for my posts and that that I put up. Um but, I will catch you later. See you on the next Broken People Show. Take care. Bye for now.