The IV Studio Episode | BGSS ep_018

I will say though, if you ever design with friends, don't go on vacation mides because they will take your rle out of the game. >> We're trying to show up and make a lot like some people's favorite game of all time. Like that's what we're trying to do with each of our games. Um, and if you're going to get that [music] specific, you're going to make a game that a lot of people don't like, and that is totally fine.

>> Zach sat in on one of my play tests one time, and I remember this very clearly. He probably doesn't, but at the end he's like, "Hey man, um, >> shut up. I want to talk about [laughter] Yeah, I want to talk about >> I think that the worst thing that we could possibly do is bore you. >> Today, my guests really don't need an introduction.

Unless you've been living under a rock, you have seen Ivy Studios, their content, their games, and these two people in particular, Zach and Austin, who are both designers on games that frankly I love. Ivy Studios seems to be doing something different in the board game space. They are a publisher that I am so incredibly excited to see what they come out with next every single time.

And I have to say this interview was one of my absolute favorite that I have ever done. These two guys are incredible people. They have insane insights. The sheer number of awesome games that these two along with their team have produced is just staggering. And in this interview, we go through the origin story.

We go through all of the games that I love from them. We go through all of the games that are coming from them. and we go through their latest crowdfunding project, Alterara, which after hearing about has made me so excited to play this thing. If you're a fan of the board game secret show and you've liked any of the conversations I've ever had on here, this is one to stick around for.

And with all that said, let's welcome Zach and Austin from Ivy Studios to the Board Game Secret Show. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. Thank you for um being flexible. I didn't have a 30-minute buffer on my schedule, so all of a sudden somebody booked right before you in Latafia, so it was a really early one for me.

[laughter] So that's why I had >> Hey, was that the >> Board Game Hangover? >> Is that Board Game Hangover? Yeah, those guys are awesome. >> They were so cool. I got to tell you, like uh they are just as cool as you they would come off on their video. That's that's the fun thing about doing all of these is and getting to meet people from from everywhere.

I did Danny Garcia yesterday in Spain >> and then Board Game Hangover in Lafia. It's like so cool. Such cool stuff. And then it is >> literally awesome. >> The cool kids of board gaming here. Ivy Studios. >> Oh, >> I don't know if I'd call that. >> Oh, no. You know, no. You know you're the cool kids.

You know it. >> Oh, no. >> I've seen your stuff. quality, aesthetic, design. It's just all chef's kiss. So that's, you know, I'm gonna I'll kiss your feet for a little bit out of out of the gates. you all I think are like the I don't think anyone can do what you do but it seems like like your template is what should be happening with new publishers which is just like this incredible attention to detail and design and um I don't know quality I guess from everything from the content you put out the games you put out the the design um you know componentry all that stuff so I have I have to, you know, give you guys some props out of the gates, get you on my side a little bit.

But yeah, that's all. >> That was very kind, >> believe it or not. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, we cold open here. I just kind of start rambling a little bit and throw some questions your way. If we me meander, >> that's all good. I want to be respectful of your time and end on time here. So, um, you know, sorry if I uh if I ramble and pull myself back because that just happens sometimes.

I've had these go three hours and I know you all are incredibly busy, so I'm gonna do I'm gonna do my my best. [laughter] >> Well, thanks for having us. I I really appreciate it. It's It's great to >> I I love it when I love I love it. I love the the format. I love hearing other people talk about things and so I'm glad I It's It's nice to see someone doing interviews in the board game space with with creators.

I just I I enjoy that content a lot. That's so thank you for I didn't know how people would would kind of respond to it especially long form stuff because everything is just like tight let's 60 seconds your your long form can't be over 15 minutes even that is kind of crazy. Uh but people are actually watching these things all the way through and it's like what really you're actually making it to the end.

Like we're we're turning the head uh turning people uh back to the you know the side of of critical thinking and long form conversation and nuance you know all things that I think >> Yeah. Yeah. All things I think are missing in general right and then in the board game space we're such like quick hitters go into the comments you know whatever's the most reactionary.

let's all get fired up about it. So, I like to I like to meet the people behind all this stuff and just uh you know show especially in your case, you're not just a bunch of like money grubbing big corporate thugs. You're here to make art. [laughter] At least I hope so. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, that's my money.

>> Yeah, I know. >> 100%. >> That is that's the core um like commonality between everyone. Everyone's in this thing for the money. Like that's that's the one thing I've learned. >> Everyone's in board games for that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll do a recap of like my first 30 uh interviews and it'll be like Yeah.

Just the super cut of everyone just being really greedy and you're talking about all the [laughter] all the great stuff that they've been able to buy on this hobby. >> Uh so bring me back to the very beginning. Ivy Studios, you started as a design firm. That's probably the wrong language, but like where did this all start from?

>> Yeah. Uh, so Sam and Austin and I, we all went to school together at a tiny little school in Ohio and we uh Sam one day we we we studied film and music and we made a bunch of short films together. Um, and he's like, "We should start a production company." Uh, and so we moved to Nashville. Austin joined up with this us shortly after and we were making commercials.

Um and then we started uh we really started specialized in animation. Um and so uh it was awesome. We we we made uh animated commercials for 10 years. Got to work with uh clients like Nike and Amazon and Bad Robot and and all sorts of things. Um and it was a dream. We got to work with all these these these big projects and got to just learn how to make things for for a living for all these big big companies and uh got got paid to learn how to make art.

Um and got to do it with some of my best friends in the world. Um but over time really just wanted to find a way to use um the skills that we had, you know, accumulated, the the network of artists that we had, you know, gotten to work with over the years to to make something that wasn't, you know, just the ad for another thing.

Like we wanted to to make something that that was able to connect with people and um make something that we were we were passionate about and that that other people were passionate about. like we wanted to make the thing, not the thing talking about the thing. Um, and so we tried a little video game.

We tried um like a coffee shop. We like did some like fashion stuff. It was And then um Austin, I'm sure remembers it very well. I was like, "Look, I we love board [clears throat] games, Austin and I especially." Um, and I made board games as a kid and I was we take a couple weeks off for Christmas and was like, "What if you came over and we just like made a board game just I was just I just wanted to do it for fun." Um, because I just it was such a fond memory of like childhood of making board games with my friends.

Um, and I was like, "Let's just do this." And then we did it. Uh, and that was Moon Rakers. Um, >> really? You mean moon rankers the gates? >> That simple. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean I mean I How long did it take Austin after that? That that >> that >> Oh gosh. Uh we had the first idea in December like you said and then I think around March or April my professional opinion is we need to stop working on this because the game sucks.

>> And then >> by the fall we by the fall we had a prototype we liked. start working on art Idol. Uh was the time >> everything sucks until it doesn't. Um >> what year was this? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that would have been 2018. >> Okay. >> And then we launched in 2019, delivered in 2020. >> That's insane.

Uh and then yeah [snorts] from there uh we I continue you know we still animation studio um and still doing that thing and Austin we were just like Austin we want you to head up the board game division uh he was doing you know relationship and sales at the time uh and we're like no this is going to be like a thing like we you know let's let's try and make another one.

Uh and so >> can you say division? Is this a demotion? No. Yeah. [laughter] >> It was basically I was grossly underqualified to run a board game division and they were like, "Hey, Austin, you'll you'll do this. Go ahead." And so I kind of split off from the animation studio and was the one person full-time on games, but the animation studio was supporting the games the whole way as well.

So this one break, how much give me a percentage. How much of uh Moonrakers was done? >> True. When I when I started on it? >> No. Well, no. No. During the winter break, right? You like you you designed Moon Rakers. Like what? So, the reason I asked this, let me preface. Danny Garcia designs games in his head before anything goes down.

He'll do it in a few days. It depends on if stuff just kind of flows in there to solve different problems. And he works on games at an insanely feverish pace. So, I'm wondering how fast that first one was for you. [laughter] >> No, not fast. Uh, we're pretty fast now. >> Yeah. >> What do you think, Zach?

>> Yeah. I like I would I don't know if like anything from that Christmas break made it into the final of Moon Rakers. It was It was just a totally different [laughter] thing. >> Uh, yeah. Not a deck builder. >> Yeah. Well, it was a deck builder. So, the biggest change was what you were deck building towards.

So, originally you were like fighting bad guys. Like there are big ships that you had to kill by like playing a lot of cards and playing a lot of damage. >> And that switched to like a contract system where you're just trying to fulfill a certain number of icons by playing out your hand. And that was the big change that made it fun.

It just was not fun because we were literally the enemies had their own decks and were playing decks against you. And so you were running an Ottoa for a multiplayer game. It was not fun. [laughter] >> One of the things I hate the most is Ottoas. >> And and back then there's no there's no process. Like there's no sense of like what does it feel like to have done this before?

What does it feel like to be finished with a game? Like you don't know any of this. You're just like blindly, you know, stabbing in the dark like is this anything? Uh, and then I it's so long ago. I have such a hard time remembering like how it all came together. But, uh, we just kept going. We kept going until we we found something that we thought was fun.

One of the original goals with that was like we had been playing a lot of Dominion. We really like Dominion. I still love Dominion. Uh, but the the type of games that our team really loves has generally a lot of player interaction and Dominion just doesn't have a lot of that. And so basically that that was like the whole premise of what we started is like one can we make a game that feels like you're going on missions in space with your friends and then two could we make a game like Dominion that has a little bit more like I can do something on your turn and like we can you know negotiate work together [snorts] um and then eventually we got to Moonraers and people bought it which was crazy.

When did you believe enough? Like what was the thing the impetus for creating the division? Like that seems like a huge leap. >> It it was more that so Zack Zach had already talked about how he and Sam wanted to start making products, not just make the ads for the products. And so everyone knew that we wanted to be doing that.

And so we had tried a couple times. We had a video game called Bouncy Smash that we were promoting around the same time. Um like you said, they had some short films. And so it wasn't as much that we knew Moonrakers was great. It was just we were in a position to try new creative things. And my position as the relationships guy and the person getting work for the animation studio became a lot less necessary because we had a couple of very large clients bringing in tons of work.

And so my time got freed up at the same time we had this idea. Uh and so I was able to run with it. Did you get enough time to do this? Meaning like when you created this, did you realize how much work it was going to be to actually get this thing into people's hands? [laughter] >> No. I joke that I might have said no.

Uh when they asked me to to run the division if I knew how much work it was going to be. Uh just just fig figuring out like international logistics, international production, like those two alone were like a full-time job learning. Yeah. just like and honestly if there weren't such great pillars of the community willing to share information like Jamie Stagmire um I had a lot of help from Druid City.

I'm blanking on his name which is embarrassing. Um yeah I can't think of his name right now but there are a lot of really really nice people in the industry that were like oh yeah you should talk to these three factories. Oh yeah I use this logistics company and they'll hold your hand through the whole process.

And so the amount of friendliness in the industry that we experienced in the first six months was so pivotable in us being able to launch our first game. >> So you you mentioned that you were severely unqualified. I don't know if I'm quoting that correctly. >> It is that correct? What's your strategy there?

Was it just to reach out to as many people like you mentioned Jamie Stegmire? How did you connect with Jamie? Like where do you go? How do you go from zero to 100? >> Yeah. So the relationships and people are my strong suits and so connecting with people in the industry and and learning was was one of the main ways that I tried to to get my feet under me.

Uh I mean Jamie just alone through his blog posts you can back in the day you could learn how to run a campaign just off of those. >> Um but the uh the industry has definitely changed now. I wouldn't recommend that for for someone getting started right this second. But yeah, it was it was a commitment to learn and a commitment to figure out what other people were doing well and try to take pieces of what a lot of different people were doing and make something new.

Um, as far as strategies go for Kickstart launching and everything else, we were blessed to start with a company behind us that could make visuals and make ads and had experience running ads for our own games. Um, and then we were able to partner with people like the Dice Tower. We actually worked with Geek and Sundry way back when for a Moonraakers video.

So, it jumpst started kind of the audience for us because we didn't spend uh we went to Gen Con before and tried to drum up, you know, interest there and those type of things, but we didn't spend the two or three years that someone like Kinson Keys, for instance, did promoting Galactic Cruise. I think Kinson Key is the poster child for what a new publisher should look like.

Uh I don't know if you've interviewed those guys ever, but they're >> No, not yet. They grassroots they grassroots uh developed the the audience for three years before they launched um Galactic Cruise. And that's what that's what I would do now if I had to start over. But obviously we we sustainable just go >> with with I know this is there's a glut of money, right?

Yeah. Exactly. Right. that that would be ideal to have a second job, work 80 hours a week, you know, grow grassroots your your campaign for multiple years, but like does that >> that's got to be an outlier, right? >> It's an outlier for sure. And for us, it was my full-time job and they were paying me.

And that's why six months in, I was like, "Guys, we should stop paying me to do this because the game is not fun. I don't know what I'm doing." And Zach and Sam were like, "No, you've got this. Keep trying. We'll make the game fun. Great leadership right there. We believe in you. >> Yeah. No, it it was really good.

>> Zack, did you believe in >> have people's thing? >> Or you [laughter] just you're just trying to get you just trying to get him to stay busy. >> We're just like, gosh, can't believe this guy. He figure we figure this out. >> What are we gonna have him do? >> No, I mean, >> I I mean, it was just like it was something that we really wanted to do.

And it was just fun. Like, it was just fun. And it still is just fun to to, you know, design on these games. Um, and so from the beginning it was so Max is the the the third guy in our design team. So it's me, Austin, and Max. Um, he was our technical director at the time. It's like a 3D um wizard and and all he would basically step in and set up the you know very technically minded.

Uh the the world of 3D is just very deep. Um and Max is one of those guys you can kind of throw into any technical challenge and he'll he'll figure it out. but also an avid lover of board games. And so, uh, >> yeah, >> I I I couldn't imagine designing a game alone. I mean, it's just it's one, it's I just think it'd be a lot less fun, and then two, it's like you get tired and you don't have an idea, and it all feels awful, and then you can rely on your your teammates to come in and have an idea that you would never have.

And I think that's um that that was there right at the beginning. I think we just like uh we we we work well together and we we're able to, you know, we we all very much believe in the best idea winning and we are all you have an understanding of like we're just trying to make the best games that we can and um and you know try to have a good time while we're doing it.

>> Do you ever have multiple best ideas at the same time that contradict each other? >> Yep. [laughter] >> Oh yeah, but but mine are the best though. Uh, I was gonna say, what's the tiebreaker? [laughter] >> What's the real dynamic? >> That first sounded like PR, so I want to get to the bottom of this.

[laughter] >> We actually have Zach on camera saying, "We're gonna try it your way, but we're going to do it my way." And he swears he didn't say that. But >> but I promise you, >> I gotta find it. I gotta find it. But no, um, we >> we have a commitment to play testing ideas that we think are bad. Like if if someone on the team's like, "Guys, I know this is right." Like this this is a good pathway.

And the other two people are like, "No, that sounds awful." There's never like, "We're not going to do that." It's like, "Well, we're gonna we're gonna >> Yeah, gotcha. That used to happen on my phone all the time." [laughter] >> How embarrassing. >> We're gonna play test it. It's so embarrassing. Anyway, [snorts] we're gonna play test it and then we're going to see if it's good or not.

And yes, there's a little bit of a chip on the other people's shoulders to prove it's not good. But the play test will prove if it's good or not, >> right? >> Uh are there third parties with the play test that are the deciders really? Or is it you all play testing be like, "No, that idea still sucks." >> It it depends on what stage we're at.

If we're late stage, it goes to external play testing. If it's early stage, it'll it'll all be internal. Um, so yeah, we we usually are trying to find the best >> solutions together before shutting it out to public play testing. So >> yeah, I was a big proponent. I I managed a team where we solved problems, not board game problems, and we often had kind of conflicting ideas around uh how to solve a particular problem.

And it really was just like let's let's put pressure on your idea and let's test and let's see really just use a scientific method to kind of figure out where we should go on this. But I would imagine board games sometimes could be a little bit more subjective, like not as easy to tell. >> Or is it is it pretty black and white to be like, "No, that does feel better." >> At every stage of the process, I think there's like there's many forks in the road.

>> Um, and so a lot of times we will at the early stages, one of us will be like the quarterback for the beginning of the project, right? like we're in making the actual prototype, you know, like Austin's got like three ideas he's working on. I've got two I'm working on. Max has two he's working on.

And we'll regularly have just like brainstorming sessions where it's just like, you know, what what's you know, what are we excited about? And then like they'll pitch this other idea and then I'm half listening to Austin's idea and then that gives me a different idea over here that I'll write down and then make a different prototype out of.

And so at that early stage, whoever is kind of the quarterback of the the prototype generally, like they're the ones whipping up the like the ugly version. Um, and so they'll make a lot of those early calls because at that point it's just blue sky, right? It's just like it could be this. [clears throat] Maybe it's a deck like what if it was a deck builder is like a conversation that that gets said at least once on every prototype.

>> It's like I would do that too. What if it was a deck? If I were designing for you, I'd be like let's just do a deck builder. >> [laughter] >> What if it was >> so fun? >> And >> I did bet to Zach last week. >> Yeah. With negotiation. How about that? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Player screen. What if there was a player screen and hidden bid?

>> We need hidden information negotiation. I know this is new, >> but just hear me out. >> Uh and and so I think there there is like someone who's like point on the the project until it become until we're like, okay, there's something here. And then at that point it's like who knows what whose idea is anything like it it truly becomes the the the team designing a thing and it doesn't and it changes so much even from that point.

It's just like like I think back to the realm of reckoning um which is shipping right now. Um and like I remember the very there was [snorts] a there's a specific play test I remember it really well where the three of us were playing it and we're like we're going to make this game. Um, and it was still pretty bad, but there was just like the core was there.

Um, and and from there it changed so so so much like and and it all just kind of jumbles together, but it's at some point you cross the threshold of like this is like this is something special and worth like committing to and then then we all three jump on it and now it's just like >> yeah that that's where like the true you know team effort comes in.

Mhm. >> I remember that game specifically, Zach. We got it to like 80% of what I would say ready to launch. And we just kept on having to go back to the drawing board because we could not get it over the finish line. And so we'd go back to like 60% to ready. And like I remember just arguing, guys, we got to go back to that 80%.

We got to go back to that 80%. It was so good. And like luckily Max and Zach pushed back against that. Just like yeah, like it was super fun, but it had these four problems that we cannot figure out a solution for. So, we have to completely go back to the bottom to figure out how to solve that. And it it is really interesting.

Sol like solving those problems with with Max and Zach. I will say though, if you ever design with friends, don't go on vacation midesign because they will take your RDL out of the game. >> They they constantly wait for me to go on vacation and then if there's a Rondell in there, they're like, "Yep, it's out.

>> It's out." You don't ever go on vacation. >> Well, that's what >> when Ivy Studio Go [laughter] ahead. No, go ahead. >> When Ivy Studio comes out with a Rondell game, you'll be like, "Austin skipped a vacation because that's the only reason it's in." >> Yeah. >> Are there any Rondell's in uh in in the process right now?

>> Yeah. >> I have one. I have one, but they keep saying no. So, >> why don't we like these? What's What's like the core design flaw? >> Uh I think it's a me problem more than it is a random. >> That question wasn't for you, Austin. We know you like those. Oh, good, good, good, good. [laughter] >> I don't like I I genuinely don't hate them.

It's just every every time they are like in a thing, it's just like it the game naturally in my opinion just moves away from it. It's just like it it has to be I think the central mechanism and then you're always stripping things away like you're always taking stuff out. Um and just I think just I think it's happen stance.

I think it's just that has always been the thing to strip away and then you take it away and you're like, "Yeah, I didn't miss it. >> I didn't miss it." >> A rondelle could be like a little miniame module, you know? I don't know. Uh Austin, what's the best rondelle that you've played? >> Uh the game is Chinese Zodiac, I think is the name of it.

I don't know if you've played this, but um it has different >> Yeah, it it's got a a spinning mechanism for action selection, and if multiple people take the same action at the same time, it makes it more powerful or less powerful. And so, like, what actions are available and how powerful they are? It's constantly rotating.

It's It's really neat. >> Is STI technically a rondelle? A crazy um constantly morphine rondelle, maybe? because I'm trying to think of one that I've played with that I've really enjoyed. I love STI. Uh but yeah, I don't know. >> The really famous one right now, but I haven't played. Go ahead. >> Oh, I don't I don't think I would say it's a Rond because it like to be a Rond is like this turns to you and now you're doing a thing on this part of it, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah, you're right. >> Steady is like very cool with it like planet spinning mechanism. Um but I think it I still can do stuff on the other side of the rondle or whatever. But Formage is amazing. I thought that was really fun. >> Yeah, Formage I've I've grown to like a lot more. My wife didn't like it, which I was surprised at.

It seems like her type of thing, >> but Formage is good. >> I think that's probably the real popular one right now that I haven't played that I want to play. So >> Oh, you haven't played Formage? >> I haven't. Seems like it'd be up my alley. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's on BGA. I don't know if it's still there.

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And now, back to the show. Uh you mentioned leads. Um who gets to lead the project? Is it someone that has the initial idea or someone that has bandwidth at that given time? >> Yeah. I don't it's it's someone is leading it until it we we commit to it basically. And so we'll just all have different prototypes.

And then I I don't think we have as far as game design goes, we don't have a like lead designer on any of our stuff like true right like true true team effort. Um and so it's really just like we'll all I think at the beginning stages each idea needs like a champion like a lead where it's just like you you like you're thinking about it and it's I also think it's better like before it gets to the first play test stage.

It's like not worth jamming on too much because you just you It's amaz you think we'd be better at this. Like you think you design however many games you design at this point and you get in there and it's just like oh this is amazing. No, this is like you don't know anything until it hits the table for the first time.

Um and so which is a real bummer because I've got two prototypes that are unplayed right now and they're perfect in my mind right now. They're just perfect and then I then we'll play them and then they then we might abandon them immediately. So, so we we find that it's better to like the three of us all just have a couple ideas going and then like we'll play them and play them and most of them never make it past that first play.

Um and so but when they do then it kind of stops having a like lead and we decide as a team like all right we're gonna we're gonna keep going with this one. How many games are currently in that stage right now where just people are kind of tinkering with them by themselves >> that might not get committed to?

>> 10. >> Wow. >> Yeah, I have Well, yeah, it also depends, but there are some that I killed that might make a comeback. I have >> I have two that I'm I'm very excited about and I know Max >> Max We just killed one of Max's. Although I I I don't know. I like the last one we played, Austin. Um but I feel like you two are not hot on it.

Um, and yeah, so I think we have six that we're like serious about. >> Um, >> yeah, >> the and the fun part is is like, well, there's a lot on the cutting room floor at IV, right? A lot of a lot of prototypes get shelved. A lot of mechanics get cut out of games. And um, a good example of them being revived is actually the smallbox games.

Um, Pillars of Fate was a um, direction that we took Scales of Fate in at one point and then we're like, this is the wrong direction. Basically tabled Pillars of Fate and it was not coming back. Uh, Scales of Fate was finished. We were really, really proud of it. And then we were like, okay, let's spin up some small boxes to launch at Gen Con this year.

And I was like, guys, that lane battler that was in the Veailed Fate universe was almost done. It just wasn't it wasn't a big enough launch to justify it on Kickstarter. let's let's like resurrect that. And it's really fun >> doing the small box game line now because like for a long time our games had to have a certain level of production and mechanics to justify a Kickstarter launch and now we don't have to clear that threshold anymore and that's brand new for us as of last year.

>> So yeah, it's been great. >> Do many of these smallbox efforts start as larger games that do hit the cutting room floor and then get revived? >> That's a good question. Uh, >> no. >> What do you think? >> I feel like uh I think no. I think I think Pillars of Fate is the standout as one that got revived.

The one that is uh funniest to me is that I had been jamming on a long time for a timeline game. And the whole idea was that there was a timeline that like threearters of the players were trying to put perfectly back together and order cards that were face down. Uh, and then there was one person that was trying to mix them up.

And when Zach and I were talking about smallbox games, I was like, "Oh, this is one. This is one." And so I told Zach the idea and he was like, "Well, what if the game is just mixing it up and it's all the players playing against the game?" I was like, "Oh man, I love that idea. That's a wonderful idea." I went to a con and that was a Friday.

I was on the way to the airport and we had that conversation. When I got back on Monday, Zach was like, "Austin, it the idea works." And I was like, "What idea?" He was like, "Well, I prototyped it on the weekend and I played it on Monday and it was fantastic." I was like, "I still don't know what game we're talking about." out and he was like, "Your card ordering game that you were talking about, like it's really great." And I was like, "How is this how is this already done?" It was just the weekend.

Anyway, so I played it and it's like 90% of what uh uh Time to Panic is now. I think it was pretty close. Uh and so like that was an amazing example of like an idea that wasn't going anywhere was brought to the bigger team and Zach and Max jammed on it and made something great. >> They just had to get rid of you once again.

Not only to kill your ideas, but to bring them to life. >> No, I'm sorry. [laughter] >> Austin goes on trips and me and Max are like, "It's time. It's time. [laughter] >> Let's bring out all his stuff. We're going to rip it apart." Or [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Well, that's good. He doesn't have to do a lot of the work, you know?

He just comes up with a brilliant idea and then you all just take it to the finish line. IV should start paying me on vacation. [laughter] I mean, >> yeah, because cons are vacation, right? When you go to a con, it feels like a vacation. >> No, >> I'm talking all expenses paid, Zach. >> Oh, I see. I see.

I see. I see. All right. All right. That's fair. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh to to to your original question at least for me I think it is I generally am starting an idea with like oh this is going to be small um or this is going to be big um because I think I think it's really hard to design a small game.

I think it's for me it's like I think much harder to design design something that's lighter and interesting to me personally. It's just like there's no room for anything that isn't awesome, I guess. And like I think a lot of the the uh the interesting stuff about the mediumweight games, which is where like traditionally we've lived, are the like intersections of multiple things in cool unique ways.

But when you strip down to like a smallbox game or like a game that's shorter or a little bit more approachable, it's like >> you don't get those like the interesting mashing together of like multiple ideas, like five different ideas. You like maybe get two, right? And it's like if those if those aren't amazing, like you're going to see it right away and it's just like, well, this is boring or this is like not interesting or I don't know, like all of its flaws are just like right there.

And so I think you just like you just the design process feels so different because it's like it's just a small idea and like if that small idea doesn't work it's just garbage. Like it's just like okay well that's on the cutting room floor. Like this is nothing. Whereas like a a a bigger game like we're often coming with like okay what if these like these five ideas all came together and then you're just like okay cool like three of those were interesting.

Um let's and like worth going on. let's throw away the other two and swap in two other modules. Um whereas like the I don't know to me it is a different mindset. I don't I don't know if you feel that way, Austin. >> It's oh it's way easier to kill a smallbox game just because it's like it's one core idea.

That work day doesn't work it's gone. The one one of the kind of common things that I'm hearing from designers is they start always start more complex and typically the designer prefers to play. They're they're kind of hobbyists in general. So that's the type of things that they like to play which are interconnected mechanisms.

You know they have all these really great ideas and the tough part is really stripping them down. So starting at a small box where you have probably way more ideas than can even fit in that particular design in that weight class has to be really difficult and I think you kind of spoke a little bit to that.

>> Oh yeah. Even there there's a design that I think we're maybe gonna I don't have time today but play test early next week and I'm already like oof there's too much going on in this >> but like I I think that's fine. And I mean, we'll see, but I I just think like there's there's one too many things here, but I don't know which one to pull yet until we play it.

>> Um, but I can already sense that. I I hope I'm getting better at sensing that before the first play test of like maybe I should even just cut that before we play. I don't know. >> One small box game I can't stop playing right now you all sent me was Moon Rollers. I That's the one that's throwaway that I was like, "Oh, I don't I don't even really care about this." And holy crap.

And I think it's it's interesting because I love powers and abilities, right? So it's it's it's in the uh Moon Rankers universe. And the really interesting part to me is this. Um I don't know. I guess there's a couple different interesting parts about those cards. Obviously, you're trying to get the powers and abilities, but you're also, you know, maybe trying to steal the card from somebody that's already done a lot of work on it or vice versa.

Like there's this really like interesting puzzle. It doesn't feel like a small box game. You know, chucking dice is obviously really fun. There's even strategy around that. Like, hey, I'm not going to commit everything I can. I want to roll even more dice, give myself a better opportunity later on. There's like so much in that little design that uh I just I absolutely love.

We I think I played 20 times since since I got it, more than anything else. Oh, that's awesome. [laughter] >> That that you all said. Buting, you know, there is I think you do I haven't played a lot of In fact, I think that's the only smallbox I Studios game I've played. Um, but it didn't feel like your typical smallbox game.

Is that intentional? And is that do you try to keep those interesting interconnected mechanisms together? I mean, I know that's kind of counter to what you just said, but I noticed that in numer I'm so glad you brought that up because I was about to bring up um that we have two friends that we've worked with in the past and and hope to keep working with that join me, Max and Zach, as as design team.

So the first one's Robert Hikini and he is the the person that came on board for Moonrollers and designed Moonrollers with us. Um and yes, the the hope for Moonrollers was to emulate some of the feelings of a heavier game which is Moon Raiders and and feel like you're still negotiating even though it's not a negotiation game at all, but you're like, "Hey, you have to finish that card so that Max doesn't finish that card or he's going to end the game and neither of us want the game to end right now." Yes.

And there's like that that kind of thing happening around the table. And obviously it looks like Moon Raiders. And so for that one specifically, it was like we want it to feel more like its bigger brother than a very light smallbox game. So I I think 100% yes. And then the other person that I didn't mention is Toby Sarnell.

Toby has worked with us in the past on Tend and is working with us right now on Alterara. Um and so we've basically uh just injected them into our team of MAX and Zach. And so we have four designers on those games and generally like me, Max and Zach generally have the initial idea and bring it to the team.

That's what Robert and uh Toby are doing with those games. They're having the initial idea. They're getting a play testable version and they're bringing that to us and we're developing it together. >> You mentioned Tend. I haven't played Tend. I love rolling rights. Been trying to get my hands on it.

But is that a small box game that got out of hand for you guys? No, it's a bigger box game that got smaller. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a small version. >> Oh, yeah. Dude, it uh to Toby's crazy man. Uh he he he makes these huge amazing systems. That's why it's it's honestly it's so wonderful working with Toby because he he designs games that like the three of us would never make.

Um like Tend is not a game that we could have ever come up with. Um uh and we we got connected with to Toby's in the video game world. Um he's working on the bizaar right now. Uh but he was I I met him I had a bunch of friends at Dots uh mobile mobile company game. I don't if you ever played Dots on mobile.

He he was the game designer on Two Dots. Um >> and anyways like very puzzly kind of mindset. Um very great like systems and like engine game designer. Um, and I I don't know how he comes up with half of this stuff. Um, and when he came to us with his mutual friend at DOTS was like, "Hey, I you know, one of the guys who who we worked with for a while, he's a bunch of board games that he wants to show you." And the first game he showed us actually is Alterara, uh, which is coming out on June 9th.

>> Uh, and I was like, "Ah, this is like interesting. It's a little much. It's a little much. Do you have anything else?" Um, and he was like, "Well, I got this game and I got this game and I've got like and I've got like a kind of like a like a farming like Stardew Valley like game." And I'm just like that one.

Let's play that one. Um, and >> yeah, and we fired it up and I was like, "We're doing this. This we got to do this." >> So, you looked at that and you didn't say it was too much. >> Oh, it it was, [laughter] but like I could see the like I couldn't I didn't see the light of Alterara yet. Like I didn't Austin and Max saw the light of Alterero way before I did.

They knew something was special there way before I did. >> But to me like I'm I'm I'm a creative director and so like I'm generally in charge of the theme and like just seeing the end product from the like the the the ugly version, right? Like that's my job is like seeing like what is this going to look like?

How are we going to get people like hooked into this world? And I was like oh like I know what I want to do with this theme-wise. like I know that people are h like they like I just know we can like people are going to connect with this is really just like I was like there's enough of a core here. I know people are going to connect with this.

Um, and and to your original question, it was like we we tried a lot of stuff after Toby, like we were like, "What if this is a legacy game? Like what if there was like all this extra stuff and like we tried so so much with it and >> Yeah. [laughter] Well, >> yeah. I uh we we're No, I shouldn't, but we will return to the 10 the universe uh in the future.

Uh >> is there a small version to be had in that tend universe? Oh yes, I >> we have a small game. >> Well, graph. >> We have a small game that is graphed, but it does not really feel like playing tend and it wasn't intended to. It is just the same art style, right? >> I do think that there is a a smaller fli that is available there that we could build toward eventually.

We're not actively doing that though. >> Has anyone said that that was too much? I mean, you it's had a really great response. Everyone I've talked to absolutely loves it. In fact, I talked to The Grove and I think he bought like three copies or something like that when he backed it. Um, and he's and he loves it.

I think it's he said it's his favorite game. Eli over at the Grove, shout out. Um, >> that's amazing. >> Is had some people push back. I'm like, dude, this was just way too much for me to figure out. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Sometimes it's too much for me when I'm playing it. I'm like, [clears throat] oh, what am I what am I doing here?

But that's like that's part of the fun. It's really just like do you like that kind of game, right? Like I I think it is it like Yeah. Like I said, I'm just like I get a AP on it, but it's the kind that I like, you know? It's just like, oh, like this is going to waterfall into this. It's super crunchy.

>> Well, David, you you asked about push back on it. I mean, Tend was one of our worst, not worst, it was our lowest crowdfunding of new games around it. Uh, and so the push back was, it's a flipping right. Why does it cost this much? And [clears throat] the answer was is there's a heck of a lot of stuff in [laughter] there.

It is a heavy slip and rice scratchers. It's dense. >> Yeah, it has scratch off. And so there was definitely some education around uh just what tend was that had to be done because it's not uh a normal flip and right. [clears throat] And so >> it it did have that push back of this seems too heavy for a flip and right seems too expensive for a flip and right.

But once we get people to play it, it it overcomes those uh it overcomes those challenges, which is why it's done so well post Kickstarter. Um so yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is this for like a you know the three sisters fleet the dice game or like sort of heavier roll and roll rights? We absolutely love those in our our house.

Or is it more Hrien's wall which is like far edge complexity and I shouldn't say roll and write and writes verbin right flipping right. >> I think it's between them. >> Okay. just because of all of the different content or the actual decisions you're making have that many different dimensions that they're kind of like interacting with.

So intend you're often not doing all of the different types of actions. Like you just won't touch some elements of the game in a lot of playroughs to midmax >> to minmax to optimize. And so there's just a lot to explore in Tend and I would say in Hadrien's wall like I touch almost every aspect of it when I play it.

>> Um and it's just really really crunchy and heavy. I think tend if you were using all the mechanisms at once would be that heavy but you're not being asked to do that. Um you're you're focusing in on on a strategy that you think is good. Um it's going to get crunchier with expansions. So we'll see we'll see what happens when we make those.

>> So those aren't in development yet. Ah, I mean, we're we're working on expansions for all of our titles, including Tend. So, uh, we we we [laughter] like to return to all of our titles. So, >> so there's not I'm trying to do the mental math. There's not enough people at IV Studios to do all of this stuff.

How do you balance that going from project to project? Are you working on everything all the time? Are there sprints happening? Like, how does this actually how do you divide and conquer on all this stuff? Well, we have we So, obviously, it's not just me and me and Max, right? >> We've got um we've got an amazing team of people.

We've got uh freelancers. Um we've got a nice wonderful big spreadsheet that keeps track of all of our dates that we need to hit. >> Um maintained by um Kirk, our COO, and Dne, our production manager. And he also does a lot of design, which kind of keeps things on on the rails. Um, and then you know Austin, Max and I, uh, we have lots of other responsibilities, uh, that keep us from play testing.

So, we got to be very diligent about like, all right, even though this is not very urgent, we must keep play testing games and then and then you get in a cycle. I mean, like we we've done a lot of launches and so we we we know what needs to be done and we all kind of have our related tasks and so um, yeah, I don't know.

We should have we should have a really really great team. Um, you know, we we got Sam, my business partner, who handles almost all the the businessy things, but also like strategy and ads, um, and like, you know, when we're releasing stuff on the the web page, all the Shopify stuff, all that. It's just it's so much work.

Yeah. >> Um, that he that he does on a daily basis to keep this all running. Um, and then, uh, Lily, our community manager, uh, I mean, she is doing these tours, which is just so cool. Uh, um, her her and Sam have really been championing championing that. Um, and I think it's a wonderful way to grow our community in like a very face-toface um, it feels not scalable in a sense, but I think it's >> the thing we need to be doing because that's what this is all about is getting together, playing board games with people in your community.

And so, um, she's been doing that among many, many >> I was going to say, so you just got her a customer service rep or manager, right? I just saw that that episode where we're talking about so you could free her up to do the stuff she's already doing. >> I think that's [laughter] that's what it was.

So do at Ivy Studios if you come to work for you, do you need to be prepared to wear multiple hats? >> Oh yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. There's >> I think almost every I don't know a game studio that you don't wear multiple hats, right? Maybe not as day. I don't know. I don't know what it's like working at something that big.

But I mean, everyone, every friend that I have in the industry is doing eight things. Uh, and and the great thing is when we hire someone, a lot of us get to take off one of those hats and hand it to that person. Uh, and it it's been amazing. And I if tariffs hadn't happened, we probably would have hired more people.

And so, it's one of those things that I think a lot of last year was really hard because we didn't have another person to hand the hat off to. And that was because of not not having cash flow that we expected to have. So yeah. >> Are you still in growth mode now? [snorts] >> That's a that's a good question.

I mean, yeah, we're in we're in we're in growth mode. [sighs and gasps] >> That's that's an interesting question. >> We don't have any open positions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're we're in growth mode is like we're trying to like build there are many avenues in which to grow. This is very like businessy side of things, but like >> I think people like to hear this stuff.

It's It's interesting at least to me. >> I think right now we've only had space to do DTOC, right? Direct to consumer, right? We we do our Kickstarter launches and we do our um our web store and that's it. That's the really the only until very recently the only places you you can buy our our products, which is great.

That that's where we make the most margins. Like if you're a fan of ours, please buy it on our website. like that's that's the way that you can support us the most directly. Um, but then you know Sam and Austin and and Kirk have been doing a lot of work with Friendly Local Game Stores and spinning up a pipeline to get our games to them to have you know great relationship with them.

>> Y >> um yeah and so like we that's been a big effort and and it's and Tend has been a big part of that as well. people like tend people have been asking for it a lot and then we were out of out of stock and now we're getting rehipments. >> Oh, you have another print run coming. >> Two more. >> We have an emergency print run on the way and then a full print run on the way.

Yeah. >> Uh >> am I going to be able to find the ultimate deluxe crazy version or is it just the >> sort of deluxe crazy version? >> Yeah. So, the the nice thing about Tend is that the deluxe versions, what they have is the mat and the markers and extra sheets in them. Okay? >> And all three of those things are available as add-ons.

>> Okay? >> And so, going to the retail edition, the only thing you're missing out on is the cool holographic box and some like cosmetic upgrades. >> That's a huge deal. So like >> I mean it's a huge deal for a lot of people which is why our Kickstarters are so uh >> but for most people the markers are the selling point that they really want.

Um >> I agree I'd want the markers for sure to everybody. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They're available to everybody. >> So is that in stock now or will be soon? >> I think we have a freight container on the water arriving in late June. Um, and then that's an emergency print run that's getting us through Gen Con.

And then after that, we have another shipment coming. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then to to to continue with your question, like then then Austin's also been doing a lot of work on on Amazon. So, like we've had a lot of great great friends in the industry who have said, you know, a little bit ahead of us on their path and and they they know they're on Amazon and they're like, "Oh, yeah, like we we we spun up an Amazon store and we didn't even really see much of a hit on our our website store." Like it just is is like just another revenue stream.

So, it's it it has a lot more requirements as Austin can tell you more about this, but like it's it's harder to be on Amazon and they take a you know, Jeff be taking your money. Um, but it's still nice to have that other other spot because everybody, you know, that you you tell someone about your game and then they they they don't Google it.

They open amazon.com and they're like, I don't see Moonray. >> They also do weird stuff with returns, right? I think I've heard some retailers salty on >> on how easy it is to return the stuff and that's not typically a board game thing. >> Right. Right. I I'm gonna find out, I'm sure. Uh I don't say a no better than me.

[laughter] Zach's like, "What?" >> Yeah. No, it's it's it's a part of the process and and we we're in a sprint right now for Alterara and so it's it's taking a back burner, but it's about to be front again. Um, but yeah, the goal is to have our main, you know, green uh evergreen titles on Amazon in the next few months.

So, >> start drumming up >> Yeah. >> druming up some new categories there. It's a nice segue to one of the things that I I you know, you're you're very prominent on crowdfunding. So, if I were to take crowdfunding from you today, like what's the Ivy Studios that actually survives? Like, what types of games are you actually making?

Does it even survive? Like, does does crowdfunding actually keep you afloat at this point? >> It wouldn't have survived a few years ago um or even maybe even last year, the year before. I think it definitely could now because of the other pipelines that Zach just talked about setting up like it would it would drastically change how we do releases.

Um, and it to do that well, you have to have the other pipelines like direct to retail and Amazon and those things set up. I think otherwise we would just not be able to to fund the print runs uh in order to to survive as a company. >> But we're already doing direct to consumer launches. We're we're skipping retail on several things right now or skipping excuse me skipping crowdfunding on several things right now and that's the plan moving forward is to start moving some of our launches to direct instead of crowdfunding them.

>> What's the benefit to direct without having to deal with the crowdfunding stuff? >> Oh, great question. Uh so what you want to go first Austin? We have we have much thought. You go first. You go first. >> Hopefully we don't have the hopefully we don't have the same answer. Um, one of the things is that crowdfunding, you we don't want to oversaturate our market with too many crowdfunding campaigns, right?

>> And not everything needs a crowdfunding campaign. Like a lot of our smallbox lines, we have a party game coming out. Um, has that name been announced, Zach? Am I allowed to say that? >> No, not yet. Not yet. But yes, we're >> I'll edit it out. I promise. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Uh, we have a party game coming out that is direct to retail and it just does not need a crowdfunding campaign.

There's nothing special deluxified about it. There's nothing special that like we're not going to be doing like a buy five games on this one crowdfunding campaign. Like it just has a lot of different parameters. Like it's not going to cost us two $300,000 to produce in a factory. Like we can do a smaller print run and it's a much cheaper game to produce.

And so it just doesn't need all the fanfare of a crowdfunding campaign. Zach, what were you gonna say? Oh, I was Yeah, I mean like crowdfunding lets us do some things like we're working on, you know, all ter I just got a render back from Max for this like crazy idea of like a a a short, you know, run product that like would not make sense at retail, but like is we're going to try it on on the Kickstarter and like this is where people like want to show up and spend a lot of money and have something that is really special to them.

Um, and and that is something that that crowdfunding is really great and good at. Um, the thing that it's not is accessibility. Like I I I I want to do everything we can to to grow the hobby to invite new people into this awesome thing that we love and we believe is wonderful for the world. Board games are amazing.

Um, and we want uh I there are so many people that I know love our games or would love our games but would never touch a Kickstarter. I I mean I get it. It's like I I before we did this, I didn't kickstart a lot of things. It's It's very prohibitive. And so I I dream Yeah, you did. You did. >> You're responsible.

>> But it's >> But I dream of a day where we can do a big launch that is just just on our website and like you can buy it and it shows up in a couple days. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. That that would be >> a wonderful place. And and to your other question is like what's the you know what would happen if you took crowdfunding away?

It would just be it's it's it's a cash flow thing. It's like a you know if we were planning on it we like we would survive. Um but it's it's just a and and the other part of it too is we use we use crowdfunding in a way to get a lot of great feedback on our games. And so we would have to change our processes a little bit um on the nice thing right now is we're we're making Alterara, we're doing the tour, we're going to get a ton of feedback from the tour, we're doing testing right now.

We're we're sending it out to influencers and they're giving us their notes. Um and that's such a wonderful part of the process of like, oh, they were really confused about this. Let's change the rule book. Or like this just felt bad to a lot of people, like a lot of new players. like we're not new players anymore and you're just getting, you know, maybe thousands, I don't know, like of of players >> before we ship the game that are playing for the first time right now and are really excited about it.

And that's such a wonderful opportunity to make the game better. Um, and I think that would be probably the biggest actual difference between just like dropping from kick uh from crowdfunding. Like right now crowdfunding makes our games better >> because we're we're able to have the community look at it, you know, tear it apart, say mean things about it online, and give us the opportunity to, you know, uh, either address that or not.

>> Is it always clear? Go ahead, Austin. Sorry. >> Oh, no. I was just going to say like on Zach's point like 800 people will play it on tour and all of those people are supposed to take a survey and just give us initial thoughts. >> That's the shallow testing, right? Like they're not playing it multiple times.

But we have deep testing going on in our Discord where there are people playing it again and again and again >> and they're giving us feedback and they're like, "Hey, the yellow track on Altera is really strong right now." And then we take that feedback and then we try the game playing the way they're playing and then we are like, "Oh yeah, it is too strong." No, they're wrong.

Like, it's not too strong. They just don't play the blue track at all. >> And so, it it is a a process that without the hype of a Kickstarter, it might or a a GameCong campaign, it might be hard to pull those people to the play testing table. Uh, and so it just be a different process. >> Well, I think early on for you that might be true, but I think now if you had if you just went direct to customer and had kind of like the Stonemer surprise reveal, oh, it's going to be on shelves here really soon.

But in the background, you could probably get quite a few people to continue to to to test your stuff. Um >> Oh, definitely. >> Not not as wide. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> The net would be shock. >> Is it challenging with uh getting conflicting feedback because I could imagine just like, you know, people some people aren't playing the blue track.

And I mean, maybe there's still something in there to make it more apparent to play the blue track, but I could imagine that that's you're getting a wide variety of feedback points. >> That can be hard, right? It's because like a lot some of the feedback will come in and it's like, oh, this like directly contradicts like what we're trying to do with this game.

And so, you have to know like which feedback to ignore because not everyone's going to like your games, right? Like we're if we're if we're making something great, we're gonna isolate some people. in this we're trying to show up and make a lot like some people's favorite game of all time. Like that's what we're trying to do with each of our games.

Um and if you're going to get that specific, you're going to make a game that a lot of people don't like and that is totally fine. Uh that is that that is great even. And so that's one of the things that is tough to learn how to parse is like oh there's that's not the kind of game that we're making.

And then so that that's one category of feedback, right? where it's just like, okay, this person's just not going to like this game and that is okay. But then the majority of the feedback is like, oh no, okay, that is that is a real problem. Um or that is a communication error or something like that.

And then you get the other bucket of feedback which is just like we have a large group of people saying that the blue faction is too strong, but then you realize that there's also a large group of people who are saying the yellow track is too strong. Right? So what really what that means [laughter] >> what actually that means is blue faction is not strong enough because no one is saying that the blue faction is too strong.

Right. >> Um and so it's like >> you said blue faction at the start but you meant red faction >> or it's perfect. It's allowing you to exploit a particular strategy instead of having to do the even spread on everything. So if you're coming away feeling that yellow was great. Hey is that does that equal a good time?

Possibly. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And David, you were talking about just kind of like the learning and how getting thrown into the deep end and and going to this division. One of the biggest things I had no idea that I had to learn was how to play test effectively because I am a people person as we established early on.

So we get in and I'm making excuses for the game. I'm telling them the things we're going to fix. I'm telling the things I don't like and like that's all terrible. If if you're playing game, shut up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You're leading the witness. Shut up. let them tell you what they don't like at the end and they're going to give you tons of ideas.

And I truly think anyone can be a game designer. And so a lot of times they're flexing those muscles that they don't know they have >> by telling you how to fix your game. And as a game designer, you have to step back and be like, "Okay, I'm I'm not looking for solutions. They can tell me solutions, but I need to find the problem that's beneath that solution that they're trying to give me and then evaluate a solution for my game." And so, uh, yeah, it play testing is an an art for for the people running the play tests.

It is it is something that was very hard for me to learn. Zack Zack sat in on one of my play tests one time, and I remember this very clearly. He probably doesn't, but at the end, he's like, "Hey, man. Um, >> shut up. >> I want to talk about [laughter] Yeah, I want to talk about how you started the play test.

I was He was like, "You did a really good teach, but then you told them the things you thought was wrong with the game." And so at the end of the play test, they told you the things that you thought was wrong with the game, >> right? [laughter] >> And I was like, "Oh, shoot." >> All right. Well, throw away all my data.

We'll just uh start over. [laughter] >> So, you know, the one of the interesting things that came out yesterday when I was talking to Danny Garcia, he hardly plays his games. He he think he finds it way more impactful on his design by observing play tests. He says he'll observe thousands of play tests and play it less than a hundred times.

And he was he it came up because he was he was playing Diablo. Uh he just got a copy. Uh and he's like, "Oh my gosh, I couldn't believe how much fun I was having." I was like, "Haven't you played this thing a thousand times?" He's like, "No, I've watched other people play it a thousand times." How important is it to watch people play your games?

Uh, real quick, I'm gonna let Austin start with us. I have to use the restroom, so I'm gonna do >> Sorry, we're going long. You >> go. No, no, no. Please. I'm have a fantastic time. I I hope we continue going for a while. Just give me give me one minute. >> Beautiful. >> You want to pause, Dave, or do you want me to answer?

>> No, have at it. >> All right. So, uh, the answer is that I think he is probably a better designer than we are. At least >> he's brilliant, by the way. Holy crap, he's brilliant. Yeah. >> Not like he's >> No, no, no. We're a team of at least three, sometimes four. So, we we benefit from playing it a lot.

And then the final balance is where the other people playing really really helps us in my opinion. And that's why I love going out on tour. Lily's running these these tour events. Most of them are run by volunteers, but I like going to events to watch people play because that's an amazing uh just like, oh, hey, three tables are playing this one rule slightly wrong.

Like, how? Let me go look at the rule book and see like where where we went wrong in there. But beyond that, we have a lead play tester in our Discord for each of our games that is running uh sometimes daily, but weekly games for all of our play tests, and he's giving us reports on that. And then he's also having all of them take surveys.

And so they're giving us, you know, their feelings on the length of the game. They're giving us feelings on the strength of the faction they play. They're giving us feelings on all these other things. And so we're looking at that as data and then taking those things and playing them ourselves. So we're not very much like him in the fact that we don't observe nearly as many games as we play.

We play a lot more. >> Do you record that play testing? >> Uh we do now on some things. Not that was not early in our process. I could because I could imagine I don't know where you all stand on on AI, but being able to get through a ton and probably get more minute data points that maybe your your lead play tester just isn't jotting down.

Little table talk things, right, might be pretty interesting there. >> AI for efficiency sake for things like recording conversations and stuff is is fine for us. AI for >> art or, you know, game design or anything else is is definitely taboo. Um, and so yeah, we're we're all for AI that helps people do their jobs and not AI that replaces creative jobs.

>> Yeah, that's what that's that's my st that's my stance on it, too. Um, >> yeah. >> So, so you aren't necessarily sitting there watching people play the game over and over again. you're you've outsourced that a little bit. Take reports in, they're they're surfacing big picture items for things that then you go investigate to figure out if it's a real problem or not.

>> Yeah. And and that's the beginning of the process. But like tonight, we have 40 people coming to our office to play Altera that have never played before in most cases. And so me, Zach, Lily, and Sam will all be here to observe that, to teach that, to watch. And so it's definitely something that's near the end of the process when we're doing final balancing that observing becomes a lot more important to see like what rules are people tripping over, what are they playing slightly wrong, like are they all playing the red track because it seems like the red track's better even though it's not the best track.

So yeah, it's it's at that final balancing where those type of observations become more important for us. >> Is Alter having track issues right now? That keeps coming up. [laughter] >> No, this is so funny that you bring this up. Uh yeah. So yesterday I thought we were having track issues, but this is just a symptom of making physical games in that we're three or four major iterations past the the printed copies of the games.

We had to submit those files two months ago. We've had hundreds, if not a thousand hours of play testing since then. >> Uh and so a lot of the tracks have already changed. And so I went to Zach and Sam and Toby and was like, "Guys, the red track's too strong." And Toby's like, "Get get in a game on on TTS." He's like, "It is I will I will slap you down and never touch the red track." And he did.

He won by like 10 points. Never touch the red track. And so, uh, it's good it's good to, uh, have a team that's playing the the final version when I'm stuck playing the physical version that's a little bit behind because I was feeling insecure like, guys, the red track's too good. >> Are the same people on Discord play that are doing these tests playing them over and over again?

So they have this depth of knowledge or is it kind of a shallow takes because it very much just that that that instance happens all the time in the comments where people will tell me I'm wrong about something or vice or even I'm a victim of it where I just haven't played the game enough to really actually understand all of the nuances like how are you looking at that feedback relative to their experience?

>> Yeah, in the Discord it's a mix, right? You have your super fans that have already played 10 times that are playing it and then you have someone that saw a Facebook ad that said they could play on TTS right now and they joined the Discord just to try it out. >> Uh and as we get closer to the Kickstarter or even during the Kickstarter is where it really switches from the the diehard fans that are play testing again and again to people that just want to demo the game.

They're not play testing the game anymore. They're they're just trying it out. And so right now is when the dieh hard fans are playing. >> Yeah. And the other part of it too is like we you think about your own experience, most games you play one maybe two times and so like those first two times are the most important play tests, right?

Like th those because if those aren't amazing, you're not going to get to play 10, 15, 20, right? And so we do try and optimize for those new players. Um and and get as many of those reps in. Um and then honestly like we've got the like our team I think just naturally I mean we we we are on play I don't know 50 or whatever.

Like we are also we are optimizing for that like we we want to make sure we're still having a great time in play 50 and uh so like we get that I think that nice balance of both. um of the eyes on the long game, but the short game is just like yeah so important. >> Danny Garcia would would um agree with you.

Cole Worley would not. And that's that that's the interesting part. Like when I interviewed Cole, his games a lot of times the first game is tough. A lot of times and his games are really group dependent of course, but uh he doesn't engineer for that first play at all. He's engineering for that >> 20th play.

uh while you know you and Danny Garcia I asked him this question I was like do you actually design for the first play he said absolutely that's so important right so but you know leader games/Berry giant games fans are psychopaths >> um you know I'm one of them I I I love root and and arcs and such >> well and and it's it's so impressive and and that's why they have such a diehard following is is because their games have such depth and I think they're like he he and their team have such a reputation for that amazing depth and that's what gets you past those first hard uh you know couple playthroughs is because you he and their team have built such trust in like no there is like such such depth here such um experiences to be had that it's like worth it and you know it will be um and and that's I just I I find it so impressive and I'm so happy that there is an audience for that like sometimes it blows my a little bit like playing Root for the first time or playing Oath [snorts] for the first time.

I'm one game into Oath and I'm just like I am so happy that like it it like makes me happy about the world that like there are that these games are popular and successful because they're >> like to me I think smarter people than me like would find them maybe a bit more accessible. But like it's hard like I it was so hard to learn and get into and so worth it and I'm so happy that people have the attention span for it and like have the desire.

I I don't know. I just I love what they're doing. I have such respect for them and I'm such a fan and it just makes me happy that so many people love their games. >> Well, it's because I do too, >> right? Because I can imagine a couple people, but finding a table full of people [laughter] that are that psychotic, you know, you think about root root, you're not learning one faction.

You need to know all of them at the table and at any given time there could be 12 or 14. I don't even know what there are now, you know. So [laughter] so crazy. It's such a crazy ecosystem that they built over there. >> The other thing I think is so brilliant about about what they're doing and also like ties to my background in in art and creative direction and art direction is I think the pairing with with an like just an elite art director and illustrator in in Kyle is like what brings you through those first few play tests because you're just like, "Oh, this is just like a vibe, man." like like that is what is inviting about their games and that's how they hook you and maybe get you past those first few plays where it's like wow I feel really dumb and like you guys are crushing me right now and then >> but it's cute and like [laughter] it's it's it's so thoughtfully and so thoughtful and well considered and like that pulls you through um the the difficulty of like getting into the like the wonderful part of playing those games which is probably like play, you know, three or four.

Um, so anyways, >> it it's funny you say vibe. I was just talking to uh Jay Bernardo of Bezier and he was telling me, you know, how how to get through the Tokyo Tokyo game market. Yeah. Just met him for the first time. Another awesome person. And he said, "On vibes alone, you need to walk through that place and really just purchase vibes." And I I didn't really understand what that meant.

I mean, a lot of that is art, right? Aesthetic, that type of stuff. That's obviously super important to you guys. how much do you and he said the the cover is the most important part of the game not the design and I even tried to like well you have to have a good game he's like no the cover is the most important part of the game do you agree the cover is the most important part of the the game >> I think at retail >> which Bezier does you know I think everything in retail I don't even know >> yeah it if you're if you're walking through a for you only have the cover or for knowledge of the game to go off in a lot of cases like that that's at least what's going to get you to pull the game off the shelf and look at the back of the box which is also important.

>> Uh but Zach is much more qualified to answer this question so I'm going to turn it over to him. >> So as someone who is in charge of the cover I would disagree that it is the most important part. It is the most important art asset for sure. Yeah, >> it is the most important sales element, right? Like that is the thing that is going to grab people on an Instagram ad or on a shelf.

But if the game stinks, it doesn't matter. Like if it is not fun, it doesn't matter. >> You might have sold >> they might have bought it. Well, but you're but you're not going to sell it to any of their friends. Yeah. And you're not gonna like like it it'll stop there and it will have a low shelf life and you won't reprint it.

>> And like and and again for us our goal is to make people's favorite games and >> to be able to do that like you I play so many games and I'm not going to name any names that I'm just like I do not vibe with this. Like I don't I don't like the way it looks. But like I'll come back to it over and over and over again.

And like yes, I wish it had like art that connected with me on a deep level, but like it's still fun and fun is fun. Uh and you got to chase the fun. >> To to another example, um Eerie Idol Games Old King's Crown I think is possibly the most beautiful game that has come out in the last few years. >> Yeah.

And if the gameplay was not there to back that up, people would be like, "That's that's beautiful art, but I'm never going to back another one of their campaigns." Yeah. Instead, you have people chomping at the bit to get whatever Yuri Idol's going to make next. Because not only was the art bestin-class, people love the gameplay, too.

And so, like, I think any creative studio with some money can create a box art that is going to sell their first game. I don't think they can sell their second game on box art if that makes sense. Like it's it's just not possible to keep people interested if the gameplay is not there. >> I think it's depends on your customer too.

He was talking a little bit on some uh some recent u kind of marketing um results, some surprising results around Amazon uh ironically and he found kind of their their customer avatar was a like mid to late 30year-old mom which he thought was really really interesting. And maybe that is more important to that customer.

You know, it's also lighter games. There's less, you know, smaller box stuff, less expensive. you know, that certainly isn't your customer, I wouldn't I wouldn't imagine or at least in the majority of your games. So, that might be coming from that perspective. Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, definitely. No, I and I do think that there Yeah, that this is purely just like these are the people that we sell to and that like the kinds of games that we are trying to make because there are um >> yeah I think like the casual not casual but like the um I don't know like a a lighter more approachable market I think um where there isn't that expectation that you're going to like I should be able to play this a hundred times and like still be loving it.

Um, I don't think all names all games need to be that. I I like I don't think that at all. But like that is what we're aiming for, right? Um, >> is that is that where your your you want your games to land is in that 100 playlist because I don't know that everyone actually designs to that per se. You know, you think about low depth games that just don't have a ton of replay-ability.

Um, you know, is that like a conscious metric that you're thinking about? I not in a con. I I think it's only conscious in that like we are going to play it a hundred times and we're not going to make something that we don't love. So like I I think by just the nature of the our process. I think that's just where we end up.

It's like I'm going to get bored of this on play 20 if we don't add something guys. Like we got to like >> we got to do something about that. And so like and I think we're just attracted to those types of games. Um, that said, with the smallox games, like I don't know that we put that pressure on those.

Um, >> I have played Moon Rollers 20 times and I probably have another 20 sitting in my pocket now before it gets buried somewhere. >> Right. Right. Right. So, >> you know, that's great. >> Tend is our first game that I think there are people that will play the game more than I have. >> Um, >> because, you know, >> Eli said over a hundred times.

He played that over hundred times, I think he said, from the Grove. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And he got it delivered. He didn't have an early copy. Sorry, Austin. I'm stepping on you. >> Yeah. >> No, no, you're fine. Uh I had people come up to me and they're like, I need another scratchoff pack. And I was like, oh, like, yeah, we have that.

There's also an app that you can use if you don't want to buy more. He said, "No, no, I'll buy more." And I said, "Great. Uh, you must have played a lot." And I said, "Which version did you get?" He said, "Well, I got the Kickstarter version." And so the Kickstarter version had 200 sheets of it. Uh, and I said, "Wow, like how big is your play group?" He's like, "Oh, no.

I play solo." >> What? >> And I was like, >> "Dude, what do you do?" >> Holy crap, man. You [laughter] You haven't played this game as much as I have. Like, that's insane. Like, that's a lot of times >> in a relatively short time, right? Like, that's that's the crazy thing. Would you have ever expected when you were including 200 sheets, like, you know, which is a crazy amount of sheets that someone was going to be going through them like that?

>> Yeah. I mean, he said he played one and two player and just like just had gone through it. No. No. I would never have expected someone to run out that fast. I mean, it's 25 four player games in the retail edition and I don't think that many people will get to that. But solo players that fall in love with the game, I think will get to that.

And luckily, because they're playing so long games >> solo, like what's the >> depends on who you're playing with. Solo, you can get it down to an hour. Uh maybe a lot, but with a group, it's >> 200 hours in in a a flipping right game. Holy crap. >> Yeah, that's a lot. >> That's crazy. It's a lot. So, >> well, that's that's awesome.

That's a that's a great um that's a great data point. If if anyone can get there, um that means there's that means there's a there's a pretty good hook there for sure. And he's apparently not going to stop playing. He was getting more sheets, you said? >> Oh. >> Oh, yeah. No, he was asking he was actively buying more scratch options.

So, >> beautiful. >> I I want to pivot a little bit. Austin, you're the relationship person. You mentioned how important relationships are. you and Ivy Studios are I don't know one of the most visibly connected to content creators. And I don't say that in a bad way, I say that in a good way. Like I how important is it to connect with the people that are making and not just sending copies out, but literally connecting with them, talking with them, collaborating with them.

You've had tons of collaborations in studio. You film awesome content and you bring them in. Like uh why is that such a priority to you? >> Yeah. So it goes back to early in the company. So Moonrakers launched right before the pandemic, but our next two launches were during the pandemic. Um, and there I used to run a Kickstarter show and I used to talk about that the only way that you can get external verification uh is by sending it out to press in those situations.

And so when I'm looking at a Kickstarter page when I was doing my Kickstarter show, I was like, is the art good? Can you play it on TTS or try it out for yourself? And then what are other people saying about it are the big things. And so that that third leg of the stool is so important. What are content creators saying about it?

And that doesn't even need to be them praising it or trashing it. It needs to be them explaining the mechanisms in a way that the viewer can understand pretty quickly >> uh to have an idea of do I like this or not. And it's not me or Zach because we're we're obviously biased as anything. Um, and so it gives some external verification on like this is a mechanism that might be like this game.

Me and Zach play our own games so many times. We don't have the breadth that these content creators do. They've played 800 games more than us on any given day. And so they can bring in comparisons that we don't have in a lot of ways that can show off the game in ways we can't. And so we used to work with um 60ish content creators for game launches.

Um, we've scaled that back because we make 80 copies and half of those go out to tour and half go to content creators at this point. Um, and so but but partnering with content creators was so important during the pandemic because we couldn't do as much in person or grassroots stuff. So that's where it kind of started as okay, we really need to to connect with these people, teach them the game ourselves and and build a relationship with them so that they can call me.

like every every one of our um press kits is like at the end it says call Austin at any time of day when you are playing if you have a problem or question we'd rather answer it than have you oh all the time I get I get texts I get phone calls all the time. Yep. >> Um and I I tell anytime I see someone in person I'm like if you have a problem or a question I want you to call me.

Now if they're if they're doing a blind like occasionally we'll hire someone to do like a blind learn of from the rule book and stuff like then it's like don't talk to me just tell me what problems you had at the end. But usually it's like I want you to call me this while you're playing. Even if you're recording, just pause the camera, call me and and ask me your question.

Um but but all that to say is it started off just being let's build those connections. And then when the pandemic ended, we realized that we had an opportunity to do something that other people weren't doing. And that was we were a video production studio. We had the ability to make really great content.

and we figured why not bring people that they're used to seeing into that content versus me and Zach who weren't People didn't know who we were at that time. Uh, and probably >> I knew you from Quackaloupe actually, Austin. I've I've been watching you for a while. >> Yeah. >> Awesome. That was way back in the day.

Um, and yes, I I went on Quackaloupe and I went on Alex's show because they live pretty close to each other. >> Uh, and so I went up and visited them at one point. Um, but yes, it is something that I have really enjoyed because of the relationships of meeting people at cons. I love building friendships in the industry with other uh publishers.

Like we're really close with people um at Chip Theory. We're close with people at Key Master. We're close with people at Orange Nebula. Uh I'm missing some other companies, but it's really great to have those connections and then also grown really close with content creators. And you know, you have to keep that professional relationship of like they need to be able to be honest about your games, but at the same time, like I see those people six times a year.

Like it's it's really good to to have friends and and be able to play games and and learn new things because >> like I said, me and Zach play our games so much. When I go to those camp when I go to those cons, I'm like, "Please teach me anything that is cool." Uh because I want to learn as much as possible about what's current in the industry.

And so a lot of times that's content creators being like, "This is my new favorite game. Let's play this." So yeah, >> how do you make content creators feel safe in criticizing your games both in front of you and on video? I think the some of the more cynical people might say, you know, people Ivy Studios is too close to content creators because you are just you have so much content with them or whatever it might be.

Um, I think it's probably a allowed minority, but uh, h how do you at least make these people feel comfortable to continue their relationship with you, but also kind of levy criticism? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's lots of ways that can happen. Uh, one is keep working with people that don't always sing our praises.

Like, we send out press copies to anyone that wants one. Uh, like if someone asks me for a press copy, they're getting one as long as they have a following. So, we're not we're not holding copies back because of something that someone said in the past is the first way. Uh, another way is telling them that.

I mean, when we're sending out these copies to to people, I'm not even asking for a review. Like, they're they're not supposed to tell everyone it's the best game that came out. I want them to tell people how the game plays and I want them to tell them who would like it and who wouldn't like it. That's in our press kit.

And in fact, last year we shared our press kit publicly to show what we were telling. We had a bunch of comments. Uh >> we had a bunch of comments on um >> I think it was Realm of Reckoning. Realm of Reckoning just happened to be a lot of press said this is Ivy's guest best game yet. And so we put that on the page and then we had a bunch of comments be like wow how much did Ivy pay people to say this is Ivy's best game yet?

And that's when Sam was like, "We need to put out what we're telling press like out into the public so people know what those relationships look like and like what kind of comments we're what kind of quotes we're asking for." And that is very explicitly we want you to talk about the mechanics of the game.

We want you to talk about who would like it and we want you to talk about uh a short snippet of of what you thought of the game. And like that's it. >> And and we don't have to use the negative ones obviously and occasionally we'll get one that's negative. That's very uncommon. But we're not we're not paying people to say anything about our games, if that makes sense.

>> I received a box of games from you all >> with no I never met any of you. I've never reached out to you. I hadn't reached out to you for this. In fact, it's I still think it might have been a mistake. I don't even know. But uh there were no there was no instructions. There was no David, can you? Not even an ask to cover any of this stuff.

And I haven't covered any of it. I've talked very well about Moonrakers and and throughout some of my um these interviews I talk about talk about your games, but there was never an ask. So, that wasn't a mistake. You literally just send people games without any direction whatsoever. >> It depends. Usually, I have a list, but occasionally I'll find someone that I think should be on that list and and usually try to have a conversation with them and David, I probably put you on the list and and forgot.

But, uh it's one of those things. too busy. [laughter] >> No, I mean that is true. But no, it is one of those things that like we believe that >> people getting to touch and play with our games is only a good thing. Like we we stand behind the product. There's going to be people Zach already talked about there's going to be a lot of people that don't like our games because we try to make it someone's favorite game.

But we are full proponents of just like putting it out there and letting it speak for itself. >> I was actually going to say this earlier. Um, so Cole would rather have 100 nines and 100 twos from a a review perspective than 2007s. Is that the same for you? >> 100%. >> I I'd rather have 110 and 107s, but sure.

I would take 110 [laughter] and 100. >> Well, he said it it's a actually a really good signal if some people are calling it their their hated their most hated game and some are calling it it's the favorite. that's the type of stuff that he likes to design, which I think he's an outlier. I'll I don't expect you to have the same perspective, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

>> I I I think I mean he's definitely >> he he's got such a specific um I love specificity and so and I say he's got such a specific um voice like I mean that as the highest compliment. Um and I think his games are just incredibly polarizing. That's just like >> and I and I think that's a strength. Um, and but I don't know that we are I guess we literally are sitting out.

We do have like internal metrics around like play testers and their score like their actual like review scores, but I don't think that's in our minds when we're we're there to make the first game. I don't know how I don't know how to operate on that level. I don't know how to [laughter] think about that.

Like at the well, we start we're just >> Yeah. Yeah. It's just like we're just we're just trying to make games that like me, my buddies Austin and Max like we enjoy playing together and like that we love and that we're excited to get up tomorrow and make better and play over and over again. And like I think I don't know how any other way to create.

So I'm not like trying to make a game that's anything. I'm just trying to make like a fun game and like that's hard enough. And then then later we can figure out how we want to package it, frame it and all that stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think his is by happen stance. Obviously it's high interaction.

lots of take that. I think that's in general right there just is super polarizing, highly complicated, although arcs isn't necessarily complicated. Um, some people might argue against that, but Root certainly is and Oath and and and all that stuff. So, I think that's that's probably what skews his reviews.

Your games are certainly more approachable, but they still have plenty of I don't know above the table negotiation. Like you're te you're able to tell a story above the table with your game, which Cole is is very very uh he wants to give players tools to create stories rather than >> tell them how to uh you know minmax a particular you know uh mechanic and and score the most points.

Are are those kind of above the table discussion? Um, I'm not articulating this well, but uh, you know, the the hidden the hidden information, all of that kind of stuff that's almost outside of the rule book. Is that important to you? >> I just go ahead. >> Part of the games that we like and so that's where our games tend to to go.

Um, and then but we also like other games. I just think it's you like you even you see where it's like the games that like like tend doesn't have any of that and that's because it came from outside of of our core [laughter] core group. But we we love that but it's like our your natural sensibilities just kind of go to those places.

We really like to feel clever. We like to feel sneaky. Like I love to set up a plan that I'm thinking about over a long term and then see that pay off. Um, and so like that those things just kind of find their way into our games because it's some like that that it's an intersection of stuff that we all like.

Um, and yeah, I think that is how that ends up happening. >> I I love the I I love having to pay attention to what somebody else is doing at the table and I think your games do that really really well. Um, Brink was not even on my radar and you sent me it and I love Brink and I thought the hidden bidding uh mechanism was super fun.

It was totally I did not expect that whatsoever. Um, obviously, you know, Fractured Sky has has a lot of that. Veiled Fate was probably the my favorite out of out of everything so far and that's obviously um deduction. So it's like this, but you also ground yourselves in a lot of times like with Brink and kind of euro um mechanisms in some cases or familiar mechanisms, but they're they're they're being combined with these social um kind of aspects that I just find so interesting about your game.

So that just comes through because you guys love to play games like that. >> Yeah. And I I think it also comes through I think that the worst thing that we could possibly do is bore you. like I I I've played some some boring games like what like I other people like love, but to me it's like I wanna I wanna >> I'm here to play a game and I want to be like thinking about something the whole time, you know?

I want to be doing something. I want to be taking my turn while you're taking your turn or I want to be I want to care about what you're doing. I want to be like pulled in at all moments. And I think there's, don't get me wrong, I think there's space for games that uh there is downtime and there is space for, you know, conversation or all that stuff, but I'm just like, let's let's go.

I want to I want to >> I want to trade or something. I don't know, >> right? >> No, I I love that. But that that is als head head down puzzle. Um, I keep I just I just talked to Danny Garcia, but I keep going back to it. He doesn't want anyone to mess with his game. >> All of his his design proclivity is a positive interaction.

So, if you're making a decision, the tough part of it is you're going to benefit somebody else. >> He never wants somebody to mess to mess with his plans. In your games, people mess with plans, which I love. But, you know, that design decision does separate or at least uh alienate some players. But then you have tend that you know you want to head down >> puzzle >> go get it.

>> We also have mythic mischief which is an outlier as well because mythic mischief is a a puzzly abstract game and you do mess with each other in between rounds like you're trying to get each other caught but like they come right back on the board. They're not permanently eliminated or anything like that.

And it's it is something where early on people I think kind of expected us to follow this Moonrakers uh like table interaction and allying and things like that. and we looks like lots of different types of games and then it's three designers on staff. And so Max brought Mythic Mischief in as his kind of like leading leading the project.

Uh the first initial MVP of the project and I was like man I'm so glad you're on this team Max because I never would have designed something like this. Never. Not in a million years. Uh, and but I got to develop on it and bring my sensibilities and Zach got to bring his sensibilities to it and we're really proud of where that ended up.

But it was very very different than the rest of our products at the time and compared to Vea Fate and Moon Rankers has not sold as well. That's probably why. It's just it wasn't >> like our other games in in the lineup. >> It found its own audience over time. >> It's also modular and like to to get all of the interest, you know, it's it's better to have more, you know, that type of stuff.

That might be part of it. I enjoy myth. I actually just downloaded the app last night. The app's great. >> Love playing the app. >> Oh, nice. Thank you. Yeah. >> Um, you know, shout out Ivy Studios. You're not paying me for this, I promise. Uh, [laughter] I want to talk about some some specific games.

The stuff that you're delivering right now will deliver and is going on crowdfunding. I um speaking of I think we talked a little bit about uh campaign fatigue and not putting everything on. Uh I missed Realm of Reckoning completely. I didn't even know it existed until a few weeks ago. Get me up to speed.

Why am I going to like Realm of Reckoning, which is delivering now, by the way, on time. On time. You guys deliver on time. I I checked that. And you deliver pretty quickly, which is a whole another thing. I had all these other questions to talk about all of that, but I'm skipping through them, but I just wanted to shout out You're on time.

>> Thank you. >> Well, thank you. Appreciate that. >> Who's gonna pitch on? >> You want to go give the rundown, Austin? >> Yeah. Uh, Rome, I'll give the pitch and then Zach will correct me on the things that I forget, but I think Rome is extremely special because it has some familiar mechanisms even going all the way back to like Sushi Go.

Like it is a card drafting game at its core. And I one of my favorite games is um It's a Wonderful World. I love It's a Wonderful World. I love card drafting. But in this game at the beginning, you're not sure what is going to score points. we're in this afterlife and everything's kind of broken and you're rebuilding these monuments and where you put those monuments is going to determine what will score points.

And so I'm trying to win this big bidding war where I'm get to be the first person to pick where the monument is going. And you get to do three of those around and if I win I can say coins are now worth money and I chose that because I had tons of coins. However, all the resources that you're voting with could end up being points if a monument goes there.

So, I may have been voting and just spent all my coins and now I'm like, "Ah, shoot. That's now scoring points. I got to get coins back." And as you're developing um these resources and you're trying to get more of these resources, they're starting to score points in different places. So, it's like, "Oh, I can't spend I can't spend my coins anymore because that's points.

I got to hold on to those." And every game's completely different based on what get chosen to be victory points. Um, it's my favorite of our designs. I love it. I'm so happy that it is delivering. Yeah. >> Well, it sounded very Ivy as you as you go. You were you you were explaining that. That definitely does.

I don't think you're going outside of the the comfort zone, but I love the variable scoring. I love players determining the scoring brink, you know. Um, so that sounds really cool. So, what other games in your catalog, if somebody loves those, they're likely to like Realm of Reckoning? I mean, Brink does have that it has that like blind bid for what it what determines scoring.

I think that that shares the biggest um like crossover. Uh and it's got like some nice crunchy decisions around like what is worth sacrificing for upside. Um and >> uh but it's got card drafting. I don't know. Graph is our other card drafting game. So, but they're really not that similar at all. They're not somewhere.

>> On your turn, are you just playing a card? I like looked at it a little bit yesterday, but I It's as simple as that. >> Yeah, it's it's basically a game of cards >> and you're playing a card and you're um revealing and but every card is a top and a bottom and so you're tucking your cards and making stacks in the five different um you know, areas of the realm.

Uh, and so like you're choosing a card, but then after you reveal, you're also choosing like where are you going to where you going to slot it and you get different resources. Um, yeah, really really proud of that one. Uh, and I'm really excited for it to hit the store and people to just be playing it.

>> Yeah. When's that hitting retail? >> Yeah, >> we could have done it a little sooner, but we decided to hold it until uh, Gen Con. So, it could have gone on in late July after fulfillment everywhere worldwide is done, but it's going to it's going to end up being right after Gen Con. >> So, I have to make it to Gen Con.

I'm assuming it's going to be for sale at Gen Con. >> Yeah, it will be. Yeah. >> Beautiful. >> But, I mean, you can also just request a review copy. I I already said that. >> Well, just know they're all they've all been requested. You know, I'll cut all this I'm going to cut all this out so nobody sees it.

Yeah, they're all requested. Um, another one that I want to request that I I didn't really miss. I was in the midst of I'm building an app and and doing all kinds of stuff, getting laid off, all of it at the same time. Um, uh, Honors End looked so freaking good, but as co-op, which is totally different.

>> Um, you mentioned that the original Moon Rakers you were fighting something. Is this kind of like you're you're you're you're kind of fulfilling that prophecy and now you're fighting stuff, deck building. >> Yep. Yep. So, uh, Honor's End came to be because of Moonrakers. We made a, uh, digital companion that turned it into a co-op game called Luminor.

Um, and basically like Moonraers is a semi-ooperative deck building game. Uh, and so there's already these elements of co-op. Uh, and we really like kind of rogike games. You slight Spire, all these games that everyone loves that are just fantastic. and it was like, you know, 60% of the way there towards being a game kind of like that.

And so when we did Titan, we came up with this app where it basically kind of >> tweaked the game to be fully cooperative, but it needed this app and it also it got it 90% of the way there, right? Whereas like some of the cards had like some asterisks around them. Like obviously we didn't design Moonreakers what, five years ago to to know we're going to use it for a full go up.

Side note, I was going to play that. I just downloaded the app. I wanted to play it before this. Is it worth >> investing my time? >> Do it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Please. I Yeah. I mean, you obviously will be the the judge of that, but I still I stand by it. But we we know that that the app is a big People don't play board games to to turn on their TV or like their iPad or whatever.

They concept be around a be around a table. And so, >> yeah, >> we I I I like I I I think I was the quarterback on this at the start. Um, and it was just like the like I I know we know Moonrakers works. What if we built rebuilt Moonrakers from the ground up as a co-op game? >> Um, and that was the like to to get the experience that we wanted that we had in Luminor into a a full game.

And so like it started with Moonreaker's art, Moonreaker's names. Like that's what the initial prototype was. We knew we would rethe it later, but uh that's how it started. >> The the big B breakthrough in that project was how do we make it not feel just like we we pasted this over top of Moonrakers.

And Zach came up with a card tucking mechanic that I am in love with. I love it so much where every card has like a not every card, but most of your cards have a symbol that can power other cards. So my card that I played already, it has a bottom section on it. And that bottom section says, "You need to play this lion, but if you play this lion, you'll do two more damage." And then our crew from Moon Rakers are our heroes in in uh in Honor's End.

When you play them, they can have an unlimited number of cards tucked underneath of them, unlike other cards that can only be tucked once. And so, as you're building your deck, occasionally you'll just find one card that you're like, "Oh, I'm building this whole strategy around this this game." And it's it's really really fun to see those pop off in big ways.

>> It is. How's the card play? Is it pretty comboy and and and fast? I know sometimes a lot of deck builders are are are criticized because you don't get through your deck and it doesn't really feel like you're actually building a deck rather than just a run through your deck. >> Yeah. So, like one of the big goals was even you could even say this about Moonrakers is that once you get your hand it there's pretty much one way to play it, right?

Like it's just like all right, cool. I build an engine and then I'm going to run my engine. And what we were hoping to do was like, I'm going to build my engine, but then on each turn, depending upon what the enemy is throwing at us, I might use this card. I might tuck this card. I might um there's one other thing that you can do with the cards that I'm Oh, I might give this card to my my my friends with an ally bonus.

And so every almost all the cards have, you know, one, two, three ways that you can use them. And so like not only is it like let's choose the cards that we want to build this engine, but every turn is very much a puzzle that you have to work on like while you're playing your cards. So that's one of the things that >> that's a huge problem with deck builders is the is you know I'm I'm playing Ascendy right now or not Ascendy, Ascension getting ready for an interview with Justin Gray and that is kind of what Ascension is.

It's like you know you know what what what's how those are going to play out. you could just hit play all, you know, and there's not really strategic decisions. The fun part is buying the cards and kind of building your strategy there. Um, but that's that's an interesting >> Go ahead. >> It solved another issue for me too, which is I am >> recognize this myself.

I am a quarterback co-op player and I hate that about myself. >> And so I just don't play a lot of co-op games. Yeah. I just don't play a lot of co-op games because I don't want to be that guy. But I can't stop myself. And in Honor's End, I'm so heads down figuring out the puzzle that I'm doing and we're playing simultaneously that I don't have time to tell Zach his best optimal play.

And so it stops me from being a jerk uh quarterback and it makes me just play the game out. But the fun part is is we don't lose the collaboration because there's literally a phase at the top of everything. Like Zach said, you have ally bonuses on cards. It's like, "Hey guys, I don't really need this card.

Does anyone need an inspiration dice to help you?" and someone will be like, "Oh my gosh, an inspiration dice would totally turn my hand around." And so I can play that before we get going. So you have the moments of collaboration and then the moments of head down where I'm not able to tell other people what to do.

So I I love that for that reason. >> That's that's very interesting. So I was just talking to Mike from OneStop Co-op Shop and we're talking about what makes a good co-op game and one of the things that kind of came out of the conversation was asymmetry because you can't quarterback in that in that instance.

Somebody else is playing a totally different puzzle than you. all you can do is offer up with what you can do and what you can accomplish and how you kind of combine those things together. So, it sounds like you might have accomplished that through kind of the the variety of deck building and all the different ways you can use the cards, >> right?

>> Yeah. And uh you you'd also brought up uh our our timeliness. Um so, I want to go on record and say that uh we are going to be a little bit late for honors end and that is my fault. Um, uh, we're we're I think we're posting the the official schedule, but the other the other this is this is our hardest design, I think, by far.

>> What's been your turnaround, by the way? How many months ahead of time did you promise this >> because you have you have some of the quickest turnarounds in the entire >> space? We usually promise >> we usually promise between nine and 12 months on every project >> and nine months sticks out >> almost all of those.

>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, >> I'll I'll let you I'll let you through on that one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, this this one it So, the other big part of it is it's a there's a narrative campaign. And so, the game has nine chapters. Um, and so I I wrote what is effectively a screenplay, a very long screenplay.

It was supposed to be 90 pages. It ended up being 120 pages. You wrote it basically just by yourself? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. >> Uh, yeah. I mean, I had feedback from a lot of folks and then uh a couple of editors most most um uh Devin Norris uh did a lot of uh final story editing for me. So, he he has a he had a big hand in in writing it as well.

>> Um but also just taking feedback from the whole team as as with everything. But, uh yeah, every every time you sit down to play, we're walking you through a a story. Um, and you get to meet the characters. Those characters enter your deck. You get to do like the the idea is for it to be like a table read uh of a of a movie where you're all sitting down and you get to, you know, you your line comes up and you read your line and uh we take you on this this adventure.

Um, and boy did that take a long time to write and then balance and come up with content for [laughter] all of the things and then also make sure that they worked at one, two, three, and four players and wasn't too hard or too easy across all of those things. Uh, wow. The hardest game we've ever like had to design like by >> I was going to ask so it's is that what did it was this narrative piece and trying to incorporate everything.

So, is it the narrative? >> Could you keep going, Austin? >> It was the It was the narrative and then it was just the fact that instead of balancing a single game, we had to balance each chapter's parameters. We had never done uh a campaign before. We had thought about it on 10 and thank god we didn't do it for that uh on the first release.

But yeah, it was just a lot of okay, time to play test chapter 7, you know, a bunch of times to make sure that's too bal that that's not unbalanced. It's like chapter seven was much harder than chapter eight. Well, we got to fix that. >> So, yeah. >> How many game sessions are in a campaign? >> Yeah.

So, there's nine there's nine chapters. Um, and so like you can play nine times. And basically, you're getting a micro expansion every time you play. And so, there's like a an envelope with each chapter. And so, like you'll be reading and then be like, you know, now now fight encounter 2.1. And then like, okay, now draw, you know, equipment cards 3.1 through 3.3.

and then like draft them and but then all those cards go back into the base game. Um, and so like the next chapter you play, all those cards will be in there. So basically you're opening a a micro expansion every time you play. Um, and then once you're done, we have a a kind of new game plus mode. I can't remember what we called it, but it's like hard mode.

And so you can go back and play the whole campaign again, but harder if you want. But then we also just have a adventure mode, which is just a boss rush mode. you you you draw a random tier one, two, and three boss from from the narrative, from the base game. And so once you're done with it, you can just play with all the content endlessly in kind of just a randomly generated, you know, one shot basically.

>> Am I going to be really excited about the cards I'm unlocking on each chapter? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, I I I hope so because they're the the the depth definitely grows a lot. Um, and >> yeah, >> I don't know. It feels It feels like pulling a card. >> Saying too much that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Careful what you [laughter] say.

There's some There's some surprises. Yeah. >> The narrative itself has some very fun twists and turns. That's all I'll say. >> Did you guys do like foil cards and stuff like that >> for the Kickstarter edition? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Very cool. Uh, so I think most of the like all of the I think all the poker cards that like poker size cards that you crack have some kind of foiling treatment.

Um, so yeah. >> Very cool. And we're we're out of time, but I'm happy to keep going because and I know you probably want to talk about Alterara. >> Yeah, we can give a little bit of Alterara and then we can go make some videos about Alterara. >> Yeah, exactly. I know you have I know you have more to do.

Uh, but I read the rule book last night. Uh, bag building, dice placement, hidden information, weird. Um, uh, it looks pretty good. What am I missing? We're bumping tracks. Uh, where's where's the hook here? Where am I going to be excited to play this one? >> It's all about the tracks. Just like it's all about the cones.

It's all about the tracks. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh, you want It's Yeah. I mean, it's it's got the like elements of a deck builder, but with dice, right? you you get to kind of craft your own engine of workers, which is uh just immensely satisfying. Roll chucking dice is fun, but then it's also got this variable um worker placement aspect to it, right?

Where every sing all the all the worker spots are cards. They're big giant poker sized cards. And so every single round feels very different. Um and you're trying to you know, you just got new worker spots every single round. Uh, and so each each round feels like a really fun puzzle to to uncover. Uh, and then it's also asymmetric.

So there are 12 asymmetric factions that you start with a each with a unique ability. Uh, and that just game to game gives it, I think, a lot of legs um, and is really special uh, in that way. >> Is there blocking? >> You will never play the same. >> Go ahead, Austin. Okay. You'll never play the same game just because the worker placement spots and the order they come out with constantly change.

So every round is a different worker placement spot for every color and then there's six artifact cards that are completely different. I think we have 20 of those that get mixed in. So you're only ever playing with six of them and then you're playing with one of the factions. And so it's just it's very different every you have to take a different strategy every time you play based on what artifacts are available, what work placement spots are available and then what your core strength is asymmetrically.

So, >> and are you placing secretly behind the shield in the spots that are out in front of you? How do like um block is there blocking or does is everyone able to go to the space? >> Yeah. So, the first round like I'll say I'll go to the bottom yellow spot here and then anyone else could also choose the bottom yellow spot and we put our workers there at the same time.

But the second round, no one can place in that bottom yellow spot because it's already got a worker on it. And so there is blocking. There are ways to overcome that. There's an artifact card that lets you overcome that, but uh that won't be played in every game. >> And how powerful is the asymmetry.

The more the better for me. >> Yeah, it's not like uh you're not playing separate games with different win conditions. Um but you do have a you know different starting deck of dice, right? and you do have an ability that you're going to be using every round. Um, and so it's I I think it is strategically very different, but all is, you know, it's somewhere between a like nice push in a right direction and like totally gamechanging.

Like it gives you a great direction to go. It does make, you know, game one feel like a totally different game than game two, but at the end of the day, we're all trying to do the same thing. So, it's >> the type of asymmetry I like is the one that guides you down a strategy that makes it apparent that it's more beneficial for you to take different moves than other people would.

The one that the the type of um kind of asymmetry where it's just like, oh, you just get an extra >> piece of wood every time you go to this space or something like that's not that's not uh something that I love. And um often I'm I'm tricked into, you know, being excited about asymmetric aspects of a game.

And they're not really strategy changing, I guess, is what I would say is is needed. >> Other than Mythic Mischief, this is our most asymmetric game, right? Mythic Mischief is like you have a faction that has like that is like the core of Mythic Mischief is like two asymmetric factions. Um other than that, this is our I would say our most asymmetric game.

Um because it it is really going to change your the whole way you approach the game depending upon what what faction you have. >> What dice trade did you land on? >> Uh we're going to go I I So you're referencing a video I made about like is this too big? >> It was too big because in >> Yeah. Thank you.

I agree with you. About half the commenters disagree with I commented it's too big >> and I would and it was interesting because I was like I felt great about this decision and then we had our first inreal like IRL play test of the prototype and literally [laughter] unanimous and there's some group think here right like one person's like I think this is the perfect size and everyone's like yeah I think it's the perfect size they all thought it was the perfect size don't make it smaller um I think we can make it smaller and they wouldn't notice but don't tell them I said that needs to fit behind I really will be getting snaps.

>> Is that magnets? >> It's not snaps, it's magnets. And I love it. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> It's great. >> So, it's it's way better than snaps because I hate doing those like >> Yeah. >> trying to get those things apart and back together. >> My chip theory snap. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Very nice. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. We've done snap We've done snaps in the past. It's It's what we did for >> snaps are fine, but magnets are fun. >> Magnets are just >> magnets are fun. the more you can add like fractured sky magnets. I mean, that just makes makes the whole experience. Yeah. >> It's like, who cares if the game's fun?

I get to play with magnets. [laughter] >> 100%. >> Other than the dice tray, is the dice tray going to be standard or is that a deluxe edition deal? >> No, it will be it will be a deluxe edition or an add-on. It's not standard. >> So, you expect me just to roll dice and hope they don't go outside of my Yep.

my my shield. >> Yeah, >> I have to do the dice tray. >> We're just We're hoping and praying. Yeah. >> Or I have to use my snap my busted snap dice tray >> and that won't fit behind it. >> Exactly. >> What other crazy delifications are you thinking about? >> Yeah. So, we we have some I was going to say generally we're trying to get our >> we're trying to be a bit more intentional with our longstanding, >> you know, games are getting more expensive as people know.

Uh it's not that we want more money, it's that they are literally getting more expensive to make for many reasons that are very publicly known. Um and they're so so we're trying to be a little bit more intentional about like what is that ongoing long-term version look like? How can you then continue to make them better with more modular upgrades that maybe have spots in the box?

and we're like thinking about so we're trying to just get a little bit better at that that our like kind of low-end version like trying to like make sure that that's um you know makes the right concessions but is still a wonderful experience right >> um and so being modular in like you know we have our you can buy the um >> you can buy an upgrade we're still working through what our you know reward tiers and how we're all going to structure this out but it's just like you know it it starts lower but you can buy the upgraded token pack you can buy the the mat hat and the the dice trays.

And then uh we do have some some higherend things uh in in play, but we we we don't have pricing yet, so I can't >> metal dice. Maybe >> anything, >> man. I'd love to do metal dice. There's too many dice. >> Yeah, >> there's so many dice in this game. >> I'm surprised you're not busting out the metal dice, frankly.

>> Oh, [laughter] man. I mean, just the Moonrollers dice cost us so much to make, and there only 12 of those. Well, I didn't know there was metal moon rollers dice. >> Yeah, >> brother. They're the coolest dice. [laughter] They're the coolest dice in the world. They're amazing. I love them. Uh but this is 80 dice plus 40 more if you add the five and six player expansion.

It is too many dice. >> So, it's like that $500 metal dice kit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Literally. Yeah. No, it it would be because it's like 50 or 60 bucks for those Moon Rollers dice and there's 12 of them and so multiply that by 10. Yeah, we're talking about a $600, >> right? >> Dice pack, [laughter] which I mean >> a couple people >> if enough people want to buy it.

[laughter] >> I like >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you like honestly do you like the rolling of metal dice? the hand feels great, but I don't feel like I get the action on the dice uh with like [clears throat] the the metal chip theory dice I have. >> I think it's because I'm scared to chuck them, right? Like plastic dice chip or anything like that.

That's that's the thing. I like to play with them in the hands and stuff, but it's just it doesn't it doesn't feel like they have the same rolling action. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Can I just hold the metal in one hand and roll the the others? Sure. [laughter] >> All right. What else do people need to know about Alterara before I let you all go?

>> Uh, yeah, there's I I'm I'm It's very fun uh theme. So, it's about the Ascension Festival. Um, >> a new world, you know, right? >> Yeah. New new IP for us. So, it's about the Ascension Festival. Um, where, you know, factions come from from all over the world. It's almost like the the the UN meets like the Olympics, you know?

It's where like basically you're bringing everything that um you you have to offer to show the world, not just your money and power and war. It's like you're you're bringing you know you're doing like baking competitions and like Olympic events and uh whoever can kind of show that they are you know worthy to ascend to the high council that you know the winner gets a seat on the high council.

Um, and the the style is is very much um we're calling it pre-Colombian sci-fi. So, we have um his name's uh Filipe Vargas. He's a Chilean uh illustrator um that I've been trying to pair pair with the game for a long time. And so, um I I I I brought it to him and I'm like, "Look, man." And this is my approach for all of our games.

I just like I find artists that I think have a unique vision and voice and and I hire them for them. uh I I want to chase what they're excited about and we we work on the theme and and the design and and make sure it's their dream project as as well as ours. U and I was like, "Look, man, like this is what I'm thinking, but I don't want to like, you know, pigeon hole you into like you're from South America.

We should do a South America theme." He's like, "No, man. This is like what I live for. I'm like so stoked." He's going to like museums. He went to the pre-colian um uh museum uh in South America. took a bunch of pictures like you can see direct references from like prehistoric >> people are going to really appreciate things I think.

>> Oh yeah. And and and then working with our a longtime collaborator Mind Prism. Uh he does all of our branding work and so he kind of took that inspiration. We've got some really fun like kind of uh you know pre-Colombian influence in in the we we kind of split up our design into like illustration and design and so like the graphic design elements also really mirror that but also in a sci-fi way.

I love fusing two things that aren't aren't usually together. That's where you find new >> Aztec solar punk like it's it's kind of has a really cool aesthetic to it and I'm glad I I like this new world. Do you think you're going to continue in this new IP? I that's always the plan. So yeah, we we we when we spin something new up like we spend a lot of time in it.

We we you know imagine out a place that we want to spend time in and part of our I guess business model is like we make a game and then hopefully people fall in love with that world and that place and then are excited to have another game in it. Um and we're excited to to come back to it. So, we want to keep building out these worlds and give people more touch points because then when you get a new touch point, I think it enriches the original touch point.

Like you come back to Moonrakers from Brink, you have all this new context and this new touch point that I think enrich enriches the experience of the first one. So, uh yeah. So, hopefully yes. >> Beautiful. Did he miss anything, Austin? Anything people really need to know about Alterara, >> man. other than no metal dice that >> I Yeah, I mean I think that the fear with the dice game is that there's going to be too much luck involved and we didn't touch on how there's a lot of mitigation set up for that, but I think that's a little >> but I didn't get to it.

Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, there's there's a resource that literally is you can change the color or you can change the face of any of your dice and and that is a huge strategy and a huge part of winning is manipulating your dice at the right time and saving them for the right moments. So, I I love talking about that.

But I mean, as far as the the art style and everything else, like I'm I'm really thrilled about it. >> Well, it's so it's so interesting that you bring that up, Austin, because I I kind of forgot about that as a core because literally a a thing our lead play tester, Zach, not me. I don't not not me in third person.

our our lead play tester's name is also Zach has brought to us is like hey guys I think maybe you should consider putting more luck into this game because the players [laughter] who have played this five times are crushing the new people and like we like maybe you should consider like more and then like and we're just like maybe like this is one of those things like is that a feature or is that a bug?

Um, but yeah, I I think that's also one of the things that Toby is really good at is making I mean 10 is like >> you play one to play 20. Like it is an unbelievable difference and that is present in this game. Like Toby crushed me, Max, and Austin yesterday. Like demolished. Like we're embarrassed because like he I mean he like like I said he's been working on this game like so much longer than 10.

Um, like this game has been in development uh longer maybe than any of our games ever. And so it is just been >> uh there's just a lot there. Um, and the skill ceiling is pretty high, which is kind of interesting given that it is a dice game and you'd think like, wow, the the variability in >> the dice rolling uh would make it super variable, but no, like Toby's just better at this game and he's going to beat me pretty often.

Well, I think people playing a dice game that see strategy and are rewarded for making smart decisions that juxtaposition isn't something that you typically see. So, that's going to be a surprising effect to me. If you want to ramp up luck, you're trying to ramp up drama. And if dice are behind a screen, drama is minimal.

It's just between kind of you, you and yourself, not the rest of the table. I don't I don't know anything about the game, but I I like the idea of a skill-based dice game. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's definitely that >> beautiful. Okay, that's it. I've taken way too much of your time. You all [laughter] were so awesome.

I look I I wish I could show you my notes. I have probably two more hours of questions. I don't know how I would have ever thought. >> Let's do it again. >> Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it again. >> Round two. I'm down. This is This is amazing. You You asked such thoughtful questions. I I I really appreciate you what you're doing with this show.

Very honored to to be on it. Um, I Yeah, I love what you're doing here. So, thank you for thinking. >> That's so awesome. I was gonna I was trying I was trying to work up to my pitch to get you back on, but since you said it, I'm stopping there. Done. Done. Yeah, [laughter] I'm hanging up now. Uh, everyone say goodbye.

Thanks for being on. >> Bye. >> See you. Thank you.