TCbH Podcast - The State of the Herald Address 2025

0:07 I have more space to roam. This is really I really like your floors. They're nice wooden floors which are really good for the wheels on my chair to roll good cuz I got caster wheels for my chair and so they roll really well which is really good when I introduce the podcast which is what everyone looks forward to. Hello and welcome to the Cardboard Herald podcast. I am Eric, your host, joined as always by my uh sneaky peaky co-host, Jack. That's me. And not as always because last week you were joined by a different co-host. That's true. I was joined by a different co-host, uh, Nick Murray of Bitewing Games, which was a lot of fun.

0:54 And I think that uh based on the amount of fun and based on some feedback, that is definitely going to be something where Jack is no longer my always as always by my co-host Jack with other adjectives. I'm going have to start writing down adjectives for people that I'm interviewing that are like work appropriate for for them. I I think we need to figure out if the there's a separation between the Cardboard Herald podcast, which is the podcast that we're doing, and TCBH interviews, uh, which is what the Cardboard Herald started doing really. And it all kind of just blended into one thing. And and that that's kind of going to be what we're going to talk about later today. I'm sure Eric's going to have a brilliant transition for that.

1:46 It's gonna be really good. Um, yeah. I mean, the the interview went really well. Uh, I learned a lot. Nick's cool. Yeah, it he seems like a cool guy. I actually didn't know about his history with dentistry and suddenly it was like, "Oh, Bitewing. Got it. All right, I understand." Well, I think I I don't know how, but I think my first introduction to Bitewing games was, "Oh, they're dentists, and they also make board games, which is why it's Bitewing." Um Uhhuh. I don't know. I thought this the story with Rhynitia and uh Dentist. Uh that was that was perfect. You know, that little bit of serendipity or you know, kismmet. Uh, I thought that that was wonderful and it was cool to kind of hear someone who has been one of the uh many vocal uh creators during the kind of turbulent period that we're experiencing in America with the uh tariffs to kind of talk forthright about the business of bringing games to life while also dealing with the reality of unknowns. Yeah, totally. And I mean it's it's a turbulent time for everybody and I think that it sometimes can be a bit like lost in the void that we just keep saying the same thing over and over like you and me. So it's nice to have somebody who has definitely like a bit more authority on the subject to chat about it. Uh and it was also fun to talk about Gazebo and Gingham which are

3:18 two games that I reviewed recently and I've been playing recently. Jack, what have you been playing this week? I haven't talked to you in two weeks. I know, right? I I've gotten so much to the table recently. I mean, I've already talked about Deep Regrets, which the review for that should be up uh really soon here. And then I have played Super Boss Monster now. Um which is cool. like I I I have a a like many people in this space um because Boss Monster is largely kind of like a mass market game um is how it's often presented um maybe kind of on the cusp in the way of that say Munchkin is uh and so Boss Monster isn't exactly thought very well of in the hobby gaming circles um and it's existed on the periphery. Uh I of course love the theme because I grew up playing old school video games and uh I I just kind of checked out after it initially released and then I was like, "Ah, this fun, it's cute, but it's not really for me." Uh on BG, I saw a um a design diary for Super Boss Monster. I was like, "Super Boss Monster?" Well, I mean, the Super caught my attention because like I remember I was there when the Super Nintendo came out and I was like, I don't need, you know, Nintendo anymore.

4:45 I don't need an NES. I need a Super Nintendo. Um, and it was interesting because Brotherwise Games has released some, you know, really great hobby games, uh, recently, and it's, um, their attempt to allow for complete backwards compatibility to all the old Boss Monster stuff, but like a new, more modern hobby game platform for playing the game. In truth, it's just a little bit better boss monster. I If you really didn't like boss monster in the past, I don't think this is going to do it for you. But if you really wanted to like boss monster and just needed it to be a little bit better, then this is a great way to do it. I kind of wish they had really embraced the super boss monster aspect and were like, "We want to stay true to the origins, you know, the intent of this game, but make it a new platform. This is 2.0. There's no backwards compatibility. So that way we're not constrained by the entire history of this game, and we can do the game that we would design now if a boss monster didn't exist in the past." Uh, and I think that would have been a little bit more interesting and allow for more creative and dynamic design space while still being simplistic and and really poppy and enjoyable. As it is, you know, it's the best entry point

6:15 to Boss Monster at this point. It looks really great. It has the same cheeky humor. If you're a big-time retro video game person, then it's probably going to scratch an itch. But again, it it it is absolutely still at its core uh boss monster. It's not deviating too much from that formula. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I think I Board game sequels are always I feel like they can just be a really weird scenario where you find yourself in where you have to be somewhat true to the original audience. It it feels like, but then also you want to try something new. That's why you're making a sequel as opposed to like an expansion. Um Yeah. And and it's not the exact same thing as the video game industry, right?

7:05 Because like when when I mean I imagine that even back in those early console generations that the jump from NES to Super NES, um of course there was a lot of controversy at the time, a lot of people going, "Well, why do I need a new game system? Isn't my NES just as good? But I'm sure even then Nintendo was hoping that people would make the transition to this new thing and they wouldn't be beholden to the past. And so you look at something like um Super Mario World or uh Zelda um uh Link to the Past or Super Metroid. And those are incredibly informed by the past, but they're not constrained by also serving up that same thing. And I don't I I don't envy the position that a board game publisher would be in because like for example with the Brother Wise Games, they have a massive success in uh Boss Monster with gobs of expansions and materials and all that kind of stuff.

8:16 And if they were to say stop making stuff for old boss monster and had a new platform with new cards and new mechanics and said this is the new thing. Well, that may be a smaller audience that they're serving to. And at the same time, if they kept both of them going, then they have two products that are essentially competing with one another. I don't know. Like it it's a weird space because in theory they want the old thing to still be alive and vibrant in a way that video games and technology in general doesn't want to stay in the past. Yeah. And it's just such a cool theme. Like I'm here for it. I want the super boss monster to work. So, yeah, I mean I I'll try getting my hands on it at some point or another. I mean, I think that it's not going to be too difficult. I actually never into playing I never played the original boss monster, so that's definitely something that I should I feel like I should probably check out just to know know how it is. Well, I mean, it it should be right up my alley, right? You know, like I love tower defense. I love logistics and, you know, like um uh procedurally uh uh activated things. Uh and so, you know, like just on paper, you have a dungeon that heroes need to be attracted to and then you're going to subject them

9:48 to sequenced torture in some like Rube Goldbergian dungeon construction. Sounds so cool, but it just doesn't have enough dynamics to really satisfy that itch, you know, like the the best part about a tower defense game or or um a lot of cooperative games where you have waves of things coming at you are where you can make two things work really well synergistically in sequence. And the rooms in this more often than not tend to be just very dry, do some damage or if you do some damage, you might get an extra point if you successfully kill someone. It doesn't really give you that like orcs must die. You know, if they go here, then you're going to spring them over to here or you're going to deviate their path over here or you're going pool up heroes over here. That's just not the framework that the the game exists in.

10:48 But I think it could have been if they had made a clean break and said Super Boss Monster is its own thing. Um yeah, other than that, uh in order to not talk about every game, um I I am going to mention I I've been very passionate about getting caught up on Aon's End recently. We talked about Aon's End. Uh but uh Night Shift is the other game that came in. uh the game uh where you are please tell us more. Yeah, please tell us more about Night Shift. Um you are a uh exotic dancer, a stripper. Um and uh the game has this kind of self-aware uh presentation. Uh it's still kind of teetering this line between uh empowerment versus like you know like a a sex positive empowerment versus exploitative and titilating uh crudeness.

11:55 Uh it is I guess the best way that I could put it um one it's it's a fun game there. There's really not that much to it. Um, it has a great tutorial uh to play through. Um, it kind of has to me what feels like almost an adult swim. Just kind of like it's playful and gleeful and a little ironic and uh very silly. Um, and as long as you don't mind uh some crude sex humor uh then uh you're going to have a good time. Um there are certain elements uh to it where uh there's a lot of sadness uh and the game is aware of a lot of sadness. I mean um but not on the point but not at the dancers. You as the dancers are you know glamorous and exciting. Uh the sadness comes from the people who some of the people who are attending uh that you're attracting into VIP rooms and uh the private rooms and that kind of stuff. Um there's some really clever mini games in it. Overall uh simplistic. We played a two-player game as a learning two-player game and it was done in about 30 minutes. Um and it was fun. I'm actually looking forward to taking it to Devil's

13:27 Club uh for public game night. Uh see if anyone wants to get down on that. Um I don't know. It doesn't seem to have the depth uh nor the interesting exploration of the theme that would make it like a lasting game that I want to keep in the collection. Uh but um yeah, I it's it's fun so far. Great. I mean, I think that there's there's room in the board game industry for just games that are fun and that are that's just the whole thing is they're fun. They might not be like the most depth there is. And I feel like with kind of unfortunately I feel like the reaction to Night Shift has been like, "Oh, this is kind of a silly fun game that maybe didn't give the publisher time to explore the like really deep thematic, but also maybe that's just the game they're making."

14:27 Yeah. And and I I don't know that everything has to be like heavy-handed social commentary, right? Um there's it doesn't Well, yeah. uh you know um it's hard to say especially uh as uh a dude in my 40s you know uh or almost in my 40s uh what I think the accurate representation should be of the life uh and the level of empowerment uh of an exotic dancer. Um, but I think that there is room for even uh through humor to explore something a little bit more uh interesting and uh add some color and depth. Uh, and this is probably just scratching the surface of because it is so unique in this space that I think you got to take baby steps uh if you're going to engage in this. I think the funniest thing about the game as a project is it occurred to me that it would be a marvelous gateway game for someone who um you know like if you're meeting up with some couples uh or something and you're like hey you know like they've only played Monopoly in the past and you're like well you know like it's kind of funny but you know if you like um uh Cards Against Humanity you know I have this board game that uh you

16:00 know, you play as exotic dancers and you're just trying to attract patrons and get some money. Uh, and then it does a really good job of teaching some very basic speculation mechanics, dice probability mechanics, um, and, uh, push your luck mechanics that I I think would be a great introduction to to other concepts in games. um and get someone to try this on account of how silly uh the theme is. Of course, there's going to be a lot of people who are just like turned off or squeamish about, you know, like maybe this something you play with your partner, but you don't feel comfortable playing with like other people because you don't want to talk about bedroom stuff with other people. But, um ultimately, uh it's silly, it's fun, and it's going for something that this hobby doesn't really have. So, um I I'm here for it. What have you been playing? Um I got my first play of Galactic Cruising.

17:05 Um the solo It's I just played the solo mode. This was one of the games that I was like most uh excited for at the start of the year because like I'm I I think the theme is really great of of space capitalism absurdity. Uh yeah. And I think from my one and a half solo plays, I did like a half play to get used to the rules and then had to put it all away and then bring it back out for a full play um later. So I have one and a half plays in. Um I think the absurdity really lands. The mechanics are really cool. I think it does not do itself service as a solo game because I feel like from playing it, it's going to really shine as a multiplayer game. Because to me, some of the best mechanics in this game are you have to do things for other people. you'll get a reward for it, but like to refill the agenda cards, you have to take an action to do that and you have to give up an agenda or oh, and now I'm forgetting exactly how it functions, but you have to like give up your turn to do that. You have to discard an agenda card to refill the silo, the resource silo that people can use to build things and use them. And there's also the bumping mechanic, which

18:36 other worker placements have this, but they I haven't seen them have quite the exact same implementation as Galactic Cruise, where it's you there's only so many places for you to go on the board. And if you want to go where somebody already is, you can you can do that. You just bump them back to their player board. So, like if I have a pawn on a place that you want to go, you would bump my thing back to my board. And I get like a small little bonus for you doing that. And now I don't have to take a turn late. Like I can now delay taking my turn where I have to recall all my workers because all of them are out. So, if you have no workers, you have to take like a a zero turn where you just bring them back into your to your break room and then you can start placing them again. But if somebody bumps one of your workers back, that's one more turn that you can not have to take that zero turn.

19:38 Um, so I think the mechanics are going to really shine a lot better when there is like a social aspect of instead of I'm bumping the like solo mode standin character back to their board, I am now bumping Jack's character back to his board. Um, right. Yeah, but I still liked my time in the solo mode. I think that it's it has a lot of interesting systems that feel like they have a lot of depth so far. I need to play I think a few more times to like really say for certain, but it's it's good is kind of my my immediate gut feeling on it. It looks good and it has the presentation of one of these types of games. I have a lovehate relationship with where it kind of looks uh dizzying like a gigantic spreadsheet on a table uh with all kinds of pivot tables uh upon it. Um you know like other games uh hegemony uh totaken um I I want to say that's how you pronounce it.

20:59 uh and many other um like larger spanning euros kind of have this look of where every bit of the board is a piece of information that you can interact with in person. Is that um relatively easy to navigate or is it a um a bit of a mess? So everything on the board is something you can interact with, right? realistically. So, so basically on your turn you can do there are six places you can place a pawn on the main board and at each of those six spaces at or sorry at each of those six spaces is two actions you can do but you can build developments is what they're called to then now whenever you go to that space you can do either the action at your space or something something connected to that space via your developments kind of like a little chain.

22:07 So you can do those actions and you get to do two actions total from whatever you're connected to from your space which at the start of the game is just the two actions on that space. Mhm. or you can launch a ship, which is its own separate process that you have to go through. Um, or you have to recall all of your workers. So, those are the only like three things you can do on your turn is either take two actions, launch a ship, or recall your workers. Um, there's a lot going on, but I feel like the game does a good job making it all thematically make sense for why you would do something like there's a lot of you have to schedule a cruise so that you can then get like that's the cruise that you're going to fly and that's going to get your guests onto or that doesn't get your guest on the ship, but that like helps you choose which guest you're going to choose.

23:14 And I'm not going to go actually I'm going to stop myself from going too into the weeds on the rules because people if they're interested should just read the rule book. But I feel like all of the systems that they have thematically make sense in a way where I didn't feel like I was looking at a spreadsheet. Yeah. But I mean that that's really what you want in a game, right? Like you want enough intuition, like a some sort of indication that's informed by the theme that makes the the progression of mechanics feel somewhat naturalistic. Like that's once your brain locks into how this is a distillation of this thematic concept uh then it creates a flow that you can follow the path on. Yeah. And I think that it it felt really good like it it felt like once you were in the zone of playing I wasn't ever like confused about what I was doing.

24:18 Like it all made sense. The one thing I will note is that I was playing on there's a board where everything is already start of the game predetermined. This is what the board looks like. And then there's another side. There's the other just you flip the board over and all of the actions now that like logically make sense for these for each of the sets of actions to be paired together because you probably want to do both on the same turn. you now shuffle those up and you might no longer have actions that like make sense that they go together which I feel like is going to complicate things a ton and I probably at least if I'm and we'll see but at least for the first few times I'm playing I just that board kind of scares me because it feels like it's taking the like I understand why the why I would go in each spot uh and just changes it up drastically where you now have to do so many things out of order because that just is the way that the board is laid out.

25:29 Um yeah, I don't know. I think that it's I'm enjoying it solo. I think it's going to be really significantly better in the co-op. And that's less to do with the solo mode not being good, but more to do with I think the social aspect of the game is going to be one of the things that I find most rewarding. Is it inherently co-op or is that just an alternative way to play and it's not co-oply competitive? Oh, it's competitive. It It's exclusively competitive. Oh, okay. That that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. So, um yeah, you know, like I I'm here for it. I'm interested in it. Uh, one thing I know we don't have like a news segment. Maybe we should have a news segment. Um, but while we're talking about dense euros, one thing that I'm actually really excited by is uh the announcement of SETI space agencies. Oh, yeah. Um, which I had like a conflicting review of SETI. Uh, and it's funny because when we first started looking at it, you were like, "This is a Jack Eddie game." Yep. Uh, which I agree it is a Jack Eddie game. Um, but it was almost like the the sandbox was a little too open for me. Um, so while I really loved it in concept, uh, I found that the game, um, in a lot of ways could be a little rudderless, uh, and I wanted

27:01 just a little bit of a push, uh, in a direction and the space agencies, uh, seems to be addressing exactly that. Uh, and if that's the case, then that may make STI a game that is definitely still in my collection. Uh, I've played it since the review came out, and I think with every bit of play that I have with it, I enjoy it more. Mainly because I I have more direction, like I I have more concept of what I want to lean into. Um, however, I think uh space agencies could really resolve some of the issues that I have almost like giving a terraforming Mars prelude uh aspect to the game. Uh but we'll see. Um that's a cool expansion that hopefully I can get my hands on. Uh but do you think you know do you think that like might be a thing that we cover on the channel? It might be a thing that we cover on the channel. I mean, what we cover on this channel is always kind of changing and and somewhat illdefined other than what excites us. So, I mean, this could just be a good opportunity for us to talk about like some of the things behind the scenes on this channel and also just give the audience a peak and see what they're thinking about. Maybe like a state of the channel address 2025.

28:26 Yes. Uh, that is right. Way to go, Eric. What's with your for the podcast this week? Uh, we are going to be talking about kind of where we are with the cardboard handle. Card cardboard herald. Oh goodness. That's a great start. Spacient. Yeah. Uh, getting the Yeah. Getting the flubs out of the way early this year. Um, but yeah, I think that both of us, I mean, we've I've been on the channel for like close to a year now. Um, Mhm. and I think we've the channel's been doing a lot of different things, uh, at least more regularly. Like, we have this podcast up and running now. Um, which kind of gives us a space to talk about games that we wouldn't really normally be doing reviews for or games that we've played recently that are maybe a bit older to the sake that we're not we're just not going to probably do a review just because it doesn't make much sense. uh everybody. Yeah. And I I think it also gives us an opportunity to kind of codify some of our thoughts. You know, like oftentimes the people who aren't in the board game industry slashcontent creator biz don't want to dissect ad nauseium uh what makes a good game good or bad as soon as you played it. Yeah.

29:55 Uh, and so, uh, there's only so much of that that you can inflict on your partners and your friends and, you know, suck the fun out of the room by being like, "Yeah, that was good, but it was weird that it had X, Y, and Z mechanic." So, we can talk to each other about that. Yeah, we do. And I do that. It's really great. Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's that's a good uh aspect of the podcast. But, yeah. Um, when I brought this up as a possible topic, um, which you, uh, heavily encouraged as well, uh, it was mainly, uh, born out of kind of checking in with you and, um, a desire to be transparent with the audience. Uh I I know one of our commenters sent like a a like a oh uh positive vibes going your way. So like this isn't like a shocking we're we're tearing it down or we're going another direction uh or we're going to be streaming board games on only fans or something like that, you know, like it's not I mean that could be new revenue. I you say that joke we're playing maybe we do maybe you do a night shift only fans uh account. We could I just read a book about starring an Only Fans.

31:14 So we could do this. It was it was a fictional book. So there's I It didn't give tips or anything. In fact, I feel like it probably was not very truthful or accurate to what now that I think about it. Complete deviation. It's called Margo's Got Troubles. It's very good. Would recommend reading it. Excellent. Um, I would love a satirical fantasy uh book that is some sort of only fans exploration in the way of that organics or um even more uh to the point something like uh um Legends and Lattes uh which uh is just a fantastic dissection of fantasy and you know uh fantasy universe. I'm getting way off topic. Anyway, Jack, you can be the change you want to see in this world, right? You can write that book if you want. I could uh similar to my perspective on uh Night Shift, I feel only comfortable with so much uh before I go like this is out of my wheelhouse. This is for someone with lived experience to actually uh parse the ethics of. Um, okay. So, here's the scoop. Uh, in 2026, next year, it'll mean it'll be 10 years, uh, of doing something under the banner name of the Cardboard Herald, which started it launched in October

32:45 2016. Um, and, uh, that has gone without pause except for once where I took a couple months off. um having uh had some uh family stuff that I wanted to uh focus on and kind of take a break to just assess where I wanted the podcast and the channel to go, right? Um and over this time we've had a few different contributors. Uh I'm the creator and uh I guess head of like what is the tonality uh of this whole thing? Um, but I'm not a businessman. Uh, I am not jack business Eddie. I think I'm pretty good at like leadership and management in a lot of regards. Um, but I'm ill motivated by uh money. Um, not to say I don't like money. Uh, I I I think money is very important to have. Um, but this has always been a creative pursuit and a creative passion. Uh, and the moment where it becomes how to chase dollars has always been something that uh, uh, sucks a lot of the fun out of it for me. But at the same time, those dollars are what goes into funding trips for uh going to Philly and covering packs

34:16 unplugged, which has been the source of uh so much um uh connections in the industry. Uh that's been a way for new camera equipment to come in. Uh that's been the way to uh be able to get someone like Eric uh to do some things uh for the channel and be like, "Hey, uh we can get you some review copies for games and then also, you know, anything that you don't get review copies of, but if you really want to play it, we can buy it." Um and so the channel essentially pays for itself right now. Uh, and I think there are ways to uh capitalize on the channel uh to make it a little more profitable without uh sacrificing uh some of the um the the creativity and and the the earnest approach that we have. Um in my head, I've always thought of that that Field of Dreams line, if you build it, they'll come. Yeah.

35:19 But I I think there there's still been this kind of nagging thought in the back of my mind um that happened maybe about six years in and then has kind of persisted since then where every year I start reflecting and go well if I stopped then this could be just like a a great that was a project and a chapter in my life. Um, however, if I am continuing to do it, I want to do it in a way that it feels like it is reaching new audiences, that it's responding, that it's iterating, that it's becoming better than it was in the past. One of the only metrics that we have for that is are people responding it to it more? Are there more views? Are there more subscribers? or you know like those are the things that give the feedback that theoretically uh you're you're achieving something new. Um so those are the things that you really reach to but at the same time it's not really growing that much.

36:31 It's still growing. It's definitely we're getting new subscribers. Um we hit 11,000 recently. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that that's the background for like just thinking about what do we want to do, what do we want to make that people respond to and how do we create it uh in such a way that we feel good about what we do, we feel validated and rewarded. Like I would like eventually um to have this be something where uh you know like it does make a little bit of money uh that it does make money that I can pay to Eric as well because right now he's here on a volunteer basis aside from getting games. Uh which I am too, you know, like I'm not pocketing money Herald. We we the channel covers its cost specifically if you do not count labor hours, which I we're not going to like I don't think we are ever going to be a channel that counts labor hours, at least for like the the near-term future, which is why we're kind of chatting about it. But it's like we cover we cover things that are like have a very tangible cost of new camera equipment or new microphones or new board games that we can't give review copies of, but Right. Uh yeah, you know, so just so the audience uh is aware where we are as the Cardboard Herald. Um we have uh if I look at Squarespace's

38:05 uh RSS uh subscriber stuff, which I don't know if you've ever looked under the hood on that. I have not. Not on not on Squarespace. Yeah. So on Squarespace uh and I've always been a little distrustful of Squarespace's analytics for this and I think Squarespace uh users like if you go to the Squarespace Reddit uh are also a little like it's kind of hanky but uh indicates uh 5,286 subscribers on the RSS feed for April 1st through 30th of 2025. Um which is pretty good. Um, we recently started putting these on Spotify. Uh, which Spotify we haven't really put a lot of time into growing an audience, but you know, there's two to 300 streams uh that uh happen over the last uh 30 days. Um, specifically says 258. Um, Patreon. Uh, we have a Patreon with 12 patrons, which we are very grateful for. Uh and then uh we have YouTube revenue uh that comes in and that's the uh entire oh well I guess there there's other metrics for uh as Eric mentioned we have recently reached 11,000 subscribers on YouTube. Um and then social media. Uh I had built a large

39:39 enough um presence on Twitter when I first started and that was a really exciting place. Um and because of some of the political stuff going on recently, uh I've ceased using um Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Uh, and I have a Blue Sky account that I try to interact with there. Uh, but our social media presence is almost exclusively on YouTube at this point. Um, I want to build uh the the blue sky presence more for just better interactivity. It's, you know, like meeting up with friends that I've developed over uh years up on Twitter uh and X. Uh but um uh right now we're at like 300 subscribers there. So point being th those are the me metrics that we have.

40:39 Um and uh you know like I have some specific goals. I I have some specific things that I I'd like uh to see as far as content um that we develop and lean into. Uh, but like I guess what are your reflections on this, Eric? Having uh now been with Cardboard Herald for almost a year, you know, if what prompted this was me checking in, like how are you doing? How are you enjoying it? How are you liking contributing? What do you feel about the uh channel and its current state, where we have to go, where we have to grow, and and your own involvement as a volunteer? Yeah, I mean, I'm I've definitely enjoyed having like an outlet to talk about board games just because they are like such a huge part of my life and they're definitely something that I interact with I interact with a lot. So, it's nice to have like a I am this is more than just I like board games. I am I am being more committed to board games as a whole by making all this content. So, I've been like incredibly enjoying having the chance to be like a person who is able to put their thoughts together in videos and having like a lot of from what I've been able to tell pretty positive feedback from people uh with the content I'm putting out. Um, I think there are a few

42:11 different avenues that I am interested in exploring in this upcoming year. So, I've I've talked to Jack about this briefly, but like I have some plans to make more YouTube shorts just because that we put out one that was like a sketch from Molly House and that like was by such a wide margin like exploded more than I think any other short had. And then I mean it didn't it had like one huge peak and then it didn't have like a ton of continued views, but I feel like that to me signaled that that's a avenue we can go down. And so I I mean we already were talking about kind of doing it a little bit. We've been trying to put together some reviews that are shorter that could fit within the shorts context. Um. Mhm. But I think maybe doing some more dedicated I'm creating things for a short as opposed to I am creating a video and then exporting out like just the sket this the skit part of it uh to be a short. Um that's something that I think could be just another avenue for us to as the Cardboard Herald Cardboard Herald explore a bit more. Um, right.

43:35 We've done, I think, a pretty good job with our videos, and I think our videos are kind of getting better all the time, but at at the same point, we we have hit like I feel like a bit of a we're growing a little bit slower than we have previously. Yeah. What I what I find really interesting is I think that my own delivery is much stronger uh than it has been in the past. The the video clarity is a lot better. Uh and my criticism I think of games is more uh to the point of what I really want to say. Uh but in a lot of ways um the the videos are uh viewwise um fewer than what they were say 5 years ago. Um there's a lot of reasons that could be. It could be that we, you know, like it could just straight up be we make a type of content that not as many people like. Um, I don't think that's necessarily uh it because I do feel really proud of what we do. Uh, and I think that what we do is uh smart and informed, funny uh, and digestible in a way that uh, that there's certainly an audience for it. Um, it could be that

45:05 from like an algorithm point of view, an SEO point of view, we're kind of getting buried and not surfaced. Uh, in many ways, um, I think it could also be the types of games, uh, that we're covering. Uh, though again, I don't know that that's necessarily the case. Um, because I I think a lot of people would be interested in what we have to say regardless of what game that we're covering. Certainly not everyone. There's going to be a lot of casual audience that has no attachment to the Cardboard Herald or, you know, like us as personalities um and are just looking for a review on Molly House or whatever. Yeah. Um but uh I think there's also um like a marketing uh component um you know which is one of those things where uh I'm not so naive as to think that uh the the artistic integrity uh takes all precedence and uh that any degree of marketing is um compromising that artistic integrity.

46:16 Um, you know, like I I think there are smart ways that you can present the same quality of content that you want to do. Um, which is the same thing with the monetization, you know, like uh we have not done paid content for the most part on this channel. Um, there are a couple moments where I've had uh paid sponsors where I experimented with it. um for uh like a a series of four videos I did, you know, like five or six years ago. Uh and then I I had one uh uh creative uh uh publisher very much insist that they wanted to pay for preview content. uh and the amount of discomfort that I had in getting paid for uh doing that and how to present it uh and the relationship that it made uh between myself and the publisher. Even though they were perfectly wonderful, they invited any level of criticism that I wanted to give to the game. They were insistent that they just felt that it was important that if I was investing my time, effort and energy that I should be paid for this work, which is true, you know, like if I were asking someone else to uh do something, I do feel they should be paid or compensated or have some vested interest in it.

47:45 Um and and yet that's not an avenue that I've wanted to go down is to charge for uh any of the uh previews that we do. That's why I stick to the terminology reviews because I want them to be reviews of prototypes that we get, reviews of games that we get. We're not going to charge for those. Um, and uh, if we're not going to be doing that, then I think there are smarter ways to try to um, attack the content uh, to uh, to promote ourselves uh, and to encourage engagement in a community and growth that will make it satisfying for the next year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there's I feel like especially now that I've been here for a year and I I feel like I have a lot stronger foothold on I mean I have a background in film making but I haven't like I stepped away from it for a bit. I hadn't done it for I definitely didn't do it in this format for a while where making I'm making videos for YouTube as opposed to working on uh I used to work on commercials music videos as a PA in AD just for my background for the audience because I don't know if I've ever talked about my film my my time in the film industry. Um but like I have a background in making videos but I did didn't have a

49:16 background in making board game reviews. So now I'm feel a lot more like I have my feet under me. I kind of I I am approaching videos with more and more ambitious plans of like what the video is going to look like. Um and now it's kind of just making sure that I give myself enough time to make them. And I feel like I don't know if that's going to I I kind of doubt that that's going to like revolutionize the channel, but Right. I I do think it might be giving our it just gives another access point to the audience of just a on top of your your style of videos which so far have also been my style of videos. And I'm not going to go like off the deep end here. I'm not going crazy. I'm not going psycho mode here, Jack. Okay. Right. Um but I do think that it might be a little bit more uh playing around maybe a bit more. I mean, you've had videos that are like kind of a stylistic break from your typical things. Like, I think even your parks reviews have been like a pretty significant stylistic break. And I think that there just might be more videos that break our typical style. Um, as long as I'm giving myself the space to actually do that, which I intend to. I

50:47 always intend to. I mean, there there have been some videos I've made recently where I had much grander plans and then I went out to film it and the microphone didn't work or something else happened and then I had to like last minute change plans and now I'm just standing in front of a wall. what what I want the Cardboard Herald to be um separate from growth uh is I want it to stay true to the the roots of anyone who's contributing to this channel is just very passionate uh about sharing a joy for board games and interested in more than just the surface level enjoyment of the games. We're interested in the stories of the people who make them, the stories of how they get made, um, and also the kind of dissection of what makes games scratch certain itches, you know, like it's not enough for me to um to to like watch a review. Like a lot of the reason that the reviews are structured in the way that they are um is when I watch a review, if someone is just going over a how to play of the mechanics, I often just skip over that.

52:09 And I recognize that there's a ton of people that want more exploration of the mechanics of the game, much more of a how to play. But for me, that is only important in so far as uh it helps me understand why someone does or does not like a game. Um, I'm the type of person who likes watching reviews for games that I've already played. Um, and same thing for movies. I rarely will watch like a a video essay or a review or, you know, something on a movie that I've already seen, but after I've seen it, I'm interested to hear some dissection of it. And that's the the angle that I've always tried to take with reviews is give enough context about the game and how it works to then provide some sort of analysis on why I like it or why someone else might like it or some of the things that I might have issues with. Um, but doing it in such a way that it kind of hones in on a couple key angles without feeling like I'm also giving a list of here's all 15 great things about this game and all 15 terrible things about this game. Um, yeah, there there's so much room to be creative in this space and there's so many different ways to tackle it. I I don't know that that's necessarily what um the best approach is, but it's certainly become what we're known for

53:41 and our audience does really respond to. But within even that, we have a lot of room to be really creative. And having Eric on recently has helped encourage me certainly um to get creative again with the presentation on the review, something that I felt had grown kind of stagnant. And so there's a lot more creativity in, you know, like how we're having fun or different camera angles or experimenting with like going different places or using different equipment. Um, and those are things that I I attribute to having a partner that can kind of share some of the logistical responsibility behind the scenes, even if we're in completely different cities. um that I have enough of relief from the pressure and tension that I can lean into a lot more of the fun and levity of creating this stuff again. Like the parks review um like uh recently making some puppets for our deep regrets review. Those are very cute puppets. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and it hearkens back to one of the favorite memories that we have on the channel period of the old Spirit Island sock puppets. Um, and uh I think there's just a lot of cool creative space uh that we're in uh that we can experiment with. Um, and that's what we're doing right now, what we're cooking uh with some of the

55:12 interviews that we're lining up uh for both of us to do. um some of the reviews that we're working on and how we're working on presenting them. So that way they're stylistically varied, but uh I guess delivery the the what's at the heart of them is still within the the realm of what we know and expect and want out of uh our our analysis. Um, I think I think the the channel is in the the best place that it's ever been, which is really exciting for me. Yeah. And I I think that we're having two people. I feel like one has made it much easier for me to jo like it's made it easier for me to join the channel where I don't feel like I have to be like it's much better to join a channel than it is to start up a channel. like just in terms of it is much less daunting to be like, "Oh, Jack already has this thing running." It's easy for me to hop in to what he's doing cuz one I like before I hopped on the channel was like watching your videos with regular like I know you're my friend so it was like a thing that I would do as a like oh yeah what's Jack watch like what's Jack played recently.

56:28 I haven't seen him in a bit. Uh just cuz I had some crazy schedules for a little bit in Juno and I still have crazy schedules here. But uh I think it was something where I already felt like I I I knew what a tone of a Cardboard Herald video was going to be, so it was easy for me to kind of hop in. Um and I also agree where and I I feel like we had a really good example of this earlier. I don't I also don't want to be the person that like explains the rules bit by bit cuz like even like in so far as unless I'm doing it to talk about why I think I'm going to like a game such as I didn't really want to get super deep into the rules on Galactic Cruise. But I did want to point out that there are reasons why I think it's going to be better multiplayer versus solo.

57:18 Um, I I definitely like agree with that principle of the Cardboard Herald where we are more about overarching things as opposed to the nitty nitty-gritty of uh what we are uh what we're talking about. But yeah, and then kind of as you said, having two people makes it a lot easier to give yourself the time to make a great video. like if if two of us are making videos, I know that I've uh Jack's definitely been the one who's been making more videos overall, but he does I feel like I I feel like having a a video every now and then just give you an extra week or something to make a video because you know you have some stuff in the backlog from me or from you. Uh right, helps out a lot. And we have a we have I think quite a few things in the backlog that uh the audience I think is going to be really happy to see. Uh and I spoiled some of those things recently two two podcasts ago or something like that.

58:26 Um so here here are some of my goals. Uh and um so everyone knows that I'm not entirely exploiting uh Eric. Uh, one of the, uh, things I talked to Eric about when I initially was like, "Hey, I have this Cardboard Herald thing. You've been an awesome supporter on that. Uh, how would you like to help with contributing? I am up for discussing what that looks like as far as, you know, like compensation for that." Um and uh I even uh have gone so far as to discuss um uh a part ownership or profit sharing that kind of stuff if we can build up to that point. And that that is still the direction that I want to go. I don't think I'm ever going to not be um the majority owner of Cardboard Herald. It is too much my baby. Uh but uh I do want to be able to um eventually get to the point where uh myself and Eric, more importantly Eric, because I own this as an institution and in theory as it grows then it continues to grow and it pays for me to go on trips. It pays for me to have you know

59:58 games as review copies and all that kind of stuff. and I get a lot of satisfaction out of it as I know Eric does as well. But um you know like I I would like to get to the point where um a portion of the money that the Cardboard Herald brings in per month is something that uh Eric can see like his efforts directly tied to. Um, and he has graciously uh, as one of the best humans on the planet been like, "Hey, I want to make sure that we just focus on like growing and that I enjoy doing this at first. I'm not worried about compensation." Um, and uh, we'll revisit that um, once we get further in. And we're not going to be drawing up contracts on air or anything. We're not uh, I think the audience would love dense legal ease.

1:00:51 Yes, of my people talking to your people, nailing down percentages. But over the next year, uh that that is one of my goals is that uh the financial portion of Cardboard Herald goes up enough that we continue to cover the costs that we have covered up until this point. And we get to the point where Eric can actually see that labor is going in and that has a direct correlation to finances uh coming out even if it's small uh because initially that's still going to be more than I'm getting out of it. Um then uh and then hopefully making parody uh out of that.

1:01:38 Um how to do that uh is really out of um you know it's either got to be we start selling something so that could be merchandise that's a little bit beyond uh my brain capacity right now but Eric fortunately ran all of like Devil's Club I did you know merchandising and that kind of stuff. I had some good merch. Yeah had some good merch. Uh so we can start thinking about that. Um, there are much smaller channels with a lot more merch presence uh than us. Do we have any merch presence? No, we got to get ourselves a

1:02:23 YouTub and and and bring stuff to the masses and bring joy and be bring enthusiasm. Um, I'm not great at capitalizing on that. And so, you know, that that's one of my big shifts that I want to uh bring into the new year. And one of the reasons why I approached Eric is because as he got his bearings, I knew that he could bring a different uh focus and level of uh professionalism and maybe uh business savvy to uh how we were uh uh doing this because I mean, look at me. I grew up just wanting to be an artist and a social worker. And now I do creative stuff in my in my in my personal time and social work stuff in my professional time. Neither of that screams how do I, you know, monetize this. Um, but uh there's merch. Um, so that would be a nice way to go, but more on the like how to get validation out of the things that we do.

1:03:32 Um, I think it's possible with our level of subscribership if we learned how to better play essentially the YouTube game. Um, I would like if we got to the point where we could just confidently know that every video that we put up uh is going to get at least 1,000 views. I think that should be possible with 11,000 subscribers. Um, especially if we're in theory attracting people who are not subscribers to also watch those reviews. Um, that seems completely reasonable. And part of the reason why I want to do that is because we are a known name in the community. Like there are a lot of people who see us at conventions. Uh publishers know us, you know, like publishers uh will comment on our our videos. Designers know us. We have long-standed history. And yet sometimes it's like, "Oh yeah, well this video has 20,000 views. Um this one only has 200." Uh, and it would be nice if we just kind of bring that bottom up. Um, I think there's a lot of reasons why uh we're in that kind of state. Hopefully, we can figure that out. That would be, you know, kind of the like viewership thing. I'm less worried about growing subscribership. I'm more wanting to see how we make it so these videos surface

1:05:03 more uh and engage people, get more interest. Um, I'd love to give a better reason for people to be patreons or patronons. Patrons on Patreon. Yeah, there we go. Patrons on Patreon. Um, again, you know, like it it's one of those things. I I hate asking people for money. I'm terrible at the call to action thing that, you know, like anyone who's in YouTube is like, you know, like you got to give a call to action. You know, you got to point people to this. if you don't recommend it, then people aren't going to hear it. Um, it's not shilling. It's not shilling. It's actually, you know, like what you're doing to survive. But even still, I feel awkward being like, "Hey, you should go to our Patreon."

1:05:50 Um, I can get over some of that. But also, I think if I'm asking people for money, I should find ways of also making that feel like you are involving yourself in a project. Uh that you are validated uh at very least with gratitude uh for doing so and that you have some sort of insight to what we do. Um, and that's something that I'll admit, uh, I've been really terrible about. Um, there are people who give money every month to the Cardboard Herald that they don't have to. Um, and that's huge. Uh, and I want to both recognize and reward the people who already do that as well as give meaningful reason for new people to come and support this project. Um, so that way we do, you know, like have the ability to do the things that we want.

1:06:50 Um, so that's another thing over the next year that I really want to invest in. And I think that's an important way that we could really kind of get that sense of community going that would help with the other aspects of this. Um, and the last thing that I have written down is I want more of just like other stuff. Reviews are great. Interviews are great. Those are both great. Publishers love those. I like doing them. But I think there's room for other things in this space that are also interesting and of value. Um whether it's the uh all parks one box uh creative uh yeah video that I I did uh where it was like hey you know like if you have an X-Acto knife you can fit all your Parks content in one box because it's crazy that you can't right now. Um or uh I just recorded a bunch of stuff. Uh, I should be working on a video here soon on how and why you should like keep index cards in your game boxes.

1:08:00 Um, so you can have like a a at home creative way of creating reference cards as well as writing down uh rules, clarifications, and niche things that are reminders. So that way you don't have to look them up every time that you play a game. Uh and you just have that in your box and you know like an argument for why you do that. Um I think there's more room for us to have discussions on specific topics or interesting things or just show engagement and creativity because we are creative, interesting, enthusiastic people who want to help other people engage with their hobby more. Yeah. And I think that there's there's a lot of videos that we we've maybe turned into a podcast of like a discussion on a certain topic that we could have just made a video, which we might still do, but like it there are a lot of things that we can make videos of that are a bit more evergreen so they just are constantly getting used as opposed to maybe a bit more topical. because like a board game review is pretty topical to when that video in board game are released. Uh, right. So, I think having just some things like the cardboard academy. Uh, yeah, having the index card

1:09:33 video, I think that's great. I'd tune into that if I just saw that on a random channel. Like, that's something that I would be interested in seeing of what is what is what is the index card system? Yeah. Um, I think that there is a lot that we can explore without breaking our backs in trying to uh cover a ton of content. Um, that, you know, like more isn't necessarily better. And that's something that I always try to remind myself. Um, I do try to make it so if we get any review copies that we do reviews of that and as review copies are thrown at us that sometimes means that we have a lot that we have to cover. Um, so I'm trying to get a little bit more guarded about what we promise to publishers. Um, and there are some uh situations where I'll be like, "Hey, if you're approaching us to do this," and you're like, "We really want to get this into your hands." Then saying like, "Yes, I if you can send it to us as long as you're happy with we are going to cover this however we feel appropriate." Yeah.

1:10:51 Um, and I think that's overall pretty fair so long as you're transparent upfront and uh not promising uh something that you can't deliver on. Yeah. Um, so I don't know like um uh we're we're working on this. I I don't want to give uh some sort of dow uh this is all going to fall apart or I'm like super dismayed by where the Garboard Herald is. I try not to get caught up in the numbers too much uh because that's a recipe for like disaster or depression. Yeah. Uh if you're always comparing yourself to um where peers are where people who started earlier and you're like analyzing well what are they doing what that I I need to be doing. That's a recipe to just make it terrible. Um I really like doing this. I really like doing this with Eric. Uh, and I am more proud of what we are creating and delivering and how the community is responding to it when it actually is getting in their faces than I ever have been. Um, I just want to make sure that every year in which we embark on doing more of a creative project that we are doing it in such a way where we are feeling that it is also being valued that it is growing

1:12:22 that there is challenge and you know reward out of it. That's why anyone does anything. Yeah, totally. And I think that we we've built a really strong base and now I think it's kind of the hope is one to get that base of like 11,000 subscribers to like what do we need to do to get them to watch the videos with more regularity and just maybe help us explore explore some things that we haven't gotten to explore yet with with different uh different kinds of content, different stylistic breaks. Um, maybe more interviews. I mean, I think that's the thing that I'm planning on doing is just having more casual more of like the casual interviews that I did with Nick Murray um with different designers and publishers. Uh, just cuz I had a lot of fun with that. It's more that one's more just I think that's really fun. And I think that's a fun way to introduce these people where there's, you know, I think interviews as a whole sometimes can just be very

1:13:35 uh uptight. And I think that having having this like we're we're relaxed. We are both in our own home. We're zoom we're zooming or discording and we're just chatting. Yeah. And you know, like I I think that that's something that historically I've strived for as well is to have more conversational interviews. Um that's something that I'd like to do as well. Um, you know, like, uh, uh, the last couple of interviews I did, uh, were, um, with John Declair and I did one with Keith Pigot and then, um, uh, Josh Yearsley of, uh, Leader Games.

1:14:21 Um, I feel really good about uh, uh, all of those and want to do more of that. Um, and I think there's opportunity uh for doing more of that, especially considering that, you know, we've done well over a hundred interviews with different creative gamers and game creators. Uh, and just being able to talk about awesome fun things is is a big part of uh what makes this um this channel vibrant and lively. Um, so we're definitely going to do more of that. Uh, both of us will have more interviews. Um, I still want, uh, Eric to kind of be the the head of the podcasting department. I think he has a lot of natural strengths uh, for that. Um, and that's probably going to mean that uh, more interviews are going to be uh, from him, but we'll we'll see. We're going to play that out. Yeah.

1:15:21 Um, we have some more ideas for some like other experimental stuff uh that we might want to try with like um uh I don't know uh we've talked about some role playing game stuff. Yeah. Um and we we definitely want to uh continue covering like newer games as well as older stuff. Like I I don't want to lose sight of old games, you know? Yeah. And I mean, I think that a lot of the ideas that I've had for shorts rely on like this is a game that I really enjoy, but there's not really it doesn't make as much sense to do a full podcast on it, but if I do a YouTube short just being like this is why I love this game, that's a thing that I'd be interested in exploring. And I think that's a thing that we can explore because we haven't really done too many shorts and that's a good way to go through the older games. Uh cuz you and I both I mean there are so many older games out there that people should still be appreciating. And I do think that there's a I not like moral dilemma for us as content creators, but just like the cult of new is so strong that I feel like having a lot of content saying older games are also still really great. Um yeah, can also counteract that. Like you're playing through Aon's End right now. Like that is not a game that has

1:16:53 come out recently. Surprise. What what I like doing on those is almost like a video essay type of thing where it's almost, you know, like I watched Gone Girl recently, uh, which is a a great David Fincher movie. Um, and, uh, it's one of those movies where afterwards I watch it and I kind of want to watch a video essay that kind of pulls it apart. Mhm. Um and um there playing an old board game. I think there is an interesting analysis that you could make about why is that still interesting? Why does it have staying power? And I started scratching on that itch uh with um uh the first time I think I used the dusting the cardboard name was on our Lords of Water Deep uh review. I'm pulling that up right now. Yeah. Uh and uh the the title is Dusting the Cardboard: The Case for Lords of Water Deep. Uh because it the game was just hitting 10 years old at that point. Uh and I wanted to do more of a video essay, a short video essay on like why does this still have staying power? Like why why is this still relevant? Why is this still interesting?

1:18:14 Why do I think people should still consider it relevant? because the the game hasn't gone away. It's still being manufactured. It's still being purchased. Um and I'll probably do something very similar with Aon's End. Um and we did uh the Kitia uh Lord of the Rings. Um we did another Dusting the Cardboard uh review on that um because it was one that kept on coming up in uh interviews I did. I did an interview with Bruno Catala and an interview with Matt Lecock where they were both talking about it as a shared inspiration for uh Pandemic and Shadows Overcame a Lot. And so I was like, you know, there's no reason to cover this game from a new hotness perspective, but I think that there should be a little video essay on like why this game was either relevant at the time that it came out or why it's still worth checking out. Yeah. Um so the There's room for cool creative insight into the hobby that way, too. Yeah, totally.

1:19:18 Um, yeah, I mean, I think that we we have a lot of avenues that both of us, I think, mutually want to explore. So, um, we're also open to like if there's something you're dying to see from us, we're down to consider it. Uh, and you can leave a comment uh either on this video or on Spotify uh or email us at cardboardherald@gmail.com. Um, we also are frequently posting on on our YouTube uh either as a post or as a video. And you know, that's a great spot to let us know. As Jack said, we're pretty active there. We're active on Blue Sky as well if you want to find us on there. Um, thank you to Sapion010 and also Blue Seek Pearl for your uh positive vibes and comments uh on our post just stating that we were going to do a state of the channel. I realize now looking back that it might seem a little bit doom and gloom. Uh I maybe could have worded that differently of just like we're going to do a routine maintenance check as opposed to we're doing a state of the channel.

1:20:28 Uh you were just doing a routine maintenance check for everybody. Uh yeah. And and I assume that anyone who has listened through the entirety of this and has gotten to this segment here uh that you are someone who likes hanging out with us. And uh the the podcasts that I have most listened to like um a huge inspiration for me was the Giant Bottom cast uh back in the day. uh now the next lander podcast where it's been people who I found that like their personalities just clicked with me and I enjoyed spending time with them on a weekly basis as superficial as that sounds as you know like an audience but you know I would go on a run in the middle of the Tongous rainforest and be like oh yeah what's uh what's Brad and Vinnie and you know like what's Abby up to you know like and just like listening to them talk about video games and interesting insight and thoughtprovoking stuff. It gave me an avenue to spend time with these people uh and um you know like engage in a way uh if you're listening to this right now then you must be the most Cardboard Herald fan. Uh because this isn't about a specific topic. Um this isn't with a specific guest. uh this truly is the most um uh self-focused of uh any of

1:21:59 this. Um, so if there are things that you as fans, as friends of the Cardboard Herald, as people who like hanging out with Eric and I, uh, who want to see us continue to make the things that we make or think that we have potential to, uh, grow, uh, and and change um, and, uh, create a bigger presence, uh, in the board game space, then, you know, like we want to hear that honest feedback. back. Um, if there are things on our channel that you really don't care for, even though you're one of the few who are actually making it to here, give that honest feedback, too. Um, and not everything has to be for everyone. So, you know, you giving that honest feedback doesn't mean that we're going to like act certain things or whatever.

1:22:52 Bottom line, um, all of this has been, uh, the the entire Carboard Herald experiment, uh, has been about a dialogue, uh, between the people hosting it and an audience about sharing enthusiastic love for tabletop gaming and the people who make it. So, um, let us know. And, uh, thanks. Yeah, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for listening, and thanks for being an awesome community. Uh, I have been Eric joined not as always by Jack. Uh, here with the Cardboard Herald, always in heart. Later.