Nathan Defends His 5 Most Controversial Takes | Co-Founder Last Night Games | CardboardTakes ep_002

0:00 My first take is the best that the best board games. Name me a cheaper form of than a Carter board game. You don't have to be in the games. Games don't have to be to have good depth and strategy. Uh itchy and take more work to maintain them. Here's here's another take. We'll see if you agree with this one.

0:38 Well, I I really appreciate you jumping on with me here. This is only the second episode and really one the first true episode in the format that I want this to kind of be in the future. Um the first one was um origins takes with a couple different people.

0:53 I watched it. Yeah.

0:54 Oh, did you? And so, you know, maybe you'll have some Origins takes. I I met you very briefly. I spoke to your brother just a little bit longer. So, I I I appreciate you fielding my emails after that after I slked around your your uh your booth for probably too long. I don't want to waste too much time because we have to get into your takes, but give us a quick rundown

1:15 who Nathan Jenny is, what Last Night Games are, and what you're excited about right now from your company.

1:22 Oh, sure. Yeah. So, I'm Nate Jenny. I'm uh co-founder and designer for Last Night Games. Uh it's just me and my brother and our families that that help out with Last Night Games. And um we specialize in uh light family weight strategy games. Um hopefully games that are exciting for everyone to play. And yeah, this year we have two new titles, Honeycomb Hustle and Feather Lane. And we're really excited about both of them. They're easy to learn and they play in like half [snorts] hour time. And I do have a pitch from Jake uh on my Origins video as well for Feather Lane. And I'll we I actually already have uh Mystic Manor as well. I love the concept of this. Um

2:06 Oh, it's it's a lot of fun.

2:08 Super fast turns,

2:10 right? And it's it's competitive ghost hunting, right?

2:13 Yeah. Yeah.

2:14 Like how cool is that?

2:16 Yeah. Yeah.

2:17 All right. So, we're going to jump right into it. Nathan Jenny, what's your take?

2:23 All right. My uh my first take is I have to go to my notes to make sure I get this right. My first take is flip and right games are the best. They're the best board games.

2:35 I kind of agree with that. Not rolling rights, flipping rights.

2:42 Flip flipping rights are the best. They're the best.

2:44 I would say myself, I would say verb and rights are extremely good. I would disagree with S tier or top tier. Tell me more.

2:53 So, yeah, I love I love your uh your talk about this. I have a a sub sub bullet on here, which is we really need to standardize on on like flipping rights, rolling rights, all the blank and right games.

3:07 We just need to call We need to call them

3:10 fill and rights. Here's my promotion. Fill and rights.

3:13 Fill and rights. Okay.

3:14 Because like fill in the blank and write or fill in the paper and write. I mean,

3:20 okay. I I I could get behind that.

3:23 No one's going to follow me on this,

3:25 right? Well, I think the closest has been burban, right? But, uh, people are still very much like against that. I talked to Tom Basil. He didn't want to call them verban rights uh either. I love the concept of and rights. Now, what about fliin rights are you so excited about?

3:41 Uh, no. So flip and writes are exciting to me just because there's something about making an entire experience out of nothing more than a paper, a pencil, and a few cards. Um, the first time I played Cgraphers, I was just like blown away.

3:59 The question is, do you have Do I even have it here? Oh, no. Sometimes I I have I have the right game at hand at the right time. Oh, what? I I have the full-fledged cgraphers like uh the mats and absolutely everything. We we were desperately addicted to that for a few months and had me go out and buy the the big one. Right. Do you play with all of the the extras? Um did you get all of like the Oh gosh, what was it? It was like

4:28 there's all these different mats uh maps that they put out uh that have types of hooks.

4:35 I don't have like all of the things. I have the base cgraphers and I have the base uh heroes cgraphers.

4:42 Okay.

4:42 Play with those. Both of those.

4:44 You said cgraphers. What else as a flip and right qualifies

4:49 as the best genre ever?

4:51 I love uh the welcome to onesh.

4:54 Mhm.

4:54 Um I love all of the um next station games I think are great.

5:01 Yep. Next. I have next station Tokyo I'm looking at right now.

5:05 Yeah. So, I've got London, Japan, or yeah, London, Tokyo, and um Paris. I love them all. So, I'm looking forward to the new one, I think, that's been teased for Berlin. Um and then uh so getting a little a little off maybe, but there's one called uh Roarin, right? Dino Island. Roarin, right?

5:26 I love that. I think it's better than Dinosaur Island.

5:30 Yeah, it's a great one. Right. And then um have you ever tried blueprints of castles of Mad King Ludwig?

5:38 No, I have not.

5:40 That one's really interesting. They kind of have like a vellum paper so you can kind of see through it and trace your little rooms that you're

5:45 Is that a flip and right? Cuz you already went off on Dinosaur Island.

5:48 Yeah, that's like it's it's getting out there a little bit. Maybe it's not truly a flip and right. What is wrong with a rolling right and not wanting to qualify it as the best genre board game genre of all time?

6:02 No, I I do love rolling rights. I was I was I was being a little clickbaity with my flip and rights of the

6:08 No, I I I like that. Have you played Flip Town?

6:11 I don't think I've played that one. Huh.

6:13 I think that's supposed to be like the best one from what I've heard of all the fliin rights. It's uh

6:17 it's going on my list,

6:18 right? Yeah. I haven't I haven't played it so I have no idea. Okay. So, what is the best flip and right of all time? Let's really get some shots fired here.

6:26 The best flip and right of all time. I've told a lot of people that I really dig Cgraphers. Um,

6:31 yeah,

6:31 it's a really good game. So, we we actually have made a flip and right as well and and I'm partial to that one, too, but I'll I'll leave that one off the list because

6:39 No, why don't you plug plug it for us? Give it give us the hook. So, we've we've made a a kind of it's easier than ctographers because there's not the polyomino fitting, but it's called horiculture,

6:51 and you flip over two cards. Uh, whoever's turn it is picks one of the two cards, but everybody simultaneously adds those two things onto their garden. Um, it's uh it's it's pretty easy play, but there's a lot of uh subtle strategy trying to fit things in their their different spaces. So there's six plants and they all score in specific sized groups.

7:12 So do you think that is the best one of all time in all reality if if you if you didn't disqualify yourself?

7:19 If I made it myself.

7:21 Yeah.

7:21 Uh I don't know. I feel it feels so wrong to to tout tout my own creation.

7:27 Yeah. But that's that's that's why we're here. I do love I I do I do love playing it, but I also love just exploring other people's games. Like,

7:38 do you play your own games a lot other than kind of play testing? Like once they're out in the wild, are you going to the shelf and grabbing your stuff?

7:46 Yeah, we've we we've played all of our games quite a bit after after publishing them.

7:51 Well, what are you playing right now uh from last night games?

7:55 That's that's still that's already published. Um,

7:59 so Honeycomb Hustle playing it a lot lately. Um, cuz it's brand new

8:04 and it's great.

8:06 It's great. You play with a lot of players. You're doing a bag building and you're building out this honeycomb every round and it just gets bigger and bigger and

8:14 and then you're kind of timing the end of the game so you can u gain all your victory points. Buy all your honey.

8:20 Yeah.

8:21 What is the best roll in right of all time?

8:24 The best roll in right? It's got to be. We have to use dice.

8:29 The best panda royale. How can I not say Panda Royale?

8:34 Plays up to 10 players. 106 dice included in this game.

8:38 There's 106 dice in that game.

8:40 Yeah,

8:41 that's insane. I a buddy brought it brought that over to a a game night and I didn't realize there was that many dice in the box. That was a pleasant surprise. I had at that point I mean this was months ago. I had never heard of Banda Royale and I was like, "Oh, that was great." Yeah. In a 10-player game, you use 104 of the dice. Only two are left in the bag at the end of the game.

9:00 Is that your most successful game to date?

9:04 Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

9:05 Yeah.

9:06 Super.

9:06 Was that the first thing you uh you published?

9:10 No, it's uh where did it lie? Fifth game, I think, that we published.

9:16 Very good. For my So, my vote for best rolling right is um Oh, sis. Uh the sisters one. Oh my gosh. Three sisters. Three sisters. Yeah. I I love I love the really crunchy ones. I have three sisters. Uh oh, also Fleet the Dice game is so good.

9:32 Fleet. Yeah. Have you played My City? The The Rolling Wright version of My City?

9:37 No, I haven't. Do I need to play that?

9:39 That's a good one. It's a good one. Yeah. Um have you played uh Parks Rolland Hike?

9:46 I love Parks Rolling Hike. In fact,

9:48 that's a good one, too, right?

9:49 Yeah. I I made a short for it and I was just learning um After Effects and and wanted to make like a crazy edited short and I spent like six I spent like a whole day on it. Uh and I made a really cool short that's out there somewhere on that one. But that one was a big time pleasant surprise. I also like Parks too.

10:06 Yeah, Parks is a great game.

10:08 Although they're not not really related.

10:10 Oh, I was going to say another flip and right. Oh, the Have you played the aisle of cats flipping right?

10:15 I haven't played something.

10:18 I haven't played that one. I played regular Isle of Cats.

10:21 Isle of Cats is is is a great game. Uh if you want basically all of the feels in a much smaller box, just go that one. It's

10:28 okay. It's also on my list and something. I can now of course I'm not remembering the names and I don't see it in my purview. U but anyways, you know, I could go with the verban rights all day long. That is a it is a very fun genre. I hold on. I'm getting

10:42 I thought I thought I was going to get you with that one. And I thought you were going to disagree hard on my

10:46 Well, I I disagree, but I would have to really think about it. Like, what could I say that's better? I mean, is it deck building? Is it is I mean, because we're essentially t talking about like marquee mechanics, worker placement, arguably, which is like, you know, the most basic action selection, yet it's like kind of like permeated so many different thousands and thousands of games. So, but I can't necessarily argue with it. So maybe you'll get me on this next one. I don't know. So let's move on. Uh in in the spirit of trying to get me to disagree, what's your take?

11:26 All right. My next take is you can't name me a cheaper form of entertainment than a card or board game.

11:35 Just any form of entertainment or

11:38 any form of entertainment. What's what's cheaper than a board or card game? I mean, I I actually totally agree. You know, a deck of cards is basically free, right? And you can play, you know, you know, hearts, spades, like so on so forth forever and ever and ever.

11:56 Uh I'm trying to think. I mean, just going out and walking in nature is free,

12:00 you know, that's that's fun. I mean, you're in Utah, right? You're you're in some beautiful uh

12:05 uh beautiful part of the country around here.

12:07 Yeah, exactly. We do, too. Up in Seattle. So actually I do I I disagree. Why is it the be is the cheapest form of of of entertainment especially in the midst of

12:19 I mean not with your company but most are just going insane on deluxification and giant games and huge boxes and and all of that stuff. Like how am I going to actually make it cheap,

12:30 right? Yeah. And and I think I thought that's maybe where you'd go is there's a lot of deluxification going on and and you know and and even there's climbing prices just with shipping and things going on in the world. So um yeah, I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately. Um I took my oldest to we went and watched He-Man a couple nights ago and

12:52 was it any good?

12:53 Yeah. Yeah, it had some really funny part. I mean, if if you maybe remember the nostalgia of that it's

13:01 sheets back in the day, so I'm couldn't get anyone else in my family to go with me, so I have to wait for it to come out on streaming.

13:09 Yeah. Yeah. I got my oldest son to go with me. So, we went and watched it and uh it was already I think it's already leaving the movie theaters and so we had um I think $10 tickets. Um, but it was two of us and each ticket was $10. So, it was

13:25 And how nuts is that? Like that's that's cheap now for a for a movie,

13:30 right? Yeah. And that was like definitely on the low end for the movie.

13:33 Yeah.

13:34 Um, but so it's 20 bucks for for that experience. And um, you know, it lasted a couple hours, maybe a little more than a couple hours, but um, I can go and buy a board game or card game. So, uh, we recently, so same, we just played, um, the confusing lands game.

13:55 Oh, from, uh, Envyorn.

13:57 Envy. Yeah, exactly. We played that new, um, Ice Battle.

14:01 Like a little tile layer essentially.

14:03 Yeah. You have cards and you're laying the cards down. And so that was under 20 bucks and we played it like for a couple hours. So, and that's not the only time we're going to play it. I've played it before, too. So,

14:16 that is a really good point there. And I think a lot of people will point out what is it like dollars per play as they try to or some I've I've seen I guess that's board gamers math as you try to justify your ridiculous because in some cases it can be like oh it's like $20 a play and then you're like oh

14:33 that doesn't feel so good. But I do have some games that

14:37 uh I mean it's got to be under a dollar with the number of times I played it. And the smaller the box, I think there is a correlation with a low certainly a lower uh you know dollars per play or I guess it could be you know dollars per hour of fun. Um

14:53 and it seems like you might be trying to specialize in that with looking at your line. Is that like a core?

14:58 Yeah, I mean we're definitely trying to keep our games, you know, lower cost as much as we can. Um cuz they are, you know, our games aren't necessarily designed for like the hobbyist. They're designed for kind of just everybody to pick up and play and have fun. So, I think as part of that, we do need to try to focus on keeping our our prices down. So, we're not going to be like releasing like Gloom Haven uh price games or

15:21 Yeah.

15:22 or that

15:23 Well, is

15:24 that kind of experience?

15:25 Is like Mystic Manor. Is this your biggest box?

15:28 Yeah. Yeah. We have three games at that big box size and and they're all hovering around the the 40 $45 price point. So,

15:35 do you keep your box sizes consistent? We have Yeah. So, we have kind of like a big box size and then that more medium size which like Alpine Trails, Honeycomb Hustle are in.

15:46 I was just reorganizing. I just kind of put shelves up all all around this space here and and I was organizing Ivy Studios games and their boxes are all over the place and it's just for for a company that is so aesthetic uh driven, man, the different box sizes. If if I were giving my take, you know, I hate that that companies don't stay consistent uh with their box sizes.

16:13 David's first take.

16:14 Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. When I when I do this one myself, that is definitely u a take.

16:21 Um

16:22 well, there's good reasons to have the different sizes. I mean, we certainly have had to constrain ourselves to to meet that pattern that we're doing. So,

16:30 right. Uh, oh. So, has that how has that what what decision has that made for you trying to keep a game within a particular box size like when you're trying to put together components or the amount of content or what?

16:43 Yeah. Yeah. Components that are fitting in there and um just everything. I don't know if you've pulled open the Pender Royale box, but like it is so full of dice. Like it it barely fits in in that box. In fact, the factory originally told us they're like, "That many dice doesn't fit in the box." Like, "No, no, no. We tried it.

17:02 Give it a jiggle."

17:04 That's That's really funny. So, you got you have to jiggle it around to get it in there. Uh, and that's no lid lift, right?

17:10 Yeah. No lid lift.

17:11 Another hot take. I'm not a big fan of lid lift as well.

17:14 Oh, yeah.

17:14 You know what's funny? looking at my Everdell complete collection and it's the biggest box I've ever seen in my entire life and I I don't know what I did to it, but I have lid lift on it and that it's bothering me right now.

17:28 I don't know with a box that size, how the heck do I have lid lift? I don't know. I'm sure it's a personal issue.

17:34 Back to kind of value uh for fun.

17:38 What is the worst uh investment on board game fun you've made? So, the one the one that you spent the most on and you got the least amount of enjoyment from? [clears throat]

17:47 The one I've spent the most on and the least

17:52 like any one play Gloom Havens sitting in your collection or anything.

17:56 No, I see my I can only get my family to play um shorter, lighter games with me. So,

18:02 I'm trying to even think what's the most expensive game I've played. I think the most expensive game we've owned is Harvest from Key Master Game, but we've played it a lot of times. So,

18:14 Harvest is really good. I think that thing is underappreciated.

18:18 Yeah, it's a great one. Yeah,

18:19 it's one of those where you look at the it it kind of gives a very family weight and and it is for the most part, but it's like it's this super crunchy worker placement puzzle.

18:30 Yeah.

18:30 And it's it's it's it's deceiving with the art.

18:33 Mhm. It's it's it's a good one. Um my wife even went out and bought the um extra maple pack, so we have all the chunky.

18:41 I So I I was I just found mine in Barnes & Noble and picked it up, the regular retail copy, but then I saw the deluxeifications on it and how much I actually like the game and I was a little bit That's when I got the FOMO.

18:56 Yeah.

18:56 Are you still

18:58 going to jump into the deluxification? um you know what is it obsession out there at all? Have you thought about that?

19:09 Um yeah, we've we've absolutely thought about it. Um I

19:13 I think at this moment we don't feel like it really aligns with our target uh game audience. Um

19:18 right,

19:19 we're we're targeting, you know, those more casual lighter players. And I think it's more of a a hobbyist kind of thing to

19:26 right

19:27 get in and and like get the deluxe pieces. I mean,

19:32 oh, we have, but not lately. Not recently.

19:36 Why Why pivot away from crowdfunding?

19:38 Um, again, I don't know that it really targets our audience.

19:42 Um, and I know we're kind of just an odd duck out there, but

19:48 we we aren't necessarily honed in and focused on the hobbyists. And I don't I love you hobbyists and I I hope you enjoy our games and I hope you understand that our games do have a level of strategy that makes the game fun. It's not like you know super crunchy. It's not like a gricula or root kind of level fun. So I would though I'd push back a little bit on that and I would say hobbyists are always looking for great entry-level games that they aren't deathly bored of. Harvest is the perfect example. and harvest a little but still I have countless examples where I basically think of my collection as like it's this tool tool box and I have different tools for different for different scenarios right so if I find that really great kind of light entry-level game that's not making me fall asleep

20:43 right

20:44 you know I'm all for it for sure so

20:46 yeah that's definitely one of our goals so along those lines like I was saying, I don't think deluxification necessarily makes sense and and nor does the kickstarting kind of lends to the deluxification. I feel like a little

20:58 Well, it's like the one benefit that you're giving a backer for giving you a essentially a loan. Right.

21:04 Right. Yeah. So, I think it's great and I have games with nicer deluxe bits, but I don't think we're going to be going there anytime soon with the last night games lineup.

21:15 Very good. Okay, so let's move on. What do you have? Five takes or three?

21:20 Oh, I I have I have takes for days. I have at least

21:23 Let's keep let's keep going.

21:26 All right. Um here's here's another take. We'll see if you agree with this one. Um no, maybe you will agree with that one.

21:37 I'm trying I'm trying.

21:38 You're starting to get to know me and you're like, "Oh, you know, he's probably going to go with that one." I'll try my best to disagree with the next one. Um, okay. Here we'll go. I don't think family weight is a great descriptor for board games.

21:55 Oh, I completely agree.

21:57 Oh, come on.

21:58 But I'm in the family, you know, like that. It's an it's an awful descriptor. Keep going. Tell tell me more. Why Why is it a Why is it a bad descriptor of a of game weight?

22:09 I think it's just really broad, right? I think it's it's an incredibly broad descriptor and I think it it gives um maybe the wrong connotation to the to the games.

22:20 Um and you know, I mean, surely this is self- serving, but uh we've noticed, you know, sometimes people walk into our booth and they're like, "Oh, you make kids games." And I'm like, "Your infant can't play this game."

22:36 Right. Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

22:38 Oh, do you think my three-year-old games? How smart are your kids?

22:42 Like, yeah. I'm like, and and surely, you know, board games are a little like Lego, right? Like the Lego box says 16 plus, but you know, I've got my 12-year-old son like putting it together. Obviously, it's not I mean, you can't you can't appease everybody with with a number on a box,

22:58 right?

22:59 Um, but I think, and maybe it's our own fault, maybe our art's been a little too fun on on some of our games, but like, yeah, we get people in there like, "Hey, what would be good for my four-year-old?" and three-year-old. I'm like, "Oh, uh, all of our games are like at least 10 plus." I think we put eight plus on a game once and we were like, "Uh, let's bump that up." Because people were were like, "Oh, my four-year-old." And and that's not to say a lot of people have really smart kids. I've met plenty of four-year-olds that could play our games. That's amazing. But like, also, we're targeting kind of like a more mainstream audience and less of a hobby audience. And so their kids aren't going to be necessarily as adept at picking up the games because they didn't grow up in a gaming household maybe. So that's another reason like why we like to bump that age range up a little bit.

23:47 But

23:47 yeah, I think family game is like wait, can I play this with my friends? Can I my enemies? Can is it is it just for children? Is it like adults should play it with their teens and talk about real life experiences? Um I I just think family is kind of a weird space. Um also if but on the other hand if we called them adult games that would might have other connotations along with it.

24:15 Um and uh you know I've talked um with people about this. I'm like what what's the right thing? And people like oh well we I love to call them filler games. I'm like well that's a little

24:27 that's just time frame. Like how how how quick does it play? It has nothing to do with

24:31 I think that's the positive I think that's the positive spin on it. But sometimes I feel like it's kind of like it's not that good. That's why we know I think so. I I think

24:41 it's just who you talk to

24:43 value their time and you know filler might be a pjorative but I think it's

24:49 I think a lot of hobbyists call it

24:51 Yeah. I think a lot of hobbyists refer to the time frame for filler.

24:55 Yeah.

24:55 And then there's then there's the the gateway game. Oh, it's a gateway game. Well, and this this lends into my next hot take. So before we go to your next hot take though, the G so this this idea of gateway game is definitely a a misnomer because some what I've seen so I I've created a a board game community and I've and I've uh you know collected reviews relative to all different weights and interaction and and I've broken down over 9,000 games in these six different categories. And there's some people that just live in a particular sliver of games. They don't want to go anywhere else. And if they do, their the the their enjoyment goes down significantly. So saying it's a gateway game stops a certain user or certain customers from even looking at a game possibly instead of being a little bit more descriptive. And I think I would agree there.

25:52 Yeah. Yeah.

25:53 Um does this So you said this leads into your next take. Yeah.

25:59 Okay. Well, then let's let's go there, then.

26:01 You're you're going to agree with this one probably. But

26:04 um you don't have to be in the hobby to enjoy board games.

26:08 I agree with that for sure. Like, but so first let's let's back up. Define being in the hobby. Like, you know, are you are you

26:15 And I think that's a super subjective. Yeah.

26:18 Yeah. That's a super subjective thing. Like I mean, if if you're on BG, you're probably in the hobby. If you're coming to Origins and Gen Con, you're probably in the hobby. If you go to a local convention, I don't know. Would you say you're in the hobby then?

26:31 I would say you might be even more so in the hobby if you're going to the small local conventions.

26:36 Could be. Yeah. I It just depends, I guess, what kind of meetup it is. But yeah, now if your family pulls out games during the holidays, like probably not in the hobby, maybe, right? Like if that's the only time you're playing games.

26:48 So, and that right. And the reason I say that is like I think there's plenty of people for years and years that have been playing games that like gateway games that aren't haven't been sucked into the hobby, right? Like it's not the

27:01 the uh we play games all the time.

27:04 Yeah. And more I think about it, I complete I completely agree. I think uh you know being in the hobby can be seen as I'm such a pacifist

27:10 as a mental disorder up to an extent, right? like you it just you know it goes down to a a crazy rabbit hole um or can at least and you know my entire family nobody is in the hobby but I make them play games all the time and sometimes they'll enjoy them.

27:26 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I I don't think Jake and I realized how much we were gamers growing up. like um our parents just bought games like we just always had games like from

27:41 like from I I don't know I think when my parents were were first together they got games

27:46 and um played games and then just as we were growing up they're just they would always buy them for holidays or birthdays or something and so we just always had like

27:54 and you know it was like all the usual suspects and stuff

27:57 but

27:59 um so like when the newer style games started coming around it didn't even feel like a new thing had started. It just felt like, oh, some new good games are coming out, right?

28:08 Yeah. People are taking more time and designing and and and uh administering beautiful art and all kinds of stuff. That's I mean, I grew up the same way and I didn't really get into the hobby until I saw a copy of Wingspan and just like, "Oh my gosh, you could do this with a board game. This is so beautiful." And uh the the the depth and complexity uh you know, was the highest that I had ever seen in anything. you know, obviously that's changed now. Um, but yeah, it's 110%. Okay. Well, then we keep agreeing.

28:42 We're so agreeable.

28:43 Yeah,

28:45 we're to we're totally aligned.

28:47 Give me a good one. What's What's something that you just know other people are going to disagree with?

28:52 You might have started with the spiciest in flipping rights. Maybe we'll get the most comments on that one. I don't know.

28:58 Um, I I think [clears throat] I think the other big one I have a couple that aren't at all board game related.

29:07 Okay, those are great, too. We can sprinkle

29:09 those. Those those could be those probably don't even merit any discussion, but they might be spicy. Um,

29:16 I'll run over those two real quick.

29:17 Yeah,

29:18 Spock Spock is just an elf. He's a space elf.

29:24 I totally agree. And then and then uh and then um let me I got to read this so I get it right. Uh beards are itchy and take more work to maintain than no beard.

29:39 So I don't know if you remember seeing me at Origins, but I was not sporting a beard at Origins. And I usually don't sport a beard, but Jake does.

29:48 You've grown that in since Origins? I'm jealous.

29:51 Yeah. This is Yeah. So at Ori Friday morning of origins was the last time I shaved. So

29:58 why why go to the Did you do beard before that?

30:02 No, I I've only grown my beard out like this is probably only the second time I've really grown my beard out.

30:08 Um

30:09 so it's taken a a lot of uh

30:14 what is it? Grit to keep that thing on there.

30:16 Yeah. Yeah, it does. It takes a lot of effort. Um, and I know everybody will write in the comments like, "You just got to use the right oils and paints on your beard." Yeah.

30:26 What? Whatever. I don't know. Jake knows how to do it. And he grows a great beard. And, uh, you know, Jake and I grow almost the exact same beard, except mine's maybe more more gray than his. But, um,

30:37 Oh, he'll catch up. Don't worry.

30:39 Yeah, he'll he'll catch up. But uh no, there was just some some peer pressure that went on at Origins that that I should also be sporting a beard because there were several people we had talked to over the week that were dawning beards and [sighs]

30:53 you know people are going to be able to tell you apart. You your brothers both have beards.

30:59 Yeah, I'll still be the I'll still be the heftier one. I'll still be the skinny one.

31:06 Yeah. Well, you know, so [sighs and gasps] I guess I don't have a full beard right now. I I always keep it keep it pretty short. So, I I guess I could probably agree with that, too.

31:15 We're just going to We're on this agree train.

31:17 Yeah, we are. All right. Here's here's my my uh This might be my last one, then.

31:24 Okay.

31:25 All right. [clears throat] This is targeted to all my my dear my dear deep hobbyist friends. Uh, games don't have to be complex and hard to learn to have good depth and strategy.

31:42 I completely agree with this and there's not enough people that will admit that we are so like have this disease of needing this this huge box giant rule set to think that this game is is deep. I mean, you can just go as far as Go, which is one of the more simple rule sets. The rules fit on a card and one of the most complex games you can possibly play. But I'll let you give me some examples of where that's true for you.

32:14 Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that complex games aren't deep and don't have strategy. They do. I think largely they do. although some of them might be masquerading, but largely the complex games do have great deep strategy and I and I love that and I enjoy that. Um, but yeah, we've run into like so many games that are just like so simple on the surface, but you get playing them and you're like, "Oh, but if I do that, then, oh, that's going to happen, right?" And I think the depth is like definitely there in some of these games. like you can really noodle on them and there's a lot of a lot of strategy that can be had in that in that space. [clears throat]

32:58 I think games too often are especially games that are seen as light and really light. I think a lot of people conflate rules overhead with complexity and this idea of weight is is really tough. But I think the the best games are so are easy to learn, easy to table, yet every time you're playing it, your brain is kind of like engaged like, "Oh, there's this different lever I can possibly go pull or or um you know, you could have an incredibly dynamic depth game with just another player and player interaction where the game state is is constantly changing. In fact,

33:36 I just made a short on this one. Six sojourns from Red Raven Games." Oh yeah,

33:41 this is a review copy, everyone, but not getting paid to say anything about it. But that is a it's a it's it's a um area control game. And most area control games are these big sprawling huge experiences. Typically, you're not getting out of an area control game in less than an hour. This thing plays in like 30 minutes. And it's full-fledged area control. You're building uh homes and you're spreading across the board trying to control areas for points. But the hook is that you're all you do is buy one card and these cards have an action set on them. They also might have a special one-time ability or continuing ability and then they also have um the uh icons and you're just trying it's a set collection game where you're trying to collect different sets of icons. Red Raven's done this with things like um Creature Caravan in the past, but it's so simple cuz all you're doing is buying a card and just doing what the card says and you're in and out in a two-player game in [clears throat] 30 minutes. And it's I think it's one of it's their mediumsiz box. It's the same as um

34:40 their small sleeping god. So, I mean, it's probably more complex than what you're talking about, but it gives this great uh area control experience combined with set collection in such a short period of time. The rules are dead simple on it. You know, you can learn it in literally 5 minutes. And I just app the more I'm in the hobby, the more I appreciate that. I look across at my collection here and I have Gaia Project and Aridia and Elder Scrolls um Nucleium Tatawakan like you all these really kind of big complex experiences. I can't necessarily say that all of those are giving me a better more uh in-depth experience than the one I just described to you.

35:24 Yeah.

35:24 So, I I guess I agree.

35:27 I'm going to agree back with what you said. like there's there's a lot of good ones.

35:32 I am obsessed with this idea of it's like a a ratio of the amount of rules overhead it takes to get the amount of depth and these are two things that I measure on my platform called Cardboard. So what is in your line the best return on depth relative to the rules overhead if that makes sense?

35:52 Like in in the last night games lineup.

35:54 Yeah. Yeah.

35:57 Now I'm feeling self-conscious. I feel like I feel like we uh we like overexlain the rules just to make sure that there's no

36:07 We'll see.

36:07 There's no um No, I think I think Alpine Trails is really um a a good example. Now, I'm not saying it's the deepest game out there

36:17 by any relative depth,

36:20 but relative depth. Alpine Trails, you grab two tiles out of a bag. So, um, each tile's got like habitat on one side and trail and habitat on the other side. And you're stuck with those two tiles. You got to place them into your environment. But there's a lot of things going on because you're you've got four habitat areas that you're trying to get biggest size of. You're trying to get the longest trail going on. You're trying to make loops in your path so you earn waterfalls, which then have to be surrounded. And then you're trying to get points from campgrounds, but they can't be any closer than six miles from other campgrounds. And so you're always trying to like maximize the amount of points that you're you're you're uh scoring. And so I've had a lot of people come back to me and they're like, it was so simple. It was just like draw these two tiles, place them into your your network of of of trails and habitats.

37:11 But there was so much to think about because as you as your trail system gets bigger, there's more positions at which any tile can go. And so now all of a sudden your brain's getting a little heated about like, okay, but if I put it here, it's going to count towards this trail plus this habitat, you know, and it's surrounding this waterfall and and things like that. Again, not like the deepest of games, but it but surprisingly more deep than than you'd expect from like pull two p tiles out of a bag,

37:42 right? And those are the perfect games that you remind me of um Trailblazers. We have the travel version. I have the little clam thing that we'll take camping and just kind of travel around. But it is always surprises me

37:54 uh how crunchy that game is. In fact, when Jake pitched uh Alpine Trails to me, I was like, "Oh, this is right up our alley." because we love things like Trailblazer so much. Um, and confusing lands is similar, right?

38:05 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that one's that one's Yeah, that one's amazing because it's like so simple, right? You've got the two cards, you're looking at both sides, you take one and then you you know the other one's going to your opponent and like what are they going to, you know, work out of that and score? And then just yeah, the permutations of where you can put it and like all right, I'm going to take, you know, a hit of 10 points anytime I put a new scoring objective in there. So, like, is this going to right net me more than 10 points out of that? And yeah, love that.

38:35 Beautiful. No. So, now outside of your games, what is a game in your collection that delivers the best relative depth for you right now?

38:43 Uh, I should have come prepared with that.

38:46 Hey, this is your take.

38:49 It is my take.

38:50 Yeah.

38:50 Now you see how unprepared I am.

38:52 No, you're you're more prepared than than uh than I could have imagined. So, thank you for that. I'm just putting you here on the at the end on, you know, putting the spotlight on you.

39:01 Um, [clears throat] you know, okay. As as crazy as this one is, um,

39:10 like, uh, Bomb Busters is so simple.

39:12 Oh, so good,

39:14 right? It's it's amazing. Like that one we keep we're we're still I mean, we don't

39:19 we mix in a lot of other games. We're still playing through the missions on Bomb Busters and like

39:24 I mean, it's so easy, right? like, you know, figure out where two wires of the same number at and and snip them. And

39:32 that one just gets like that will

39:35 break your brain as well because yeah, that's it's a perfect example. Although it does the future missions stuff starts to get more and more complex as you go, but it's really a great way to kind of onboard people onto that. Like you could never throw them into one of those later missions out of the gates.

39:49 No. No. Yeah.

39:51 I didn't that first came out and won all the awards. I just didn't get it. And then I I I don't know why I decided to to buy. I think I was just looking for some co-op stuff for a family gathering and I was just so surprised and love that game. So good.

40:05 Yeah. Um but yeah, there's a bunch of them. I mean, uh Skull King, that one's been played by quite a few people. Yo ho,

40:13 again, just

40:14 real simple trick taking. Uh we recently I got a copy at Origins. I picked up a copy of Zombie Princess. Ah, I have only played Rebel Princess. Great.

40:25 Yeah. Yep. Zombies. Great. Yeah. Um, yeah. Just super simple, like, you know, games that a lot of people already know.

40:34 Um, just with some little twists, but yeah, really easy to pick up. Yeah.

40:38 Beautiful. Well, I think we made it to the end of your list, Nathan. Is that true?

40:42 Yeah, those were my That's the spices I got. I guess I'm not a very spicy guy. No, you know, maybe we just happen to find a couple of uh like-minded gentlemen here and uh hopefully in the comments we have some disagreements there. I think if I were to think back, I think the the um uh the what is it? The flipin right take is probably the most controversial there.

41:07 Surely no one agrees with the best.

41:09 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the only one we we technically um disagreed on, but I just I I can't necessarily disprove it right out of out of the gate. So,

41:19 so little subjective maybe.

41:21 I I when last time I looked I looked a few days ago uh it said on your website some games were coming soon to purchase. Where can they buy your new stuff right now?

41:30 Oh, you know what? There we we totally made an accident and didn't put our our buttons live on our website during Origins. They were supposed to go live. They they're all available on our website, but also many retailers have ordered. So hopefully your local retailer has um

41:46 who are some of these retailers that are going to be carrying them?

41:49 Oh, there's too many to name. Like

41:51 really,

41:52 there's Yeah, we we get orders from all across the United States. We don't have great reach outside of the United States. I'm sorry. We're still working on that desperately, but

42:02 um yeah, we have stores from all over the US that are ordering from us, so hopefully you can find it there. Um, yeah, if if if all else fails, you can come to our website and and we've enabled the buttons finally.

42:14 Yeah. So, so I can actually go

42:15 there's several people pinged us and they're like, "Ah, it's not."

42:18 Well, yeah. I looked on Origins right after meeting Jake and I was like, "Oh, that's weird. Why Why aren't we selling those there? Maybe maybe it's it's coming soon." So,

42:26 two two dummies is why.

42:29 Well, hopefully you didn't miss out on too many sales. Hopefully, there's still some people watching this thing uh after what we're close to an hour here. Uh, I appreciate you, Nathan, for being here. I really love what you all are doing. I love the story. I love that you and your brother are doing this together. I love that you all are are designing um all of this stuff. The art and the aesthetic is incredible. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. So, I implore everyone to go check out support indie publishers and and yeah, thanks for being here.

42:57 Thank you. I appreciate it.

42:59 All right. Bye, Nathan. I really appreciate it.